AJAX-Framework in Joomla?

[Hackwar]

Hi folks,
in the current issue of the german computermagazine c't is an article which describes the AJAX technique and I was wondering if such a framework should not be implemented in Joomla.
For all out there, that have never heard of this term before (like me before I read the article): AJAX is nothing really new, it is a combination of several more or less standards. There is XHTML and CSS for presentation, the Document Object Model for userinteraction, XML and XSLT for the connection between client and server and at last Javascript to connect all these together. This allows you to create interactive Webpages, for example a searchbox wich suggests the string you want to find or Google Maps works partly with it. You can practically create webapplications wich you can work like a normal local software, you don't have to wait for the new page to load, changes are made only to a small portion of the page and the browser does not have to render a full page but merely only a few elements.
The bad part of it is that search engines can't index these pages right, disabled people will get problems and if you don't have Javascript turned on, you just see an error.
Nevertheless, I thought it would be at least interesting to talk about the possibilities and if a framework should be included...

Hackwar

[unclepete]

I'm looking at AJAX. It's a good technology with lots of uses, especially in an environment like Joomla! where every page is generated.

[stingrey]

The short answer is yes.

Eventutally a AJAX framework will be included into the Joomla! Core.
Our Javascript Expert Johan [Jinx] Janssens is in charge of its implmentation

[unclepete]

Good one, Rey. Any chance of an ETA? 1.2? 2.0?

[bluesaze]

The bad part of it is that search engines can't index these pages right, disabled people will get problems and if you don't have Javascript turned on, you just see an error.
Nevertheless, I thought it would be at least interesting to talk about the possibilities and if a framework should be included..

I think Ajax is pretty cool i looked at some examples for it. A lot of major players are taking it seriouly ( Yahoo is about to revamp its mail UI.  http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/000928.html all ), but I wonder what nic will say to that and about the Searchengine thing a lot of people will get upset already there is huge thread about SeF in the wishlist.

[PhilTaylor-Prazgod]

Ajaz is good for "ACTION" based functions (Voting, commenting etc) but should not be used for complete page loads or for anything critical.

I implemented AJAX into mosKnowledgebase (Andrew Eddie knows and has seen this) for many action based functions (Voting, commenting etc) but like others have said it should not be used too much, or for pages that need to be indexed.  mosKnowledgebase does a good job of this as google loves the links, see this: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=allinu ... l&filter=0

Of course, when javascript is disabled (or a disabled/blind person is using a screenreader or non-JS browser) then an alternative measure should be available (In the case of voting, commenting etc this could be a normal form post, and for a link a normal hyperlink instead of a javascript onclick command) - This I must get around to doing for mosKB.

AJAX could dramatically speed up the administrators useability in the backend of mambo where SEO is not a consideration.  AJAX could make the whole experience of managing mambo content a 1000% times less painful. :-)

So, in conclusion, Ajax is a nice tool in the developers toolbox, and should not be used when SEO of ajax loaded content is notimportant, AJAX should NOT be the only way to navigate a site or perform a function (Fallback should be present if JS is disabled) and Ajax COULD make administrating Mambo a much nicer and MUCH faster experience.

[stingrey]

So, in conclusion, Ajax is a nice tool in the developers toolbox, and should not be used when SEO of ajax loaded content is notimportant, AJAX should NOT be the only way to navigate a site or perform a function (Fallback should be present if JS is disabled) and Ajax COULD make administrating Mambo a much nicer and MUCH faster experience.

Yes we agree.

AJAX when implmented is only a tool useful really for the Admin Backend.
And of course we will ensure there is a fallback especially in terms of Accesibility.

[PhilTaylor-Prazgod]

Grrr - My last post has a double not - it should read

"...should not be used when SEO of ajax loaded content is important..."

[Jinx]

AJAX will come to Joomla and this will probably already happen into 1.1. The goal for 1.1 is to create a small unobstrusive javascript framework to handle all javascript backend functionality. In time it should replace most of the external js libs. The actual impact of the AJAX implementation will be very minimal. We don't want to force the use of AJAX upon a 3P developer we just want to make it easily available.

As Phil has pointed out AJAX is a tool that can vastly improve the speed of the administrator but isn't suited for use on the frontend due to accessibility issues. We have no intention to use AJAX on the frontend, however the API's will be available for 3PD to use them if they feel they need it. We will also provide documentation and best practices for 3P developers.

[ford]

Here are some links worth checking in regards to ajax technology:

http://www.ajaxian.com
http://openrico.org/rico/home.page
http://www.fiftyfoureleven.com/resource ... t/examples
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/AJ ... ng_Started
http://prototype.conio.net/
http://mochikit.com/

Cheers from

Ford

[Jinx]

Most of them where on my list already, thanks anyway

[Hackwar]

When AJAX is going to be in Joomla 1.1, where can I see the progress? I'm currently working on an ACL-implementation and I will strongly need AJAX in the admin interface...

[Jinx]

U will be able to follow the progress on the svn, 1.1 is been held in the main trunk. I will also make regulary post on the improvements and implementations. At the moment i'm looking to find a suitable AJAX library to include or to build my own.

[Asphyx]

There is already a module that uses Ajax I have seen...

It is a replacement for the Woh is Online Module that will update at an interval you set to keep the count of visitors online up to date and to automatically add new members logged on since it's first load to the listing...

[cozimek]

Johan,

Thanks for leading up this effort.  I know there are a few places where a little splash of AJAX would help.  Yeah, there's a lot of cool UI uses (disappearing divs, etc), but I think the best implementations of it are when you're dealing with an overload of data.

For instance, a great use-case is adding a static link menu item.  When we have sites with over 200 static pages, scrolling through a list (not even in alpha ASC order now....i've submitted a feature request) it would be nice to splash a little AJAX in there that does an auto-complete or narrowing down of the list of static content to choose from.

So, in my opinion, I think that it's great to use AJAX for backend design, but I think it's even more critical to think of ways it can help in data entry and editing, where we need greatly to use it to help organizations scale their Joomla sites.

Please keep me posted as you continue on your way.  I'd love to pass along any UI issues I see.

Best,
Ryan

[Jinx]

Thanks Ryan for the feedback. U are rigth on the money, don't expect the AJAX framework to juggle with divs, sliding effects etc. It will be used to improve the usability of the admin interface, an auto complete filter box is one of the things my wishlist.

I will try to keep the community informed about my progress and decesion making. Will ask for input and feedback on critical issues

Johan

[Hackwar]

Is there some update on this theme?

[Jinx]

What u think yourself ? 

[happy_noodle_boy]

You might look at these two libraries for a start :

http://openrico.org/rico/home.page

http://script.aculo.us/

I'm hoping to include drag&drop functionality in the JCE Admin for organizing the editor button layout.

Sortable lists for ordering would be a nice inclusion in the backend.

[PhilTaylor-Prazgod]

I use xAjax lib as its quite easy to learn

[bigodines]

Man, this Rico library looks very interesting, I'm gonna try thsi one.

Oh and it uses the awesome Prototype JS framework..

[MystaMax]

Will this JS framework be built off some pre-existing library such as prototype or rico?  I think the backend is the perfect place for this to implemented. Should be interesting.

[Jinx]

Will this JS framework be built off some pre-existing library such as prototype or rico?  I think the backend is the perfect place for this to implemented. Should be interesting.

Currently I am still in research phase. AJAX or better said technologies built around the xmlhttprequest object and dhtml are having a revival. Suddenly everyone thinks they are cool and hip, making it very hard to  decide on what library to go for. If we would go for one we need to be sure it will be in continious development and does what we expect it todo. If not it might be perfectly possible that we create one ourselves as we did in Mambo 4.5.3.

The work is planned for 1.2, more news will come your way onces we have finished 1.1 development and I can focus on research and prototyping for 1.2.

[ybouan]

Openrico is definitely cool.

I have also been watching these guys:
http://qooxdoo.oss.schlund.de/

[bigodines]

The problem I've found with openrico is that it has no community forums or mailing lists.. only two files as the documentation (correct me if i'm wrong please).

[happy_noodle_boy]

scriptaculous looks better, and I'm sure you can do most of what is shown with openrico with it.

[pollen8]

I use xAjax lib as its quite easy to learn

Phil - do you have a working example of suing xajax in joomla? I use xajax on  non joomla stuff (definately a great xajax lib), but struggled to integrate it into a component.
I'm pretty sure it was to do with being unable to add the correct code into the administrations site's head...?

Cheers
Rob

[PhilTaylor-Prazgod]

I do - but I cannot show you as its a live customer site and I am sure they will not appreciate it.

You have to think out of the box in order to do it the "Joomla Way" with the way that Joomla has its components called through index.php all the time but it can be done.

I will be replacing the home grown ajax in mosKnowledgebase in the near future with xAjax as I think its one of the better libs

remember when looking at libs its not all aout having google style drag ad drops or visible tricks - its about functionality.  While it is nice to be able to drang and drop things, slide things etc that is nor really AJAX but pure javascript and not really what I think of when i think aJax. 

AJAX should be about functionality - xAjax gives me a toolkit, which I can add to using the built in extender classes.  Although the class I believe is no longer in development (from what I read) even I feel confident modifing it.

[pollen8]

looks like it has a new team leader -

http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=507068

[PhilTaylor-Prazgod]

looks like it has a new team leader -

http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=507068

yeah it did - and nothing has been released since

Main Site
http://xajax.sourceforge.net/
Forum:
http://www.intuitivefuture.com/xajaxforums