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Moderator Note: This topic is split up from another, since it was going off-topic. Please note that the first post reads a bit strange, but this is because the topic is split.

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It would all be heartbreaking except we have to remember - Open-Source is still NEW.  We're still learning HOW to build management systems in a non-commercial world.  These are growing pains and they are much, much bigger than just Mambo and Joomla!.

Joomla! was the first reaction: "let's just get the hell out".  The alternative, Martin's choice was: "we can fix this by shear power of will".  Both are admirable - neither is enough.  Both camps are filled with uncertainty about who owns what and how will decide on direction (or NOT decide, which may be just as bad). 

Who OWNS Joomla!?  Who receives revenue from the sites?  Who appoints the guy who can ban me from this forum?  We at Mambo believed that we KNEW who owned our sites - but we were mistaken.

We have to FORGET the old corporate top-down model.  We have to stop acting like commercial organizations that work for profit.  We need to INVENT the new model.  History will either remember us for it, or history will not remember Open-Source at all.

Democracy, sadly, is NOT the answer.  We cannot allow everyone, regardless of experience, effort or ability to vote on key issues or to sit in "supervisory" positions.  Yet the Top-Down model is equally destined for failure.  We need our own system.

I think that the Mambo Foundation was a great idea - if it was done in good faith - which it decidedly was NOT.  Nobody can OWN the business or the rights or the domain names.  The FOUNDATION must own everything as a community-driven not-for-profit corporation.  It must be 100% responsible to the users and developers and supporters.  Offer anyone a million dollars and it is unlikely that they will refuse to sell even their own sister.  Nobody can have that authority.  Positions might be elected, but first you have to "attain" the right status - in a manner that is fair, transparent and agree to by the entire community.  Changes in direction should be held to vote by "qualified" members and passed only by a high-majority vote. 

I keep looking at the MMORPG and thinking that they almost have the foundation for our Open-Source world: transparent scores based on publicly verified accomplishments in all of the key areas.  When your score says "coding: 800, charisma: 500, timeliness: 900, reliability: 1200, user-support: 800" then you should be considered as a candidate for the board.  Or something along those lines.  No arguments, no lies, no way to cheat: you do good, you are recognized.  An awsome score with zero charisma?  Nope... you can't be a candidate.  The idea being that those who best represent what the community stand for are the ones who should represent that community.  (I have actually mapped this model out extensively and the more you play with it, the better it works).

Open-Source needs a new model.  We can't just keep running and pouting and throwing stones while we try to be the next "Bill Gates of Open-Source".  I cannot say what that new model will be - but we really, really need to find it.

Sharing software for free and in source to do as you please is as old as computers itself. If you are interested in a nice history about this, read the introduction to the book "Producin Open Source Software - How to run a successful Free Software Project" by Karl Fogel.

Hackwar wrote:If you are interested in a nice history about this, read the introduction to the book "Producin Open Source Software - How to run a successful Free Software Project" by Karl Fogel.

Sweet.  His book and other works are online at http://producingoss.com/.  Thanks for the info, it's quickly becoming an obsession for me.  This is going to keep me busy AND happy.

Open Source Software publications downloads
http://www.open-sef.org/downloads/open_source_software/
Includes:
- Producing Open Source Software  (enhanced PDF and CHM)
- Understanding Open Source and Free Software Licensing  (PDF)
- The Cathedral and the Bazaar  (CHM)

As much as I love open source, the most disheartening fact is the complete lack of integrity among some of the leaders of some of these projects. Having spent 20+ years in a fiduciary capacity, the ethical short-comings prevalent in these projects is appalling. One can expect that as the governmental use of open source increases (i.e. Massachusetts, U.S.A.), the governmental oversight will increase, and the standard ethical rules will prevail. The stuff that goes on now is laughable as to how unbelievably unethical it is. No full disclosure. No ethics rules. I cannot wait until Eliot Spitzer gets a hold of some sleazy open source developer with no ethics. I will have a toast and smile. They will deserve it.

My hat is off to Martin Brampton.
He was trying to contribute some good in a difficult situation.
His personal moral compass was violated and he did the right thing.
I hope he joins the Joomla community and adds his valuable contributions.
I will welcome him.
Joomla users will welcome him.
(don't know about the core dev political issues, and don't care)
Smart guy, great components, a valuable resource to all open source users.

I will always admire an individual who puts ethical considerations above personal relations.
Too many projects are tarnished by ethical lapses fueled by personal alliances.
Even Joomla.
I have had numerous contacts regarding my position on certain Joomla core dev ethical issues.
Obviously these contacts support my view.
Duh.
All you need is a brain.
Lie your ass off in public and people still know you are lying.
Fool yourself that you have mislead the masses - they know, you are the clueless one.
When ethics takes the front-seat and the commercial interest the back-seat, then ask me to stand down.

Bad situation at Mambo.
Too bad.
My prediction - the commercial interests will do something really stupid which will be the final death knell.

The best thing we can do as open source proponents is to extend an olive branch to these Mambo developers. Given the self-centered antics I have seen so far, I do not expect this to happen. Linus is an extraordinary individual who created an extraordinary environment for contribution and growth. While the Joomla project may aspire to this level, it will not happen in the current environment. Selflessness is needed. Not present at this point. Egos prevail.

Another post by kenmcd for the powers-that-be to ignore.
Don't care.
Don't know why I continue to post them.
Always hoping I guess.
My obvious ignorance and/or continual wishfulness at work.

Who cares - back to doing something useful.

kenmcd wrote:The best thing we can do as open source proponents is to extend an olive branch to these Mambo developers. Given the self-centered antics I have seen so far, I do not expect this to happen. Linus is an extraordinary individual who created an extraordinary environment for contribution and growth. While the Joomla project may aspire to this level, it will not happen in the current environment. Selflessness is needed. Not present at this point. Egos prevail.

Another post by kenmcd for the powers-that-be to ignore.
Don't care.
Don't know why I continue to post them.
Always hoping I guess.
My obvious ignorance and/or continual wishfulness at work.

Who cares - back to doing something useful.

We have had so much muck thown at us since the post split period, it's becoming rather predictable to the point of banal. Yes I know about the poisoness backchannels where rumours are spread.

I've seen quite a few posts like this and others which alway intimate wrong doings by the very people who care passionately about Joomla and keeping it free of the sort of interference we've witnessed at Mambo.  Such assertions or comparisons are highly unfair and without warrent or foundation (pardon the pun).

Some of the rumours circulating are about as accurate as saying core devs have been abducted by aliens.  It is about time people spent more energy in helping rather than criticising and sniping from the sidelines.

Do you have any idea how demotivating for the team this type of statement is to people who give up endless hours to make Joomla for everyone, you included kenmcd?  Do you have any idea how much pain generalistic statements such as this cause?

If you have something to say that is factual and requires action, I will personally do my best to ensure things that need fixing get fixed.  But please do me and the team the courtesy to present real allegations/arguements rather window dressing innuendo presented here.

I will not, however, stand by and let slanderous unfounded allegations be made at me or my team mates without saying something.

If you have something to say that concerns you kenmcd, please PM me and I"m more than happy listen to what concerns you.

My "accusations" on some of these issues have been well documented.

Other favoritisim issues may have been handled without my knowledge.
I do not have access to the certain resources to determine the resolution.

If you do not like the discussion, put your house in order.
Eliminate the obvious conflicts of interest in an ethical and morally defensible manner.
While I do understand that these statements may discourage some developers, that is not my problem.
Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas.
You want the moral high ground - earn it.
Persons of the highest quality may have their reputations tainted by their associations.

Continue to defend morally and ethically indefensible positions (and people) based on old alliances prepare to be painted with the same brush.
I do not know you.
I only know your actions and your perceived alliances.

You may be a wonderful ethical and moral person - I have no idea.
I do know I have absolutely no respect for the lack of ethics and the lack morality exhibited by certain people you may be associated with - and that association implies tacit acceptance.

All groups should expel members detrimental to their image and their final goals.
Failure to do so exposes the group to the kind of opinions you are questioning now.
I am just one of the few who has the audacity to say it.
 
Your reaction is exactly why I know this is a futile exercise.
Instead of addressing the real issue, the reaction will again be to attack the attacker.
Real ethics will never enter the discussion.
Please, shock the hell out of me.
Say "yes, we have some real scumbags around here who we need to get rid of."
I will be holding my breath waiting for that epiphany.

I knew this to be the reaction.
So again, why bother?
Another useless waste of breath.
My own fault for even engaging in these silly debates again.

So again, off to do something useful for Joomla users.
This is obviously not productive.

Ken why don't you answer Peter's question and give us some examples? You write pamphlets about ethics  but I can't read what you think is going wrong with Joomla.
In my personal opinion the only usefull criticism is constructive criticism. So maybe you could write how you think Joomla can become an even better project?

May I (own POV)?
1. get a plan together and make it public. What is Joomla going to be in the next few years / major versions? There has NEVER been a clear statement about where this project is going, simply because it has never been defined by anyone. If it has, it was never communicated.

Eliel Saarinen: "There must always be an end in view, and the end must not be final."

2. whenever you critizise, you do not get any answers to the things you critique, you only get back critizism about you critizising the hard work of all the team. look above. I could extract the points Ken makes, but I'll leave that to him. His english is better by far. So: accept critizism (as Brad says he does), do not try to always get back at the person but at least try to understand the reasons behind the posts: not trying to stir trouble, but trying to get the project moving into more open waters and get some answers. I have posted more precise questions in 1.0.x forums just before..
3. communicate more. there seems to be a team, or working group, or whatever you want to call it, whose task is or should be to keep all these 35000 (soon) members and passers-by updated with current informations. the dev blog is good for technical news (that's why it's on the dev site), but there is no information about what's going on, and every time the roadmap mentions an estimated date and the release is missed, there are tons! of questions and threads about the whys and when.. every time! why can there be no information before, someone who keeps things current and usefull?

Of topic indeed a few posts ago.. There's just no real place here to discuss such a bit "hot" topics..

We are going way off-topic here, so I rather have a new discussion. I will somehow split this up. Will react later.

frozenJim wrote:Open-Source needs a new model.  We can't just keep running and pouting and throwing stones while we try to be the next "Bill Gates of Open-Source".  I cannot say what that new model will be - but we really, really need to find it.

FreezyJim ,

Looks like you have a doctorate paper to write.

If you do not like the discussion, put your house in order.
Eliminate the obvious conflicts of interest in an ethical and morally defensible manner.
While I do understand that these statements may discourage some developers, that is not my problem.

It will be your problem when they stop developing the project and you have to go run something else because you badgered the hand that was feeding you into stopping the chow line!

If you think things can be run better then go find us all something that is!
We will all be glad to hear about what you found...

But keep complaining about the only thing you have and soon it will leave and you will have nothing!
Is what you do have now better run than no project to run at all?

Think about it!

Open Source doesn't mean you have a say in how a project is run or coded...
What it does say is if you don't like how it's being done you have a right to do it yourself the way you want it to be done!
And if that isn't an option then go find some project that does everything you want and will put up with your bitching!
Good Luck with that one! ROFLMAO!

mediamagnate wrote:

frozenJim wrote:Open-Source needs a new model.  We can't just keep running and pouting and throwing stones while we try to be the next "Bill Gates of Open-Source".  I cannot say what that new model will be - but we really, really need to find it.

FreezyJim ,

Looks like you have a doctorate paper to write.

Thank you for that most excellent reply!  I feel the same way.

While it sounds like bitching, I believe that the many who are labeled as "trolls" and "complainers" are actually trying to help.  As I read all of the posts, I get the sense that there is a huge level of frustration because somehow, our community-driven projects are not driven by the community.  They are being GIVEN to the community, but not driven by it.  I think that the bulk of the "trolls" may be the ones who have the right idea.  (Some are, of course, just trolls)

If you drop the pride/profit motivator; community-driven will always win over corporate when you speak of software.  35,000 or 64,000 users with a clear path to follow and a sense of trust will always produce a better product in the long run than even a Microsoft sized dev-group fueled only by corporate requirements.

Community-driven means that the heirarchy is organic.  At the bottom, even if the lowliest troll has no rights to begin with, his path should be clear as to how he can, by contribution and cooperation, attain the loftiest position.  More of a meritocracy than a democracy.

At the top, the "Benevolent Dictator" position should be open to those who have proven their vision, willingness and ability - and that BD will always then be someone who would be willing to step down a bit in order to let the better man be voted into the BD position (Voted in by members who have attained THEIR semi-lofty position by proving their vision, willingness and ability).

I don't think that too many people believe that everyone must vote on every decision.  But I do believe that many people want to see that control comes from the bottom and ultimately results in a leadership that responds to them.

The most important weapon in the Open-Source arsenal is transparency.  Any time you ask a straight question and don't get a straight answer, it is time to consider some form of improvement in the system. 

Asphynx wrote:Open Source doesn't mean you have a say in how a project is run or coded...
What it does say is if you don't like how it's being done you have a right to do it yourself the way you want it to be done!
And if that isn't an option then go find some project that does everything you want and will put up with your bitching!
Good Luck with that one! ROFLMAO!

Right, you mean "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY".  Thank you for making my point so perfectly. 

You may insist on this interpretation of Open-Source.  But you will not have the best product.  You will force others to "the highway" and that's a LOSS, not a gain.

Trying to recommend that a project improve itself should not be considered an attack.  It is an attempt to be constructive, to make something BETTER than it currently is.

We have a way to go yet before we see the first community-driven open-source CMS.  I don't mean it as an insult - it's just the natural result of this being a new idea.  We don't know HOW to work from a non-corporate bottom-up management system.  The pain you feel is like that of a baby growing it's first teeth.  You can knock the teeth out, or you can look to the future.

Well said.


(Note to moderators please when splitting posts from pother topics please leave a note in the old topic to give the new location)

Think that the people posting here are experienced enough to find the topic by themselves . Anyway, created a reply that the rest of the discussion can be found here.

Right, you mean "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY".  Thank you for making my point so perfectly.  

No it means if I decide to give you a lift free of charge and I want to take the highway if you INSIST on going in a different way then you have two choices...
Drive yourself or get out of my car!

When you start doing the code you can say how the code is done!
When you start running the website then you can say how the website is run...
When you ADD something to the project then you can say my way is better!

But just registering on a message board does not make you an integral part of the development team nor a manager into how things are being done!

Community Driven in Open Source is a community of DEVELOPERS not users!
the Developers say how a project is run!
As a COURTESY they allow you to offer your suggestions!
But they are not obligated one way or another to do what YOU tell them to do or to do things to make YOU happy!
If you think it is so bad then show me a place that is better? Mambo?
Even the Devs don't have a say there!

you have a right to suggest things you want the code to do!
you have a right to ask if somethying can be added!

you don't have a right to bitch because you are not a developer!
As far as OPEN SOURCE is conerned you are NOT part of the OPEN SOURCE community! you are not contributing to the project!
Open Source is not about the USERS!
It is about the DEVS!
the only right open source gives you is the ability to change the code any way you want!
It does not give you the right to DEMAND a code the way you want it either!
It does not give you the right to tell others how to make the code or administer it to you!

Brian - I see those sour grapes are still lingering on your pallette....

http://perens.com/OSD.html

No where here does it say that users have the right to complain and bitch at the folks who wrote the program!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source

Of note:

Open source software — software whose source code is published and made available to the public, enabling anyone to copy, modify and redistribute the source code without paying royalties or fees. Open source code evolves through community cooperation. These communities are composed of individual programmers as well as very large companies. Some examples of open source initiatives are Linux, Eclipse, Apache, Tomcat web server, Moodle, Mozilla, and various projects hosted on SourceForge and elsewhere.

Which are you FJ? an Individual programmer or a very large company?
I didn't see a listing for whining freeloaders who registered for a messageboard in there anywhere!

While it sounds like bitching, I believe that the many who are labeled as "trolls" and "complainers" are actually trying to help

Then people really should try to convey their ideas without bitching, attacking and rumor mongering, because then it may be seen as trying to help.  Otherwise it is bitching, attacking and rumor mongering.  Because if it sounds like bitching, that is what it is.  It doesn't take an intellectual giant to realize that.

Half of the battle of getting things done is the approach.  People can wax poetic on how this and that should be done, but if they do it in a way that makes people feel like their backs are against the wall, eventually all that is going to be seen is the wall itself.

Good posts Ken and Jim. While some may see enlightened reality as less than productive, my belief is that these feelings and posts do help the community whether listened too, or not.

Not sure why we have a split thread at this point, just another way to break up a complete thought path to those wanting to discuss. Mambo was part of the topic, and as others have mentioned, there are no places to discuss "hot" topics. This thread unbroken would have sufficed IMO.

For those viewing, the thread was started here: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,52260.0.html

Tonie wrote:Think that the people posting here are experienced enough to find the topic by themselves . Anyway, created a reply that the rest of the discussion can be found here.

Thanks

While some may see enlightened reality as less than productive

this is open Source...
Not Utopia or ZEN Source!

One thing to make a suggestion...
Another thing to complain because your suggestion wasn't implemented!

Asphyx wrote:One thing to make a suggestion...
Another thing to complain because your suggestion wasn't implemented!

Did you mean ME?  I have never complained if a suggestion I have made is not implimented.  I acknowledge that I am merely one of the many, my voice is one, my vote is one.  But this should not prevent me from making suggestions where I see room for improvement - should it?

my voice is one, my vote is one.

Thats the problem here...you have a voice...but you do not have a vote!
Many people here seem to think Open Source is some sort of concept where you get a vote for registering...

You don't get a vote...you can make suggestions as it relates to what the CODE should do...Not how the project should be run as many here are trying to do...
They claim they are trying to FIX Joomla...Well Joomla isn't broke! My V1.08 runs just fine and dandy!
Nothing being said by these FIXERS is making it run any better!

Info - you are a very wise man but we need to seperate user RIGHTS and user LIMITS....
"The Community" has a right to make suggestions...
"The Community" has a right to improve the code!
debate on how to do things at a programming level is ALWAYS welcome...it is a productive debate...and actually WELCOMED by the developers. But that too is nothing more than a COURTESY the Devs extend to the community. It is NOT a community right! the Devs just happen to find those discussions helpful. In many other Open Source projects there is no community say in what happens! In many cases the community is limited to the devs that are coding for the project! Does anyone thing RedHat holds a community vote on what they do next?

debate on what gets posted on a website is NOT productive and not a right of the community! they want to control and put specific information out then they should start a website and put it out! Then they will be CONTRIBUTING to the project and have the RIGHT to say whatever they want said or posted!

the Devs code the project...after that they are not REQUIRED to answer to anyone but the other people that are developing that project!
Anything EXTRA they share with us is simply a COURTESY!
Hell they aren't even required to make a release!

My point here is as bad as anyone can possibly think things are here it could be MUCH MUCH WORSE!
Badger the devs long enough and it will be a lot more than just some roadmap update that you folks will be craving!
you'll all be scurrying to find a CMS that is still being developed that does as much as Joomla would have done if everyone didn't assult the guys who were about to make it and made them quit!

the Community has the right to make suggestions and comment on the code!
But it has no rights regarding notification, timely web updates or a VOTE in what is and is not done by the Joomla team!
the only vote anyone here has is Run IT or run SOMETHING ELSE!

you don't like how Joomla works then feel free to run something else but don't piss off the devs so that I can't run Joomla because you you folks don't like it and caused them to quit!

Bottomline is if your not making the CODE better and your post doesn't address better features and better function then you are NOT FIXING Joomla!
Just crying like a banshee for the Joomla Devs to fix it!
And they are doing it the best way they know how...if thats not good enough then I suggest you take up the code and do it better!

Sorry Info obviously not all of that (not any really! LOL) was directed at you!
I'm all for productive debate but some people seem to think Open Source gives them some POWER over others when all it does is EMPOWER users to change the code the way they see fit!
Problem is people don't want to REALLY FIX Joomla and make the changes they just want to badger someone else into doing it for them and I don't think that is right!

the only rights "The Community" has under open source is to use the code, change the code and distribute the code...
everything else is a courtesy and if people overstep their bounds what will happen is there will be no one making Joomla!
and the only one who could possibly think that is FIXING Joomla would be the Mambo Foundation!

Asphyx wrote:

my voice is one, my vote is one.

Debate on how to do things at a programming level is ALWAYS welcome...it is a productive debate...and actually WELCOMED by the developers. But that too is nothing more than a COURTESY the Devs extend to the community.

While I admire your enthusiasm, contributions given to the community in one flavor or another would be better discussed rather than dictated between those who hold positions on teams. While many may hold the view that developers rank highest in one form or another, I would rather state that there are various management positions on core teams and not all core members are developers. The issues stem far beyond voting or being allowed to vote in any format or on an individual issue.

Just speaking for myself, and in a broad paint stroke, a developer may or may not have the management skillls to lead a project in a positive, progressive manner. While some format of hierarchy need  be in place to provide for future achievements, it's that form of hierarchy that I'm more interested in rather than that of a vote of direction on individual topics such as programming being heard. It's 
not breaking this down to individual voices, but bringing out information that pull the collective voices together that create a real community.

Asphyx, I admire the way you step in for the CODERS, saves them lots of time so they can continue coding instead of answering.
Maybe we should also close the dev' blog, so they don't need to post there anymore about code changes...
There's just one thing: the Joomla project is not even 50% coders, as was pointed out not so long ago by a core member. What's the rest of them doing, I wonder?
Sidenotes:
* 1.0.8 does not! run fine and dandy, it needs various patches.
* no-one is "assaulting" anyone, it's just the same questions over and over again, if you haven't noticed, because there's never been an "official" answer which actually answers most.. sorry, but you posting the same "answers" about leaving the coders alone to do their stuff is just not enough.
* no-one wants control of anything, many want informations -just check the forums..
* this is not! one of "many cases", this is Joomla.
* what ARE the devs requiered to do, according to you?
* many of the people asking questions also propose fixes, report bugs, suggest enhancements, some code extensions -are you suggesting because they don't "run it", they are to shut up?
* of course people DO have a right to information! As has also been pointed out various times, one of the main strong points of Joomla is the amount of extensions available. If the 3rd party coders have no reliable infos about releases, how are they to plan on anything?
* everyone here DOES like how Joomla works, else we wouldn't be using it. But there are parts of the project (as well as of the code) which CAN be improved. So it will never be a "like it or leave it" option, as much as you'd like that it seems..
* Joomla is NOT only code, it is a PROJECT, there are other parts that can be "fixed" too.. This is it's official website(s), this is thus the place anyone interested in the product comes to for information. There is a PR team (or not?), so they should! take care of Joomlas home. Not the coders, the other team members. Is there no communication between Core members, so that info is readily available for the PR to post?
* "if people overstep their bounds"? no idea where these would be, I don't think I ever did..

I hope I used as many CAPS as you did..

Just speaking for myself, and in a broad paint stroke, a developer may or may not have the management skillls to lead a project in a positive, progressive manner. While some format of hierarchy need  be in place to provide for future achievements, it's that form of hierarchy that I'm more interested in

The ability of the core to manage the project is evident in the releases! That is what the project should be judged on...
Not on how well it is distributed nor how well information is diseminated!

A Well managed project that does very little of what it set out to do is not a WELL RUN project nor is it a GOOD project....yet a Badly managed project (by any criteria you may think that is so) that does everything it set out to do is a success!
If there was no roadmap and no forum would Joomla not still be a great CMS?

the CODE is what matters the rest is just ancillary crap...some of that crap can be helpful...some of it can be hurtful!
I don't care how a project is managed as long as the code coming out works and works well!
And these devs have a wonderful track record on that score!
If you don't like the way the non coding MANAGERS are doing thier job then start your own site and do what they are doing in this BETTER way...

Communities and community spirit isn't always a plus you know!
KKK is a community....
Aryan Nation is a Community...
Just cause you are part of a community doesn't mean that anything you and the rest of the community has to say is ALWAYS helpful!

In the case of this pittling pissing about a roadmap entry and deadline it is not helpful!
And I DARE anyone who thinks they can do better to knock yourselves out and try!
I'll be happy to be part of YOUR community and bitch since you seem to think thats a right of being in "The Community"

1.0.8 does not! run fine and dandy, it needs various patches.

Mine runs fine....must be operator error in your case!

* no-one is "assaulting" anyone, it's just the same questions over and over again, if you haven't noticed, because there's never been an "official" answer which actually answers most.

What makes you think you have a right to an answer? No answer given would be good enough anyway, just another talking point to bitch about!

* no-one wants control of anything, many want informations -just check the forums..

I told you it will be out SOON...that isn't good enoufgh for you though is it? you want a DATE so you can set the Bitch alarm and start again!
As I said before what right do you have to demand information? Why do YOU need to know? What if there is NEVER another release? Is knowing more important than having Devs? Keep on bitching and your answer will be quite clear on when 1.5 is out.....NEVER!

* what ARE the devs requiered to do, according to you?

NOTHING! They don't even need to make a new version if they don't want to! They are VOLUNTEERS! They GIVE you what they WANT TO!

* many of the people asking questions also propose fixes, report bugs, suggest enhancements, some code extensions -are you suggesting because they don't "run it", they are to shut up?

Ok I'll play on this one...What fix are you suggesting for the missed deadline? What fix are you suggesting for an earlier release of J1.5? Release a buggy unfinished code so your calendar matches up with your impatience?

of course people DO have a right to information! As has also been pointed out various times, one of the main strong points of Joomla is the amount of extensions available. If the 3rd party coders have no reliable infos about releases, how are they to plan on anything?

Show me where under the definitions of Open Source I posted that says you have a right to know HOW and WHEN someone is making a code release?
the only thing you are entitled to is the right to the code! that HAS BEEN released! Not what MIGHT be released, planned to be release or soon to be released...you not entitled to that UNTIL it is released!

everyone here DOES like how Joomla works, else we wouldn't be using it. But there are parts of the project (as well as of the code) which CAN be improved. So it will never be a "like it or leave it" option, as much as you'd like that it seems..

Want something done right then do it yourself Joe...It's YOUR opinion that it is not done right...Not my opinion! You all fight so badly for YOUR Right to express YOUR Opinion...why does it bother you so much when I express mine huh? Does your opinion count more than mine in this "COMMUNITY"?

Joomla is NOT only code, it is a PROJECT, there are other parts that can be "fixed" too.. This is it's official website(s), this is thus the place anyone interested in the product comes to for information. There is a PR team (or not?), so they should! take care of Joomlas home. Not the coders, the other team members. Is there no communication between Core members, so that info is readily available for the PR to post?

If there was no website and no forum you mean to tell me Joomla wouldn't be a project? Hmmm Would it be a project if it had a message board and web site but no code? Cause thats where it is headed!
You think you can do a better job than Peter then feel free to start your own site and post everything you think he isn't!
you ASSUME that there is information to be released...but until the devs tell peter to actually release it there is none!
He works at the request of the Devs...not the community!

No one is stopping you from running a site the way you want to...
and no one should tell you how to run your site...
Just as you shouldn't be telling Joomla how to run theirs!
You get what you get...You SHOULD be happy with that! If your not you may soon get nothing and then where will you be?
Back at Mambo!

Just two small additions:

1. The core team has 24 members. From those 24 members, I know of 3! that are doing at least 95% of the coding work. Think about that.

2. I consider myself as a budding developer. I am and I will contribute to the project. My interest to contribute is based on the fact that my voice does count a bit around the core team. When I write them, I know that they will read it and consider it. But I have achieved this position by much work in the community and a lot of discussions I added value to. I had the luck that I jumped in around the time of the split and thus received some attention, which made me go on.

This project lives by the voluntaire work of people and especially the developers, but it could be that they are forced to resign their position due to family, money or work or something else. I know of two projects where developers had car accidents and died. If you haven't attracted new developers that can continue their work, the project will die and you don't attract them by treating them as some unworthy peasants. In this regard I STRONGLY advise you to read the book I talked about in the other thread. (just for your memory "Producing Open Source Software" by Karl Fogel, he has been involved in A LOT of OSS projects and is one of the probably 100 best guys to judge this in the world.)

It may be that the community has not the right to decide every single little thing on the project and that the devs have to obey to every whimp of them, but its also not true that the devs should create a dictatorship. Cause then, I'm leaving and I think a lot of others will, too. Not only the core can make a split! (Rest assured that I have no intention of provoking anything on this one. I'm not that unhappy with the managment. )

EDIT: I checked again and I was wrong with the numbers. 10 out of the 24 core members are developers and from those 6 are working on Joomla 1.5. I apologize for this false information. In the heat of the debate..... 

Asphyx wrote:

* no-one wants control of anything, many want informations -just check the forums..

I told you it will be out SOON...that isn't good enoufgh for you though is it? you want a DATE so you can set the Bitch alarm and start again!
As I said before what right do you have to demand information? Why do YOU need to know? What if there is NEVER another release? Is knowing more important than having Devs? Keep on bitching and your answer will be quite clear on when 1.5 is out.....NEVER!

What would you do if you send your car to the shop and they told you they will fix it and put it on your frontstep tomorrow morning and you get up the next morning, look out of the window and don't see anything? And the next day, and the next and the day after? And then you call them and no one answers your questions?

Its not about getting a precise deadline, but knowing that there is progress and how much is laying ahead of us. A progress bar with a little arrow that works its way along the path would be enough. When I know that the development is somewhere around the middle of all, I know that I have to wait longer than when its allmost there and its this little thing the people want to know. How long is the ToDo list? How many objects are still on it and how much of the whole project do these objects represent? In germany we have a IT magazine that does not give notes or awards for best product when they test something, they just write down their experience and which features the products have and then the reader can form his own oppinion. No deadline, no best product award, just something the people can roll around in their head...

Hack - there is a distinction from having a constructive voice heard on a PRODUCTIVE matter from just plain old bitching about a deadline!
There is constructive critiscism and then just plain old criticism...we can do without the latter!

As you said there are 3 people coding 1.5 out of 24 Devs...
How swamped must those 3 people be?

I've read the book...it talks about the method...some great ideas...
But good communication is really required more between the devs than with anyone else...
And the communication he is talking about has nothing to do with release dates and or feature sets and roadmaps!
discussion about planning and concept is fine and I have said over and over again a welcome commodity...

But this is about a deadline and a webpage...complete and total BEEP!

What would you do if you send your car to the shop and they told you they will fix it and put it on your frontstep tomorrow morning and you get up the next morning, look out of the window and don't see anything? And the next day, and the next and the day after? And then you call them and no one answers your questions?

do what I told you was your other option....go to a different mechanic! If the first guy needs time will yelling at him make it done faster?

Its not about getting a precise deadline, but knowing that there is progress and how much is laying ahead of us. A progress bar with a little arrow that works its way along the path would be enough.

Will it make it come out any faster? If not what good is it?