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Not lazy just very busy :-) Been spending 12+ hours a day for the last 4 days on Statutory Accountacy for my business end of period VAT accounts (Basically working ut how much money to pay the UK Government because of my Joomla Component Sales) - its mind numbing stuff and takes ages - having to work out where in the world every sale originates from, whether the UK has a tax relationship with that country and then whether tax was or was not paid on each transaction - and then calculate all those little amounts into how much I owe - then work out how much VAT I paid to my suppliers in the course of my business and deduct that from the VAT I gathered - thats the amount I have to pay the government

As you can see - not lazy just busy - ad brain dead - this forum is te only thing keeping me sane :-) :-) :-)


p.s. and the darn batteries are going in my wireless keyboard so it keeps dropping chars as i type :-(

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Phil Taylor - Full Time Joomla/PHP Expert
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-- http://myjoomla.com/ Joomla Security/Hack fix Auditing Service
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Oh I did read that Jinx, but it sounded too good to be true.   

But Now I know it is true.

You know before I had to hack the index.php file and bunch of other files to make the front end work like the administrator side. The latest changes open a lot of new opportunities to developer all generations of specialized CMS applications in Joomla ( eCatalog, ePortfolio, eLearning, ... ). I think going towards a text book correct software architecture and following design patterns is one of the major straight of Joomla for web application design.

Thank you for the clarification,



Rastin

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Rastin Mehr - Founder/Web Application Architect
http://www.rmdstudio.com - Social People Building Social Web Solutions ™
http://www.Anahitapolis.com - The Anahita Social Engine ™ project

I consider too novice as far AJAX goes but I am writing here as an end user. I understand the core team is currently working on implementing AJAX at the backend. My question is why exactly AJAX cannot be implemented for frontend, or site as it is called now? I recon mentioning of disabilities and fallback thereoff but the same can be true for the front end too? Right?

There is some discussion going on here as to how AJAX can possibly be implemented for end users...

http://www.rockettheme.com/index.php?op ... opic=543.0

Any thoughts?

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--Vish "Still Learning"

http://IndicJoomla.org
http://parvarish.com

Ajax disables:
- screen readers
- Browser back-buttons
- search engines
- all browsers that do not support Javascript and/or have it turned off

In addition, ajax is good for things like updating a list, but not for changing content or similar things. All these things are reasons to not use ajax in the frontend. If you want to, you can create your addon with ajay support, but since ajax is no cure for everything and as pointed out above, can create more problems than it solves, the core-team wont use it in the frontend and even in the backend only where it will really mean a help.

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god doesn't play dice with the universe. not after that drunken night with the devil where he lost classical mechanics in a game of craps.

Since the creation of the Internet, the Earth's rotation has been fueled, primarily, by the collective spinning of English teachers in their graves.

I would use Ajax only for Web Application Interfaces to improve usability. The front end of Joomla CMS by default is mainly published contents and it functions well as it is. Although if one decides to bring administrative functionalities to the front-end users ( let's say and eLearning component used by many users doing quizzes, surveys, generating reports ) then AJAX could be very helpful.

Rastin

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Rastin Mehr - Founder/Web Application Architect
http://www.rmdstudio.com - Social People Building Social Web Solutions ™
http://www.Anahitapolis.com - The Anahita Social Engine ™ project

My 2 cents:
Ajax on the backend is a MUST. Simple tasks as publishing, deleting, and changing order are slow right now. With AJAX they can become instantaneous. For a modest demo of what's possible go to josplayer.dachev.com/administrator. Login is admin and pass joomla. Then checkout the Josplayer component's edit playlist from local files option. Drag&drop, add, delete. The code is in the Josplayer trunk right now. It uses Pototype and behaviour. I hope to have the time to abstract the code into a class soon and make it possible to use it for any kind of admin list.

As far as frameworks go, in the client-side department there are really only 2: prototype (with add-ons) and dojo. I use Prototype but that is not to say that it is the better one. On the server side there is a multitude on frameworks, but what Joomla really needs is a custom one that provides Joomla specific widgets and functions such as sortable list. It wouldn't be so much of a stretch for the core team to implement such a framework.

I think that you are underestimating the need for AJAX on the front end. Sure, it is POINTLESS to use it for showing content items. I am also familiar with all of it's shortcomings, but there is no reason not to use it for things like modules, google maps, and many others. The core team can not possibly account for all the components that are, and will be developed out there (including proprietary) and some of them would require AJAX. For good or bad, AJAX is here to stay, it is the new buzzword, and it may even spark a Bubble 2.0. Long story short I don't think that we should decide how people build their add-ons. If someone wants to build a hip 2.0 component for his customer (no mater how appropriate) he should be able to, because otherwise he will use some other CMS ... and certainly there are many valid situations to use AJAX too.

Blago

Just cause you (or a 3rd party developer) needs AJAX for "modules, google maps" doesnt mean that Joomla Core should have the functionality - as I have proved with mosKnowlegebase, it is very easy to implement additional non-core functions on a per component basis.

Joomla Core has already grown from being less than 0.5Mb to a huge size because of the inclusion of so many other libraries - we really dont need more bloat just "incase" 3rd party developers need "stuff"

Joomla should concentrate on CONTENT (After all it is supposed to a CMS) and concentrate on allowing developers to extend the application easily. 

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Phil Taylor - Full Time Joomla/PHP Expert
Blue Flame IT Ltd.
-- http://myjoomla.com/ Joomla Security/Hack fix Auditing Service
-- http://www.phil-taylor.com/

Phil,
AJAX can do a lot more than inline voting, and some of those things require binding JS to PHP objects, calling PHP functions, using JSON or XML for data transport. Many of these decisions are not trivial to make and implement.

As far as bloating goes, AJAX (in whatever form) will come in the backendend soon (as per this discussion). This can be used on the frontend too. It is not going to increase download size. In the per component scenario, imagine two (or more) modules on the same page making use use of AJAX. Both of them download their own (possibly the same) libraries. Prototype alone is 46KB, add behaviour and scriptaculous, multiply that by two and we end up with a ridiculously heavy page. Moreover, not all libraries can coexist peacefully. If you mix Prototype and jQuery you will end up with unpredictable behaviour due to redefining the $() function.

Blago

Are you making a statement or do you think I dont know these things

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Phil Taylor - Full Time Joomla/PHP Expert
Blue Flame IT Ltd.
-- http://myjoomla.com/ Joomla Security/Hack fix Auditing Service
-- http://www.phil-taylor.com/

Hi everyone,

Because I always like to see what others are doing, just picked this following thread up from the Plone community.  Thought you all might be interested to hear how they're thinking about implementing AJAX in Plone 3.0.

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web. ... evel/10725

Best,
Ryan

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www.picnet.net
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Just wanted to give you an update. I tried implementing XAJAX for my current project which is a Learning Management Unit ( e-Learning ) component in Joomla 1.5.

Well I ended up not using Ajax. I initially borrowed about 5-6 days from the company I work for ( premier.ca ) to do some R&D and I couldn't afford to go beyond that limit; however I will continue working on this problem on my private time. I got pretty close though

The major challenges involved for bringing Ajax to Joomla Administration side, or in fact any other web based information system with Model View Controler Architecture are:

• Authenticating the Ajax messages and checking them using the access control list
• Not having the Proper API to create the UI elements to trigger the right javascript functions
• Developing a reusable design pattern aligned with the Model View Control architecture.

I am open to your suggestions, comments and discussions. I really think we should bring Ajax to Joomla, it would be a huge improvement for screens that look more and more like pilot dashboards.

Rastin

_________________
Rastin Mehr - Founder/Web Application Architect
http://www.rmdstudio.com - Social People Building Social Web Solutions ™
http://www.Anahitapolis.com - The Anahita Social Engine ™ project

I would have suggested just using xajax and index2.php/index3.php with the value no_html=1. You have to reroute the xajax calls to that file and you can return any values you want.

_________________
god doesn't play dice with the universe. not after that drunken night with the devil where he lost classical mechanics in a game of craps.

Since the creation of the Internet, the Earth's rotation has been fueled, primarily, by the collective spinning of English teachers in their graves.

In my components (Which I cannot name else my post will get nuked for advertising) I route all incoming xAJAX requests through index3.php in the admin and index2.php in the frontend.

The easy way to separate HTML and code is the use of buffering as in the post above - or you can simply return the HTML string from the HTML function instead of echoing the HTML to the screen which is really easy if you are using patTemplates as you can just return the $tpl->getParsedTemplate() function to the xAJAX objResponce.

Some very good examples of xAJAX use in components can be found in my component (Which I am not allowed to advertise, however I guess this is a self promotion thing as well - its hard to talk about something that you have direct and relavant experience in without self-promotion or advertising a commercial component!)

Basically using xAJAX for components is VERY easy if you think through exactly what you are trying to acheive.  xAJAX is definatly one of the better systems out there, although I see sneak previews of Joomla 1.5  jAJAX function Oh hum.

EDIT: This post was meant to be in another thread but its relavant here to - the other thread is: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,57231.0.html

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Phil Taylor - Full Time Joomla/PHP Expert
Blue Flame IT Ltd.
-- http://myjoomla.com/ Joomla Security/Hack fix Auditing Service
-- http://www.phil-taylor.com/

Hum...

I would like to know what is the status of the Ajax library in joomla? ( This thread started on September 24, 2005 now is April 28, 2006 thats ~8 months that is a long time "not meant to criticize anyone just mentioning the time elapsed" to evaluate the solutions and try to implement something).

I have read this thread very carefully, and i noticed some things:

There is a clear need to implement not only an ajax library but perhaps a javascript library that includes AJAX, and Graphics library, PhilTaylor has a point wend he says that module developer can use what they want for frontend, but then i really don't see a reason for javascript and ajax library to be implemented in backend only.

If you look at web 2.0 sites they are using js and ajax, not for the backend but for frontend/content/feedback and presentation also take a look at the extension repository, you will see more and more frontend components/modules using web 2.0 techniques like "smart js" and ajax, so i think there is a need to create a library that is shared by all instead of each person rolling their own solution.

AJAX Shoutbox
AJAX RSS Reader with Draggable Divs
PAXXGallery
LiveSupport
Mambotastic SMS Beta 1.1
Phil Taylor's Knowledgebase FAQ Component for Joomla!
Who's Online XT
Shep
D4J Instant Search
Ajax Edit-in-place
SAJAX realtime shoutbox
Jom Comment
Currency Converter
jogadgets

...and more are comming, what libraries are they using, are they compatible with each other, are they safe...?!?

I think there should be an evaluation of what ppl are using ajax and joomla and try to factor the features most ppl need... put that in a library and add it to joomla core.

The mention of size increase is really a no argument to me, if you want new features you have to increase the code, if you want smaller/faster size you have to refactore/optimize the code to make it more efficient. As long as the features are relevant to the majority of the community a size increase is not a real issue.

Note to PhilTaylor:
Phil i think you can mention your products, have you been flammed about this? Linking or advertising them is probably a no no but naming them i don't have a problem with that.

Also i don't see why you will not continue contribute to the core? An easy solution to the conflict of interest would be to have a PhilTaylor joomla fork (like other CMS have Drupal <-> CivicSpace), that way there would not be a conflict of interest.

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For the record: I have no desire to fork Joomla at this time.

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Phil Taylor - Full Time Joomla/PHP Expert
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-- http://myjoomla.com/ Joomla Security/Hack fix Auditing Service
-- http://www.phil-taylor.com/

Daniel - Good post. You've summarised the situation nicely.

For my 2 cents worth, AJAX has limited use in the frontend. There are some types of component where it will be a great asset (eg Galleries), but I would recommend careful use in the general Joomla! frontend codeset. The backend is a different story as a large part of its function involves toggling states, etc and AJAX would be a huge productivity improvement for site admins.

As Phil Taylor pointed out, AJAX is mostly clever javascript outside of the AJAX functionality (framework?), and it's a great idea to gather those scripts into a library and have them generally available.

Ajax has more uses than almost anyone here is even qualified to suggest,
furthermore ajax will not make anything instantaneous especially when the
backend code is generally sluggish, it will seem just as sluggish in ajax just
minus a page refresh cycle... If you want an ajax framework in joomla
mine can be adapted to it but It should not go through the core it loads
up just waay too much for snappy ajax requests... and ajax is not a front
end - back end discussions its a method to improve the user experience.

*inserts two cents*

Well i have taken an interest on the topic did some reseach on the available frameworks, and to me the right decision would be to take what is good from other frameworks and create our own in Joomla, using as a base the prototype javascript framework.

I suggest using prototype mainly because Dojo looks harder to use, 3PD will find working with a prototype based framework easier and faster, another reason for supporting Prototype is the amount of other frameworks that are based on it (script.aculo.us, Rico, Behaviour, moo.fx, etc...) also perhaps we could "borrow" parts of the Dojo framework that are really cool, stuff like "asynchronous file uploads, etc...)

From my evaluation no one framework will fit the bill, so "roll our own" based on prototype is the way to GO, and borrow cool features that come along form Dojo or others is the way to go, for a flexible, top notch javascript/ajax framework.

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-> Documentation is the key to Joomla sucess if you have the time contribute to the Documentation Team
Check out: Joomla Video Tutorials @ http://joejoomla.com/index.php?option=c ... &Itemid=87

I guess I miss a right topic to post in. Pleas look at the folowing link. There is some interesting reading why NOT implement Ajax.

Cheers,
Dorjano

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,23668.msg337255.html#msg337255

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Moderator of Slovenian Forum

Anyone that has downloaded the 1.5 svn nightly, knows that xajax is already being used in the backend, and very well used i might add.

Any technology can be put to bad use, AJAX is no different 

I still think we should have a frontend library of javascript effects and ajax requests, perhaps moo.fx or some other library as said before, this is somehitng that should be researched by google SoC ppl, or by someone that has the time and skills to do this.

_________________
-> Documentation is the key to Joomla sucess if you have the time contribute to the Documentation Team
Check out: Joomla Video Tutorials @ http://joejoomla.com/index.php?option=c ... &Itemid=87

True . I'm trying myself to do something with moo.fx (nice tool BTW). I just wonted to put ajax in booth perspective.
Beside atomic energy is a fantastic invention despite ...you know what

D.

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Moderator of Slovenian Forum

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Phil Taylor - Full Time Joomla/PHP Expert
Blue Flame IT Ltd.
-- http://myjoomla.com/ Joomla Security/Hack fix Auditing Service
-- http://www.phil-taylor.com/

Phil,

thank you for this mambot ! It makes perfect sense... now I can start playing with xajax in J! some more.

I would suggest adding @ in line 175 -> @ob_end_clean();
since with error reporting set to maximum I've got the following:



EDIT:
I forgot to add: mambot/xajax works, but I can't edit mambot in backend - Restricted access pops up...
sorry if it's too off topic

EDIT 2:
found it - it's 1.0.11  admin.mambots.php bug, see http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,89866.msg455550.html#msg455550

I tried the Phil's mambot, it seems good, I created a xajax.COMPONENTNAME.php to define functions and trigger them via onclick, but I have been
getting "xml declaration not at start of external entity" error message, I'm new in ajax but not joomla.

Error seen in FireBug extension of Firefox...

need your suggestion, what's wrong with thsi?

tHanks

Edit: FIXED

xajax.COMPONENTNAME.php file mustNOT include any trailing space character after ?>

Hi,

So I have a question. If we use XAJAX, can we still implement other libraries such as prototype.js?

Thanks.

_________________
Aaron Calderon
Web Designer/Developer

To avoid this problem, you can simply leave out the closing ?>-tag at the end of all files. This is perfectly legal in php.

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In fact,the answer is no, but if you still use prototype JS framework functions, you need to do that...

You can check XajaX Project Wiki to see details and usage...

That is actually incorrect!
You can have xAjax and prototype on the same page - see http://www.phil-taylor.com/My_Transactions/
That has prototype.js - scriptaculous.js - xajax

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Phil Taylor - Full Time Joomla/PHP Expert
Blue Flame IT Ltd.
-- http://myjoomla.com/ Joomla Security/Hack fix Auditing Service
-- http://www.phil-taylor.com/

Thanks for the clarification...

So it is posible to have XAJAX along with another ajax lib. OK.

Thanks.

_________________
Aaron Calderon
Web Designer/Developer

I think there is a misunderstood here, if you want to use xajax and prototype together, it's possible,you can see this in photographia.org