Unfair Censorship. Joomla potentially not acting in the best interests of users...

[Webdongle]

...
This is a general community (unofficial) forum. So, everyone speaks freely giving opinions.

At my age, I don't have the patience (or time) to answer line by line of each previous reply.

I can summon Angelina (Jolie) to speak about Tomb Raider III... But sadly she's not going to reply. ...

Nobody is summoning you to reply. You chose to post and if (in the posts you choose to post) you choose to post unofficially that is your right. But the OP has made an allegation ... and if you don't make an official post rebutting it then who will ?

[tony2015]

Hello all.

Again, really good discussion all delivered in the correct spirit. Thank-you.

I would like to take this time however to correct / confirm / comment to messages since my previous message.

@coaleb, confirming the paragraph i provided verbatim was NOT the review i posted in JED. The message seeking support was through the developer's support ticket system. This was the last message posted in his ticket system seeking closure. This thus is not justification as you mention to have the review removed and thank-you for correcting your initial incorrect assertion.

@coaleb, regarding your query

I absolutely agree. This would give the developer in question an unfair advantage over other developers who are "playing fair" in the JED, not to mentioned enabling them to rip off people for support he/she never intends to provide. But are you absolutely certain that this developer works with the JED?

Yes, i verified this point and i made it clear that @webdongle was correct in his post to this point, i.e. Team Leader. Though Brian, i sent you a PM and stated the extension name. Perhaps you did not have time to check the extension yourself. @sozzled, in response to your last post, we do know it!

All i can appreciate your reasoning that there are always three sides to a story, though i have all the back-up correspondence to verify my version of events.

@sozzled, your second last post was excellent. Well written. No my post was not a whinge. I did not know however, until being contacted by other Joomla users and reading the responses to this thread, how prevalent the deletion of reviews was. Somewhat concerning to me to be honest. As i stated;

I thought the Joomla community was there to promote those developers that did good and highlight those developers that need to reassess what they are offering, as we are the consumers.

I still believe this however, having a review i posted in the best interests of my fellow Joomla users removed by a developer's conflict of interest does concern me and shows that that there is no hierarchical or check mechanism to control the same. Perhaps too much effort....

@webdongle, you discussion » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:18 am and responses since are great. You highlight many worthy points for discussion and resolution and outline the real crux of the original issue which has opened further questions as to the credibility of the JED review process.

@mbabker, What JED support ticket system are you referring to? If you are referring to the developer's ticket system, i DID!!! The other support system is to Report the extension which i did (twice) in good faith though still did not receive a response. I am unsure what triggers a response....

Thank-you again.

[sozzled]

I'm sorry, @webdongle, but I disagree with you on one specific point. There has been no evidence presented, no proven fact, of any misconduct (abuse of privileges) perpetrated by a member of the JED team. I'm not writing in defence of the JED team; I only want to ensure that everyone is treated fairly. Until such time as certain allegations of misconduct have been proven, we need to be critical about the facts we're examining and those matters that may only be speculation.

I later was informed through another Joomla user the developer in question is a member of the Joomla Developers team ...

This is the only "evidence", the only fact, that has surfaced and it remains an alleged fact until such time it hs been corroborated. I don't know (and frankly I don't care) if the story is true or not. I can, however, relate to having had my own reviews of other developers' products deleted without any explanation.

My concern here is the issue of alleged unfair treatment by a member (or members) of JED team and how that mistreatment brings the whole JED service into disrepute. If, however, there's proof of professional misconduct by someone, that's an different matter entirely.

[deleted user]

What JED support ticket system are you referring to? If you are referring to the developer's ticket system, i DID!!! The other support system is to Report the extension which i did (twice) in good faith though still did not receive a response. I am unsure what triggers a response....

When logged into the JED there should be a support menu item or something that allows registered users to submit tickets. At least I thought there was such a thing; admittedly it's been a while since I've logged into the site because my extensions don't get reviews (so no need to review them), I haven't pushed out updates on them in a hot minute (they just work), and frankly I've got enough conflict with some members of the JED Team that the less I have to do with them the better.

Anibal is manager of JED is he not ? As manager should he not be expected to make an official post (on such an important matter) instead of giving an opinion of something he has no knowledge of ? Or perhaps he could authorise the person (who deleted the review) to make an official post. Until such an official post is made it will look to (some viewing this thread) that and the members of JED don't know how explain the discrepancy because the OP's conclusion is correct.

If the assumption is that anyone wearing a badge always speaks in an official position, then Anibal, myself, and quite a few others should basically stop using these forums as Joomla users and reserve our posts for only those made while acting in a position of responsibility. He came in here, made a comment based on what he read and even made it clear it wasn't his area of expertise. If that's not adequate than I honestly don't see anything he (or any JED member) could say that would appease anyone.

I still don't believe anyone in the JED needs to make a public "official" statement on the matter. But I see that there are those who will not be appeased until somebody does. *shrug*

[Webdongle]

I'm sorry, @webdongle, but I disagree with you on one specific point. There has been no evidence brought forward, no proven fact, of any misconduct (abuse of privileges) perpetrated by a member of the JED team. ....

I never said there was ... I said the author ( of the extension in question ) is a JED Team Leader. And that there are reviews of other extensions that say the paid support is no good. Those are facts and you have drawn your own conclusions from them.

....
If the assumption is that anyone wearing a badge always speaks in an official position, then Anibal, myself, and quite a few others should basically stop using these forums as Joomla users and reserve our posts for only those made while acting in a position of responsibility. He came in here, made a comment based on what he read and even made it clear it wasn't his area of expertise. If that's not adequate than I honestly don't see anything he (or any JED member) could say that would appease anyone...

I never said I expected him to post 'wearing a badge' ... I said it was his choice whether he posted an opinion or officially. His opinion that it was a 'commercial dispute' doesn't satisfy the fact that (reviews of other extensions that say the paid support is no good) are not classed as a 'commercial dispute'.

....
I still don't believe anyone in the JED needs to make a public "official" statement on the matter. But I see that there are those who will not be appeased until somebody does. *shrug*

They don't need to ... they can choose whether to or not.

[sozzled]

I'm sorry, @webdongle, but I disagree with you on one specific point. There has been no evidence brought forward, no proven fact, of any misconduct (abuse of privileges) perpetrated by a member of the JED team. ....

I never said there was ... I said the author ( of the extension in question ) is a JED Team Leader. And that there are reviews of other extensions that say the paid support is no good. Those are facts and you have drawn your own conclusions from them.

I disagree. I have not drawn those conclusions because I don't know what you're referring to or about whom—the author of an unspecified extension, as a JED team member/leader, who may have abused their position—you've asserted is responsible. That's the point that I'm making. You may be right. In the meantime, I remain unconvinced that this is the reason for discussing this topic.

Does it matter? It matters only if that unspecified person exercised their privileges in a way that could be construed as professional misconduct. In the meantime I agree with the proposition that some reviews are arbitrarily removed and, in that sense, those actions may, overall, be "potentially not acting in the best interests of users".

[Webdongle]

...
Does it matter? It matters only if that unspecified person exercised their privileges in a way that could be construed as professional misconduct. ...

Yes it matters but not only if a position has been abused. It matters because that is the accusation made by the OP in his first post. It matters if the OP's allegation is correct and it matters if it is incorrect.

[sozzled]

I agree with you, @webdongle, but I believe that you may have overlooked the points that I have tried to make.

If there is an accusation of misconduct then that matters: it matters because the alleged misconduct has not been thorougly investigated and action taken to prevent it happening again. As far as I'm concerned, that's an internal issue for the JED management and, for that purpose, there is the JED ticket system. Admittedly, the JED ticket system is a slow, arcane process but that's what it's there for.

Let me state again that there has been no evidence of misconduct. The facts, such as they are, have merely been represented in the original post which I again quote:

I ... was informed through another Joomla user the developer in question is a member of the Joomla Developers team ...

That's all we have to go on: it's hearsay; it's not corroborated evidence. It casts suspicion—it's all a bit mystifying to me who informed whom about what and what the informant knew—but it's not necessarily appropriate for public discussion. That specific issue of "a member of the ... team" ought to be handled internally.

I repeat that my interest in this subject stems from a fellow community member's concerns that they've been mistreated; that the editorial process operating at the JED is "potentially no acting in the best interests of users". In that regard @tony2015 has my complete and undivided attention. As far as I'm concerned, I believe that @tony2015 was mistreated. That the mistreatment was done by someone who abused their position should sanctioned but, just to base an accusation of malfeasance on hearsay stretches the limits of my tolerance.

@tony2015 has made his point and he has my sincere sympathy but I simply do not know who caused him to be aggrieved, whether that action was sanctionable or whether his information is trustworthy. He "was informed". How, by whom and was the information reliable, we just don't know.

The JED team is entitled to editorialise/censor the reviews in whatever manner they see fit. It's a "benign dictatorship" (and I don't really have a problem with that). You win some, you lose some. It would be nice if it was a level playing-field but it's not. As @mbabker has put it, there are processes in place to deal with anomalous cases but let's not get ahead of ourselves. We've asked some questions and time will show how those questions are addressed.

And, by the way

... frankly I've got enough conflict with some members of the JED Team that the less I have to do with them the better.

Amen to that!

[tony2015]

@sozzled, I have stated on more than one occasion since my initial post that for one of the issues I raised, the comment pertaining to the developer being a JED team leader, is correct and thus is not hearsay. It has been corroborated. I checked. FYI.

Granted this is one of many issues this thread has raised, though still probably one of the most significant. :-

[Webdongle]

...

I ... was informed through another Joomla user the developer in question is a member of the Joomla Developers team ...

That's all we have to go on: it's hearsay; it's not corroborated evidence. ....

The OP PM'd me the link to the extension ... I can confirm that the company said to be the developers of that extension has two JED members in it's about page. One of those is listed As a Team leader in https://volunteers.joomla.org/teams/ext ... am#members . That is NOT 'hearsay' that is FACT ... unless you are saying the OP lied to me about the extensions name or you are calling me a liar.

... It casts suspicion—it's all a bit mystifying to me who informed whom about what and what the informant knew—but it's not necessarily appropriate for public discussion. That specific issue of "a member of the ... team" ought to be handled internally....

Yes the OP's first post does cast suspicion that is why I suggest that someone from JED rebut it.

tony2015 claimed he "was informed through another Joomla user the developer in question is a member of the Joomla Developers team". Brian said

There is no such thing as the "joomla developers team"

If I look through the list of top contributors I dont see anyone that it could be

I emailed tony2015 (as per his open invitation for a PM) and he PM'd me back with a link to the extension. To avoid the thread being tied down with pedantics of the extension author's position ... I posted a more accurate definition. Hope that has cleared your confusion.

Now (the semantics have been dealt with) back on topic
tony2015 (because he was unsatisfied the matter had been dealt with internally) started this thread. His first post makes an accusation and that accusation is still 'hanging'. And the question still remains why ... there are many commercial extensions that have bad reviews for support that have comments like "I paid for support and have had no reply to my support questions" . But when it is said about an extension created by a JED Team Leader ... the review gets called a commercial dispute.

N.B. this is NOT a name and shame post.

[waarnemer]

My two cents:

From the terms and conditions, http://extensions.joomla.org/about-jed/ ... ce#reviews

5. Acceptance and/or removal of reviews and votes is at the sole discretion of the JED team and OSM.

This removal by "sole discretion" should have been accompanied with communication about the reason for the deletion (and penalty). Not in public, but simply sent to poster.
Preventing us from discussions like this. Avoiding misunderstandings, framing, flaming and "conspiracy theories".

[Webdongle]

...

5. Acceptance and/or removal of reviews and votes is at the sole discretion of the JED team and OSM.

This removal by "sole discretion" should have been accompanied with communication about the reason for the deletion (and penalty). Not in public, but simply sent to poster.
Preventing us from discussions like this. Avoiding misunderstandings, framing, flaming and "conspiracy theories".

It is NOT the 'sole discretion' that has been brought into question here ... it is the way that 'sole discretion' is being applied that is in question.

[waarnemer]

@Webdongle.. my point exactly.
How it is applied would have been clear when on removal of a review or vote a reason why is given to poster.

Where article #6 is clear on what is not allowed, article #7 and #8 of the terms are not clear.
No motivation plus articles #7 and #8 leave room for these quarrels.

#7. why can someone only file an appeal after three penalties? And to what? How would someone do that? Say sorry for what you don't know you have done and never ever do something you are not aware of ever again? And at least three of them?

#8. ah, yes, the article on how we can file these appeals........... not there yet.

It is not only that poster made a review that was deleted for whatever reason, but also poster is punished for it (banned to ). And he doesn't really have a clue why. Guessing, hear-say, assumptions of what went wrong, nobody really knows. But all lead to an implanted thought in the head of poster that developer of the extension has got something to do with it.

I don't question anyone in this story on being wrong or right.
However A simple mechanism of justification when removing a comment or review would simply have prevented this thread to ever have been posted in the forum.