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humvee
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 10:47 pm 
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Hi all,

We, on the UDT, have been looking into the commonality (and sometimes lack if it) in the use of titles and naming "rules" for labels, menu's and screens in general in Joomla! for some time now and have made various submissions to the Dev team on this.

A recent issue that was raised in the Translation Work Group forum highlighted a further point regarding the use of "non-English" words to represent a particular function or label - the initial case was "Unarchived" which does not actually exist in the English language.

One additional area that is also being added to this are the Parameters and Special Parameters - what are needed, which are superfluous, which are rightly deemed as "special" etc,

We are now getting together with Devs to push forward a review of all of these issues and would ask if anyone has any suggestions in this respect to please post these below for our consideration and to have them added to the "melting pot"!

Thanks

Andy

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Last edited by humvee on Fri May 11, 2007 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rbuelund
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 12:04 pm 
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From the Danish Team we have the following words wich are hard to translate:

Unarchive
Unpublish
Manager (We have removed this word from all Menu Items in the backend)

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leadict
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 1:55 pm 
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Just to follow the discussion, these are some related threads:

1. Labelling and Inline wording:


2. Parameters Review:

          +++ Related Reports +++

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Last edited by leadict on Sun May 06, 2007 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pvh123
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 9:21 am 
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rbuelund wrote:
From the Danish Team we have the following words wich are hard to translate:

Unarchive
Unpublish



Unarchive is a strange word in its own. What you are saying is: "bring something back to its original state which has been archived". So IMHO the word "restore" is much more appropriate. These are also the two words used within IT for a long time, ie. Archive - Restore.

Unpublish is also a bit unreal. When one publishes something, it has been made available to the world (small or at large) and cannot be taken back from that world. Unless you publish something which contradicts the original puiblishing. You know positive and negative results in null!
So, in Joomla speak, we could speak be speaking about:  Available - Unavailable.

If that can be translated in Danish, you are all right.

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humvee
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 9:50 am 
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Thanks Pieter,

It is particularly these two words that have triggered this review following a discussion thread in the Translation Work Group forum, neither of them actually exist in the English language and as a result we are also looking for any other words and phrases that are similarly causing issues.

Thanks
Andy

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humvee
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:15 pm 
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Following on from previous discussions, I have put together a set of possible renamed icon labels for various processes:

Positive Actions:                           Negative Actions:

CONTENT TYPE ITEMS

Publish (ed)                               Withdraw (n)
Archive (d)                               Retrieve (d)

EXTENSION ITEMS

There is a question as to whether we maintain a single label for all Extensions:

Activate (d)                               Deactivate (d)

…or split these down further into Components, Modules, Plugins? If so then:

Components

Enable (d)                               Disable (d)

Modules

Publish (ed)                             Withdraw (n)

Plugins

Activate (d)                             Deactivate (d)


Please add your thoughts to these suggestions and advise on any issues that these might cause in alternate languages.

Thanks

Andy

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pvh123
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:00 pm 
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Looks good to me.
If you want you put everything under extensions that would imply the Compoments, Modules and Plugins.
In other words if you really want to "archive" a complete component (incl. module and plugin) than the extension would siffuce.
If, however, you want to apply the givien labels to the separate items, ie. a plugin or component, you have to separate into Components, Modules and Plugins.  Which makes it more flexible anyway.
I hope it is clear what I mean. 

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rbuelund
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 6:58 am 
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A little input from the Danish team:

The word withdraw is still a bit tricky. The danish translation of the word would be:

    Withdraw:  Træk tilbage
    Withdrawn: Trukket tilbage

That's a bit long ?

What about using the word Remove(d) insted ? This translates into the danish word Fjern.

As for components, modules and plugins:

The words Enable and Activate translates into the same danish word - Aktiver (Activate) and I think it would be fine to use the words Activate/Deactivate for both Components and Plugins. As for modules I'm a bit unsure if to use the same or Andy's suggestion ?

Good work - were getting there  :)

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humvee
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 9:07 am 
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Hi,

Thanks for the feedback

I have done a rudimentary translation of the words into French, German, Italian, Russian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Arabic (?) via the Google Translator and all seemed to pass ok.

I would however prefer to have folks from those locales validate them as well! Also all the many other languages that currently have translations.

Thanks

Andy

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rued
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 9:39 am 
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rbuelund wrote:
What about using the word Remove(d) insted ? This translates into the danish word Fjern.


I don't agree as Fjern (Remove) will meaning taking it away totally - confusing.  :)
Anyway, you don't have to translate word by word - you are free to use what's fitting in your language.

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rbuelund
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 9:55 am 
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Well actually this discussion, from my point of view, is about trying to find words which actually CAN get translated into for example danish - if that is possible. Instead of inventing new nonexisting words.
I agree that remove isn't the best - any suggestions ?

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rued
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 10:12 am 
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I'm not speaking of inventing words now, but about words having almost the same meaning because it would be almost impossible to find some fitting for all. And therefore we has to focus on finding the best English words who actually exists, and can be translated into others with almost the same meaning by using synonymous words in the translations - that's our job and it's doable without changing the core words all the way to fit every local translation.

Best possible and existing English words should be the goal.

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rbuelund
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 10:21 am 
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I agree - the best english words which can be translated with almost the same meaning. Problem is - I can't find a synonym for withdrawn that is suitable unless we use to words as mentioned earlier.
We have a word in danish called Tilbagetrukken - but that is about a person not a thing. But maybe the other nordic countries have input to, what word we could use as a suitable synonym?

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rued
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 10:46 am 
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Ok, for the Norwegian and probably also Danish and Swedish there could be possible to use
tilbakekalle (as in call back) or tilbaketrekke (as in draw back) etc.

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rbuelund
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 10:51 am 
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Maybe - but in the danish dictionary the word Tilbagekalde only aims at a staement - Tilbagekalde en udtalelse - not a document, article or anything like that... :(

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humvee
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 10:52 am 
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Yes,

I agree, it is not going to be straight forward to get a "one size fits all solution". The aim is to get this as close as possible to a "universally translatable" word whilst retaining the correct base English meaning as defined for Joomla! production.

Further brain racking on the Unpublish (ed) route:

so far: withdraw (n) remove (d)

new suggestion: discontinue (d) recall (ed)

Any comments?

Andy

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rued
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 11:04 am 
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From my point of view recall (ed) is perfect. :)

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humvee
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 11:14 am 
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rued wrote:
From my point of view recall (ed) is perfect. :)


I was not sure at first but the more I thought about it the better it looked. "It is taken out of circulation - potentially it might return, or its "removal" or "discontinuation" might be permanent!!"

Now just try for consensus again ;)

Andy

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rued
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 11:50 am 
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Rest of your list seems fine with this new input, and I would like to see the "split" between components, modules and plugins.

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rbuelund
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 9:47 am 
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humvee wrote:
rued wrote:

I was not sure at first but the more I thought about it the better it looked. "It is taken out of circulation - potentially it might return, or its "removal" or "discontinuation" might be permanent!!"


Is this the discription in the english dictionary ? It might work - but does recall (in english language) refer to articles/text too ?

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Last edited by rbuelund on Sun May 13, 2007 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rued
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:02 am 
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Wiktionary about recall:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/recall

Quote:
Noun
  1. The action or fact of calling someone or something back.

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rbuelund
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:05 am 
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Well - then we mighth have consensus here  :D

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humvee
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:23 am 
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Not only the definition as above - but Oxford Dictionary (my "bible" ;))talks of calling back computer data; bring out of a state of inattention;

I would also like the  consensus to stretch a little wider than the three or four of us so far ;)

We have a few more days before a recommendation needs submitting and Infograf has kindly posted onto translation private forum for me, so hopefully one or two others will stop by.

If not I guess we will have the consensus then :)

Andy

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Atrevidoweb
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 5:58 pm 
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Recall can be translated into Spanish more easily (retirar) even if it's not completely accurate - there is not a single word that has all the meanings - it's fair enough. Also retrieve it's ok replacing "unarchive" and can be translated as "recuperar".

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humvee
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 11:51 pm 
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This is the list that has been submitted for inclusion:

Positive Actions:                           Negative Actions:

CONTENT TYPE ITEMS

Publish (ed)                               Recall(ed)
Archive (d)                               Retrieve (d)

EXTENSION ITEMS

Split these down further into Components, Modules, Plugins:

Components

Enable (d)                               Disable (d)

Modules

Publish (ed)                             Recall (ed)

Plugins

Activate (d)                             Deactivate (d)


Thanks to those of you that contributed to this discussion.

Andy

ps I would also add that I have also previously submitted a separate list of requests for consistent naming of column/detail headers in the various managers etc

[Edit: removed single extension option as left in in error. Andy]

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Last edited by humvee on Sun May 20, 2007 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rued
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 7:29 am 
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Nice,
thank you Andy.  8)

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rbuelund
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 7:53 am 
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Good work - when wil this eventually be implemented in the english language pack ?

I think we should go for the solution with Activate / Deactivate for both com, mod and plugs.

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pvh123
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:18 am 
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rbuelund wrote:

I think we should go for the solution with Activate / Deactivate for both com, mod and plugs.


Great Andy. I agree with rbuelund  about the com/mods/plugins.

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humvee
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 11:07 am 
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rbuelund wrote:
Good work - when wil this eventually be implemented in the english language pack ?

I think we should go for the solution with Activate / Deactivate for both com, mod and plugs.

I believe the intention is that this will be for RC1 when it happens :) Certainly for these specific changes - not too sure about the extended lists that I submitted (these lists were created following a review by myself, Leandro and Chad btw) whilst we have been preparing Help Screen development (another story altogether ;))

I have corrected my post above as I have submitted the list with the split list of extensions rather than the one size fits all version - sorry for error in coying over :-[ It was done this way as I had only had one comment one way or the other at the time. You Pieter and rbueland have added your preference after I had submitted the list...

Regards

Andy

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Last edited by humvee on Sun May 20, 2007 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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leadict
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:57 pm 
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Now we could consider the other issue mentioned by Chris in the thread placed at Translation board:
leadict wrote:
"A single English word used in two different contexts requires two different words in the target language".

Example: "Archive" used as verb and noun (translation to Spanish => verb: "Archivar" | noun: "Archivo"). If we look into the Administration we can found two screens using this word:

- Article Manager => In this screen "Archive" is used as verb.
- Add Menu Item => In this screen "Archive" is used as noun.


Maybe in another languages could affect to another words.

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