Joomla! Discussion Forums

just wondering. can anyone tell us how much money has been raised via donations, google ads, etc. and where that money has gone?

just interested ...

Oh my - now you have opened up another huge can of beans....  Read the other threads on this forum about Joomla [possibly] not compling with the law (In certain peoples opinion) ...

Edit:
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,160115.0.html

Here is $10,000
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,127912.0.html

[quote="http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,160115.msg784203.html#msg784203"]
Shayne (manuman) is member of the OSM Board and Board Treasurer. He has indicated that financial reporting will be provided following the May 2007 Board meeting.
[/quote]

Still waiting... 

Also note note that the previously published figures have now been removed

bugger. didn't mean to .. honest guv.

but it's over a year now. i'm sure many have donated and i'm pretty sure google revenue would be fairly decent also ... i also imagine that a fair chunk of it has gone, so just interested to see where my donation went .. as i'm sure others are

Edited my last post to provide more references for you

i read that top thread you posted and it seems like any day now we should see the accounts, which is nice ... will be interesting to see if someone breaks down the revenue streams for us, i.e. what percentage is google, online donations and other donations and if we get expenses broken down ... i know i'm probably asking too much

As soon as it is all compiled I believe Shayne will be posting the amount of community donations to the project.  I will alert him of this thread the next time I speak to him.  As for reporting requirements, I believe OSM is not *required* to publish information on finances to anyone but the IRS and the state of New York.  That doesn't mean that OSM will not endeavor to provide relevant information, just that they are not legally bound to.

Louis

thank you for your response ...

i appreciate the legalities involved but this is a community driven project and i think the community has a right to know, legal or not, on where the money has come from and where it has been spent. that is, if we still are a community driven project 

Noted.

The OSM Meeting was in May. The published guidelines OSM  established for themselves is to provide financial reporting within 30 days of the OSM board meeting and budget reporting once each quarter. They just had their first meeting and Shayne indicated that international banking was an issue, so there might be reporting problems to resolve.

If OSM decides not to follow published guidelines, it is certainly well within their rights to do so. I do ask, though, out of respect to the broader community, and to not make this non-issue an issue, that the guidelines be updated to set expectation. That would be very much appreciated.

Personally, I believe it's a good idea to provide very high level financial reporting. I am not at all interested - nor do I think it's a good idea - to provide line item expense reports. Please - no detail - we have enough challenges the way it is! But, very broad data like has been provided in the past would be nice - four or five broad categories for revenue (ex. google ads, donations, t-shirt sales, other) and also for expenditures (ex., travel, bribes, Joomla! Jet, other).

But, it certainly is not time to get impatient. There is still time for people to respond within the published timeframe as they initially indicated the would do. There have been a few other things going on this past several weeks. Why - the tabloid blog headlines and mailing list activity, alone, is enough to take people off-task.

I haven't forgotten about this, either, and I did plan on gently bumping this issue if it got too far past June. I do not expect any problems in this area.

Thanks,
Amy

Let me know if I can help in any way. By the end of the day I am a professional auditor, working for a BIG4 company with quite good knowledge of US GAAP.

Great to know Ivo   I'll pass that on too.

Cheers,

Louis

Hi All,

This information should be out by weeks end.

Cheers
Shayne

See ^^ Told ya

Louis

I am just so curious in the donation amount of all those commercial companies out there who make a lot of money doing business with Joomla! 

FYI from the OSM FAQ:

3. Where does Open Source Matters get its money?

The major sources of revenue are: advertising on the joomla.org  websites, donations, royalties on books, and the Joomla! Shop. Contractual rules stipulate that the exact income from advertising and royalties may not be published.

4. What does Open Source Matters spend money on?

The major categories of expenses are:

·        Supporting the operation of the joomlacode.org;

·        Supporting the presence of Joomla! booths and attendance of core team members at tradeshows and Joomla! Days,

·        Funding core team summits and other smaller meetings,

·        Accounting and legal expenses,

·        Various other expenses involved in operating an open source project.

Me, too!   

Who are you thinking of ?
Are you speaking of the commercial joomla extensions developers ?

[EDIT: Reread the question's wording carefuly - Removed wrong assumption above. - Sorry - Peace ]

I've given - three times! And certainly others, maybe even especially those who financially benefit and are very concerned about financial reporting - are also giving, as well.

Peace,
Amy

BTW - Beat - might want to check the signature rules there! 

Amy,

Thanks to you and everyone who has supported Joomla! financially.

Elin

And to all of you who have taken roles serving this community, thank you very much, Elin,

Amy

All,

My nonprofit/charity experience here in the US has taught me that US-based charities (such as Open Source Matters) have a very clear responsibility for reporting financial and other information to the public.

This is as it should be, given that contributions made to US-based charities are exempt from taxes. The acceptance of tax deductible contributions by OSM creates a public trust responsibility, and a legal obligation to insure that the people's interest is protected (as per IRS code). OSM, like all charities in the US, are quasi-public entities, not private ones.

You can read all about the federal IRS disclosure requirements which read in part:

In general, exempt organizations must make available for public inspection certain annual returns and applications for exemption, and must provide copies of such returns and applications to individuals who request them.  Copies usually must be provided immediately in the case of in-person requests, and within 30 days in the case of written requests.  The tax-exempt organization may charge a reasonable copying fee plus actual postage, if any.

More specifics on what federal forms etc need to be filed can be read here

Additionally, as a New York registered nonprofit corporation, Open Source Matters must also file reports to the state Attorney General's office. Requirements for state reporting here.


Having kept the books and filed the forms (both federal and state) for nonprofits in the very recent past, I can tell you that a whole lot of financial information has to be made public. For an interesting example of an IRS reporting form, check this 990 out for the Software Freedom Law Center.

OSM's financials will have to be reported as per these two reporting requirements (federal & state) However, OSM can choose to release the data in other ways as well- more specific, more general, quarterly, annually, etc. Personally, I would encourage the OSM board to release more specific information, more regularly than every year, and not 6-10 months after the end of the fiscal year, which is about the time lag for the federal and state reporting deadlines.

Just as important is a release/discussion of the project's budget for the future, as it will be the best reflection of the organization/project's priorities.

I guess the Joomla community will soon be able to express their opinions of what OSM decides to release per Shayne's post above.

Cheers,

Tom

Personally, I do not consider a forum post to be a "written request". They may see it that way as well. With that said, I think that if OSM says they will display the numbers, then we should all be patient.

@Tom - This is not directed towards you, but to everyone. I do not want you to think that I am criticizing anything that you said. It looks like you did your homework and although I did not check your facts, it does look complete. Thank you!

I would agree that a forum post is not an automatic written request. No offense taken in the slightest

I would, however, think an email to OSM's official contact page would constitute a written request. I would also think an IM chat with a OSM official would also constitute a written request.

OSM can best avoid any confusion by simply posting its 990 on the OSM website, which has become a common practice for many charities/nonprofits. (And also cuts down on the admin costs of mailing/copying/replying to requests, while also being in the spirit of compliance and openess.)

If you have reviewed the materials presented on the OSM webiste you will know that OSM is not yet a 501c3, but rather is in the process of registering with the IRS to obtain that designation. At that point all relevant tax laws will apply and public filings will be made,, including the filing of a publicly available 990.  In other words, we can't post our 990 because there is no 990 to post yet.

Please rest assured that we have an excellent accountant and a board committed to living up to its fiduciary responsibilities, i.e. insuring that there is no fraud or self-dealing going on.

As posted above, OSM has substantial expenses in operating joomlacode.org (which makes easy download of Joomla! and many extensions possible as well as providing this free service to 3PDs who choose to use joomlacode.org to make their extensions available. If you know anything about the costs of operating a website with the number of downloads that joomlacode.org serves you know that those costs are large. I think we are thankful with the stability of the new site.

We are lucky--and incredibly grateful-- to receive incredible hosting and support for the forum and other sites from Rochen.

We have substantial expenses in the promotion of Joomla! at events like Linux WOrld an all of the great Joomla! Days that people keep organizing. THis promotion is highly professional and is a reason for Joomla!'s growing adoption by computer professonals and continuing growth of excitment about 1.5.

All of the books, articles and other materials that I have read about open source projects (as well as many other types of projects) stress the need for periodic face to face interaction of the people involved. In a worldwide project such as Joomla! making that happen takes a lot of resourses which we also support with OSM funds.

Of course the most important contributions that Joomla! gets are not monetary: the amazing work of the Core Team, the help provided by the work groups, the creativity of the 3PD community, everyone who is helpful on the forums, feedback and promotion from the user community.  and others I'm sure I am forgetting.

Thanks so much to everyone who makes Joomla! possible!

modified to fix spelling and grammar.

Hi Elin,

Having founded a few charities in the US, I know the complexity and long struggle that it can be to do your application for exemption, and I certainly appreciate what you and the OSM board are going through. However, I must disagree with the suggestion that because OSM has not yet applied for its exemption status, that it is not required file 990s or otherwise behave like an approved 501c(3).

At the moment of its inception, any organization that intends to become a 501c(3) must begin to behave like one, as the application for exemption will be retroactive to your formation date once it is approved by the IRS. The good news is that contributions to a pre-application organization are still tax exempt, and your donors can take the exemption on the belief that the organization will soon (within 27 months) apply for its exempt status.

Along with that opportunity, however, comes a responsibility to behave like an exempt organization.

Whether or not your pre-application charity needs to file a 990 is actually more about the level of revenue than application status. If OSM received more than $25,000 in either of the 2005 or 2006 tax years, particularly if it received contributions for which donors have been told they will receive a charitable deduction, then OSM will need to comply with the IRS code and file 990's.

Unless OSM is exempt from filing by meeting one of these criteria (including the $25k exemption), then it must behave like an exempt organization The IRS states very clearly that an organization waiting for exempt status must file 990s on time, and that they are then subject to public disclosure.

I offer this as advice to the OSM board that is needs to do its 990s for 2005 and 2006 (and 2007) regardless of the status of  your c(3) application, if you are receiving contributions for which your donors are expecting to take a tax deduction, and if your revenue was more than $25,000 in either of those years.

Good luck.

Great to see you are one of those who donated, really appreciate that!

What I want to point out is that contributing to this project can be done in so many ways. Answering questions in the forum, help out on IRC, support with documentation and for developers share back code. Actually contributing back in this way is the most hardest thing to do, it costs a lot of time and the only thing you get back is the energy of this community (and of course the good feeling you did something that matters).

If you cannot contribute in this way, donating is also a way to help out. I think the commercial developers must be so damn busy with making some money that they are not able to contribute any code, and are not able to donate...it is sad but true, the number of commercial companies that donate can be counted on one hand...

Wilco -

Why wouldn't I contribute? I am able. I care about the project. And, I have taken so much. It's the right thing to do.

You can count the commercial entities who donate on one hand? That is sinful. Frankly, isn't it a little risky for a business not to invest in a strong Joomla! org? Sorry, Wilco, but I find that shocking. Some people are making enough to buy homes and very expensive cars - the kinds of car I'll never own. I thought businesses who profited from Joomla! were helping financially support operations? 

We have some work to do in this community. I see a lot of pointed questions shooting at Joomla org all of the time. Why is the free stuff taking so long to finish? Why isn't there more information? Why don't you tell me what was discussed at the summit (after being pointed twice to the blog with half a dozen summit posts!) Why isn't the ACL improved?

These complaints, of course, only come from the minority, but they tend to be the ones who profit the most from Joomla!. Why is that? It's enough to break your Joomla! heart. I have seen pointed questions asked by people and even after hearing reasonable answers stated politely, innuendos of suggested conspiracy or irresponsibility or that things are, for whatever reason, not done as they believe is the right way.

Time to address these things. Open source does not mean free as in beer, or that others do the work and you get to take it and complain if it isn't to your perfect liking! It means we all work together as a community and share the benefit of one another's contributions.

We, in the community, need to save our great advice! Instead, grab a rock! Help with the work as you are able. People are far more likely to listen to advice if you have demonstrated a willingness and consistency in participating with the community in a positive way.

Have no fear, Wilco, we'll get there! Even the most undisciplined child can be saved!

All together, As a whole,
Amy

Snow White's seven dwarfs wish to create websites.

Bashful is still a college kid and wants to build a community website for his class. He chose Joomla cos of the wide variety of free GPL extensions.

Doc wants to build a website that allows families of his patients to monitor the meals his hospital provides. He chose Joomla because Joom-Meal (commercial license) allows him to do that.

Dopey is a hip hop artist and wants to build a website that allows him to add his own live music on his site. He saw Media MP3 Player (commercial license) and decided it's the perfect reason to choose Joomla.

Grumpy loves taking photos and started a Joomla site using zOOm gallery (GPL) to manage his photos. All of a sudden, development and updates on zOOm stopped, with several bugs unsolved. Dejected, Grumpy decided to leave Joomla for Drupal. However, just when he was about to see months of his work go to waste, he came across Simple Image Gallery PRO (commercial license). This time, he's staying with a commercial extension to make sure he gets all the support he needs.

Happy thinks of starting a site for fellow hardware enthusiasts, but require a professional way to allow his users to provide reviews for up and coming gadget. He found jReviews (commercial license) and is delighted. Joomla is his ideal choice.

Sleepy is an avid blogger but doesn't wish to use free online blogs because he wants to be able to send newsletters to his readers. Joomla seem to be a decent candidate, and lo and behold! there's YaNc (creative commons license) for all his newsletter needs!

Sneezy is the CEO of a huge portal company, and owns several portals serving different needs. He had used several different commercial and non-commercial CMS (including Joomla) for his company's different sites. Now that his organization is doing well, he's faced with a new dilemma: how is he going to combine all his sites so that they share the same user base, greatly improving their net worth? He thought of getting a team of software developers together to achieve this, until his CIO informed him of Multisite Administration PRO (commercial license) that allows him to do exactly what he wants, with the professional support he can expect from a commercial software. Sneezy decided to stay with Joomla.

All the dwarfs donated to the Joomla project (apart from Grumpy, who's just a grumpy stingy old man anyway). Sneezy, being the CEO of an enterprise, donated large amounts to support the project.
-------------------------------------

Anyone still have questions as to how commercial/non-GPL extensions contribute financially to Joomla? Or do I need to come up with a simpler explanation...

Incredibly irrelevant to the topic and is certainly looks as if you have an axe to grind .... I hope you find a good stone to grind it on

Patronizing people doesn't get you as far as sincere and logical discourse.  Whats even better than that is the ability to accept that other people disagree with you view and be civil and adult about it without having to shout them down and wear them down with exhaustive rhetoric ad nauseum.

Can we please keep this thread clean please.  The question asked was answered as best it can be done by the treasurer and president of OSM.  The information is forthcoming.

Good grief.

Louis

Agreed to a fault and I apologize, but I'm not sorry for my behavior because like you said, and I quote you, "Can we please keep this thread clean please.  The question asked was answered as best it can be done by the treasurer and president of OSM." until some people started going into the whole "Commercial developers are evil" nonsense again (and hijacking this thread with what was a personal agenda that was utterly uncalled for), and my post was a reaction to that. It looks like everyone has an axe to grind, I'm just following the crowd.

What's more, i find my post rather amusing

Good grief, indeed