Joomla! Discussion Forums

Issue is fixed and Hack is released:

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,11428.0.html

The hack didn't work with 4.5.1 but with minimal changes it also works there.

I pray the good Lord will forgive me for reviving this thread again...

I am hoping we can get some clear direction on the future of integrated SEF advancement, so I risk the slings and arrow to bring it up again, Andrew.  Now that you've had the chance to talk, meet in the UK, and tour Windsor Castle  what is the direction?  Per the Roadmap (unless it hasn't been updated); nothing new is slipping into 1.1--and SEF isn't even listed at all?

Please advise.

My prayers go also to you, all dev team members. Please provide SEF pain relief as soon as really feasible. Joomla 1.03 has actually degraded the situation, as a small  issue I reported in the bug tracker today actually generate more duplicate URL than mambo 4.5.2.3 did.
I am desperately trying to find (not so) quick and dirty fixes for every problm I runi ito, but making SEF URL (mostly equivalent for me to : no duplicate content penalty) is really, really hard. And  the result is there, after 4 months, my site has still many pages marked as "similar pages" and does not show up in results.. What's the point of having a nice and good site if nobody can find it .

I'm writing in my own words what I think to know from the devs:
SEF is a point on the list, but to work really good it would need some major adjustments to the database and thats something the devs don't like. Therefore its at the moment in the process, but you will have to be patient for quite some time. It will most likely be done together with multi-level categories and such stuff to keep the db-changes to one update. As I said, you will have to be patient for some time...

Thank you for updating the Roadmap 

Roadmap Updated and Important Change (forum post)

Please clarify something . . .
Roadmap Updated and Important Change (main site) says:
- Version 1.1 - SEF functionality moved to a new system bot
Joomla! Roadmap says:
- Joomla! 1.2 - Improved SEF support

Are these the same thing?
If different, what are the plans at each stage?

Anyone know what the full plan is?

Thanks.

I saw a first version of the announcement for the new roadmap stating that SEF will be moved to a system bot in version 1.1, hence kenmcd question above. Now the announcement has been updated and this has disapeared and improved SEF support will be only for 1.2

No confirmation ? will SEF be moved to a system bot in 1.1, or is this the "Improved SEF support" mentioned in 1.2 ?

Thanks for an answer from informed people

The "normal" SEF Function which is currently in includes/sef.php will be at Joomla! 1.1 in a SEFBot.

A bit confusion, having a hard time figuring it out myself Anyway here is the deal. We are currently moving so fast that our teams just can't follow. Basically we planned SEF changes for 1.2., but since we where implementing SSL and we could use the same system to change SEF we did so.

Basically this means that SEF has been moved to a system bot, making it very flexible. If u don't like native SEF u will now be able to create a new SEF bot or u can use Marko advanced SEF soution which he will be releasing as a SEF bot soon.

In 1.2, we will improve SEF handling, this will go hand in hand with improvements in the content structuring

I will inform the PI team to update the roadmap accordingly, thanks for bringing it up !

Guys, don't blast me for this post, but can someone briefly explain the difference between SEO links (that are currently supported in Joomla) and the SEF functionality discussed in this thread.

Apologies for my ignorance.

SEF = search friendly url's
SEO = search engine optimisation

SEF is part of SEO.

No blasting today ibnkuldun, out of dynamite

There are two steps.  One is moving SEF to a mambot format so that they are a pluggable feature.  That will be available in version 1.1 (due next month).

The other issue is more core support for SEF bots which will be done progressively over 1.1 and 1.2. The difficulty is that we need to re-engineer some things to make usable by any component.  We have a few ideas on how to do this though.

And Jinx rightly points out the difference between SEF and SEO

Would there ever be a way to "publish" the pages out of Joomla as "static" HTML with say Javascript calls to pull in the "dynamic" content (latest this, random that).  Or does this go against the grain too much?

Does the system always have to call from the DB? Is it conceviable to "publish" occassionaly and update the site? Not a cache, but actually crank out pages. Many smaller sites can benefit from the purely content management features of Joomla, but they do not need to have the full on power of DB-backed site.

Are there any numbers on the SEF Advanced module as to the performance hits? There was a lot to read in this thread, and I wanted to make sure I didn't miss it. Is it based on traffic? How much does it take to start showing performance hits?

Just curious.

pesto

Pesto, I think your confusing this with AJAX type behaviour.  SEF is about the URL being human readable (very simplistically).

actually, I am looking more at programs like LinksSQL from Gossamer-Threads for my inspiration.

They have a MySQL-backed links directory system that can actually be published three ways:

1) As static HTML
2) As CGI
3) As PHP

What LinksSQL can do is actually *build* HTML pages, not just publish.

The issue of performance is what is driving the question, per Saka and his Advanced SEF module. Doing the rewrites, checking the URLs and everything over and over in real time is, by his own description, a big hit on a server. If that is problem, I am just asking if there is another way around it.

I have used several CMS systems before I happened across *bo/joomla. The last one was called Big Medium, which used SHTML to create quasi-static pages. It uses SSIs to call in some dynamic elements (latest news, weather, etc) but did not put a big hit the server, because it was all flat files. It also wrote the URLs in an SEF fashion. Serving HTML will always be, AFAIK, faster/less server intensive than serving dynamic PHP pages.

AJAX will be great down the road, but that's not where I am going with this idea. I am talking about small sites, like a local restaurant that wants to update their specials monthly, or show pictures from recent catering events. Or a local contractor who wants to have something better than the "shovelware" that their neighbor's kid built back in '98  

Smaller sites can still get a huge benefit out using a great system like Joomla, but if the system could actually churn out HTML pages, that have the SEF URLs coded because the system creates the pages in the folders as you would expect, not "faking" it as it does with the masking or rewrites that it takes to do it dynamically. Then anything that is fresh or updated, like news, random pictures, random ads, whatever, could be pulled in via JS, for instance. The bulk of the page, however is already rendered/built, since it's not going to change.

I actually classify Joomla as a CCMS (Community and Content Management System) as opposed to a pure CMS (though I guess it depends on your definition of "content").

Not every site needs to have community management, but most can benefit from easy content management.

On the SEO side, one other question. Is there a way to pull the Meta keywords into the page TITLE (in the HEAD, not the displayed article/section/component proper title)? Besides the article title, it would be great, from an SEO standpoint, to be able to get a few more keywords, especially on the home and section/category pages. Don't necessarily want to use only the article/section title. Nor do I want to put all the appropriate keyphrases into the displayed title on the page itself. In the global config, I have display "title meta" set to yes, but I do not see the "title" in the meta tab. I would expect to be able to control it there.

Because you are right, SEF is about the URL structure, SEO is more. The TITLE, as of today's engines, is hugely important. I would like a better way to manage that, at least. That is more "SEO Integration" that I would like to see.

Just thought I would throw this all out there.

Thanks for replying.

pesto

can anyone tell me the url from where i can download free sef component.

I want all my pages to have .html extension

Which is the best sef component?

When will seo be integrated in Joomla core product?

sef 404 --> http://mamboforge.net/projects/sef404/

Hey all, Been reading this post FOR EVER today!  Wow tons of info...

Ok, so NO SEF Component or Fix is really out here to help fix a problem that isn't SEF Related.  It is DB related.  Understandable.  So Joomla will increase and be better later...

We all have to live in the hear and now though - SO until then - what is our best fix? 

Keep in mind that when the new Joomla versions come out with a great SEF or the advanced SEF fix from Saka then this will STILL change your URL's and you will fall from your ranking.

If we stay with the current plain SEF URL's that Joomla puts out now, nice but not keyword rich.  If we go to a component input, then problems.  SEF404 caused serious problems for me personally - only when skip was hit on certain other components, it changed alot of my static links and some menu links to something totally different - and it didn't have anything to do with the component I skipped - it hurt our new ranking.  SO I killed this component and will not go back to it - As it works maybe - maybe not, but still issue is DB...

Now - Question..

#1 - What component or fix is best for time being?  Advanced SEF???  or what???

#2 - When and if Joomla finally gets to the fix of the SEF betterment - Then will this still change the URL's you  currently have set up in your site then...  If so then you will fall from ranks - and that isn't good.

#3 - Is there a Component that is most stable out here that we can use now - that will work with the new SEF that will be coming out in the next few years?  If so what is it?

#4 - To whom ever would be Creating this - Saka - A Dream Feature would be (and would be the most powerful feature you could add) would be a easy change over - such as - change a few links at a time - so to speak - so you can slowly change your site over to new SEF links and not lose much rank at all.

Trying to find the best fix now - most stable - yet would work with the new releases of things with out having to change my urls over and over and over again - Which does no one any good.

Please anyone help me with this one - as we are currently looking.  So Far I see RemoSEF - which looks good, Advanced SEF - Which I think would work as well, and Open SEF... Which is best out of them - not including SEF404 - just not interested in it.

Thanks, Allen

P.S.  I am sure SEF404 is a good product but it has hurt me a few times already - Of course not SEF404 but it doesn't seem to work well with Joomla, and I know everyone will say nothing does, I understand, but we lost some ranking over this issue and not going backward... Thanks

Actually, as someone who provides SEO services, I would disagree completely and say that's a myth, up there with using keyword metatags.....

Not to clear my above post by any means as I need to have some answers to these questions - so that I can move forward safely - but...

As a SEO'er - Just how critical is it that you have keywords in the url's - compared to just using Joomla's core SEF

mmmh, my page is #1 when I type a kind of general search phrase into google and I don't have SEF turned on.

The importance of keywords is debated by many who work professionally in web design and SEO services. Some (like compass) say they don't matter at all, others (like me) say that they are not as important as other SEO enhancements, but still have a place nevertheless. Search engine algorithms are constantly changing and the problem with any optimisation is that practioners do not get to know of these changes before they happen.  Not so long ago, some so-called SEO professionals were telling people that the meta description was outdated and not used by search engines. This was true for awhile with some search engines, but not all, and changed as soon as Google began indexing meta descriptions again.
There are some search engines that seem to put no weight at all on meta keywords, while others use them as part of the algorithm.

Now, to your other questions - use whatever SEF suits you best at the moment. There is no way to predict the future or to know how the SEF in future versions will render urls.  There are, however, many ways you can work with url changes so rankings don't drop.
By the time Joomla SEF reaches maturity, search engines will have different algorithms, so what gets you good page rankings today may not be applicable in the future.  Just do the best optimisation you can now and leave the future to sort itself out.

Perhaps I should better state my viewpoint about SEF  .

At a fundamental level I agree with Elpie

Since releasing its patent, SEO'ers have been able to confirm many more of their suspicions about what factors are involved:
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=20050071741&OS=20050071741&RS=20050071741
http://www.seomoz.org/articles/google-historical-data-patent.php
http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/internet/google-ranking-factors.htm

The list has been "narrowed" down to about 118 factors, of which one is idtentified as:



So having "topic extraction" (keywords) in the URL is one way Search engine 125 (Google) tries to extract the topic. Then topic extraction is one of many many factors used to give the site its SERP score.

My frustration is that I see time and time again people are equating SEF with SEO. The time that site owners spend trying to get (the currently unreliable imho) add-ons to work could me spent knocking off the other 117 factors.

For example, its highly likely that the duration you have registered your domain carries more weight than keywords in URL. Hands up everyone that only has theirs registered year to year?

On a semi related note, in some ways SEF might actually hurt your SERP. Off-site factors (link building) is much more important than on site. To do well with these you need reliable page URL's that will stay with the exact name they are. Built in SEF acheives this well, but who knows with 3rd party add ons. The next upgrade of that add on or Joomla itself might change the link by just one chracter, and then the 200 links you have built to that page go poof.
[note, the realization that you don't do SEO for you home page comes in here]

Morale here? Do some research, address which ones of the 188 factors you can and then worry about SEF.

THANK YOU ALL - Very good advice in which I will take.  I appreciate everyones input on this.  I am still confused about which SEF is most stable and works best for you - excluding SEF404 - just personal issues I had with it - although I am sure it is a great program.

I have a SEO'er and he is currently working with me - and He has told me this does matter - keywords in there, but he could beat this problem with more links in - as you have said in round about words - which is nice to confirm this as true.

As far as your page ranking #1 - that is great - mine isn't and will be awhile before it is - as my field is VERY competitive - Mortgages, Home Loans... So it insn't going to be a fast ride for us here - but a good one.

Thanks agian for all input - it is really appreciated your time into them.

Allen

I am looking at OpenSEF, RemoSEF, AdvancedSEF - although I probably will not spend the amount of money for a simple SEF program so - advanced SEF maybe out - not sure yet.

Out of these listed, I am sure most on here will not give their opinion on which is more stable or better used with Joomla, but if someone would that would be very helpful.  I think it will come down to AdvancedSEF & OpenSEF... So please any idea's on the better one but yet very stable. - thanks, Allen

Bottomline is: It will come, but its more complicated than that simple hack, cause to work properly and everywhere, you have to do more. (database restructuring, etc.)

Thanks for the reply. Thats what i need to know.

And i'm pretty sure it's a simple hack, because the only thing needed to be done there is URL parsing. Just like the standard sef core. So instead of numbers, get the actual content title or what not to replace the URL. There would be no database restructring needed.

compass,

Hey, again great advice - still reading up on those links - thank you... You said there is a way to change your links slowly over I think it was without hurting your ranking, please can you share more info on this for me - as This would make me trust more of the SEF programs better...

Thanks, Allen