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After years on JED I noticed that many developers are very unsatisfied with the current JED situation.
Interpreting the name Joomla - "all together" or "as a whole" the logical evolution for JED would be a democratic election of the JED team and the leadership.

Every extension developer can run for office.
Ministry of one year.
A developer can be elected only twice in a row.
A developer may not maintain the categories where (s)he has an own extension.

Saying that the JED team doesn't understand the needs of devs would be no more possible because the whole dev community would have elected the team

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While I am100% in favour of democracy you are confusing a decision making body where people's views are represented and a working body where people carry out tasks and duties on a daily basis as volunteers.

In addition if there was to be a decision making body then it should be open to all the consumers of the JED so that includes sitebuilders not just extension developers.

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Hi Brian,
while developers are extending Joomla in the meaning of functionallity, site builders are users and template designer are just only providing a view.
We are talking about JED where the name Joomla EXTENSIONS Directory is clearly stating out what this is about.
Extension developers know at best what is good for JED.

It is true that you need dutiful people for JED.
Probably it would be a better idea that only devs with more than 2 years activity at JED may run for office but all extension developers may elect.

You can not include sitebuilders and template designer to the election at the Joomla Extensions Directory.
This would be the same as if you would like to include Canadians for an election in the USA because they are located on the same continent.

_________________
Google says: Don't be evil!
Just imagine: Darth Vader used to be once Anakin Skywalker!
http://www.mooj.org

Sorry but you are wrong and your analogy is incorrect. Canadians would not be included in a USA election because they are not consumers of the decisions of the USA government. Site builders are clearly consumers of the JED.

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"Exploited yesterday... Hacked tomorrow"
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Brian, yes you are right my analogy used to be wrong.
But of your point of view, all consumers of US products and all citiziens of countries who are in any realtionship to the united states should be able to elect in US elections. Sounds not correct either.

My point of view that developers should elect is necessary because most of the consumers like to have "all for free" community.
Just read some reviews of commercial listings.
This would cause a big disadvantage for people who are part of the Joomla success.
A non developer doesn't know the needs of the devs it only knows the other side.

More than electing the JED team - there is a need of a developers lobby or a kind of developers union.
There is no institution which stays for the interests of the devs and has the power to change things.

You must agree that Joomla would not have become that big if there were no extension developers.
But at the moment it seems as if these do not count.

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Just imagine: Darth Vader used to be once Anakin Skywalker!
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engage the developer community...? and what about the jeds other customers - the non coding users?
and those who have loaded just one extension, do they get the same rights as someone who loads 50 slideshow extensions

What about those who will use the democratic process to be undemocratic? As a democratic process, you will obviously ned to ask ALL the stakeholders of the JED. Thats all the registered users, and people who dont register but go there to get links to sites.


so if someone is looking to sway the system in their favour, then that is an abuse of the system. the would possibly be shouted down by the other thousands of users.

Would a dev get one voting right per user (mass clone account influx) or one vote per extension (mass upload of slideshow extensions) and what about the non participant users who only come in and comment? Then brigades would join in and register just to get votes

I suppose like most things, if you actually put forward a WP/RFP/ with actually facts on how it would work then please do so. Perhaps ask all the other users of the jed if this is the way they want it too.

Also why are non developers any different (or less important) than developers in your eyes?

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@mandville

The decision to pick jed members out of developers is also the best way for non developers.
The developers have no interests to chill or cast out users.
Quite the contrary! It is the very first thing that developers want to have: satisfied users.
One part because of commercial interests the others just to have good reputation.
Not a single developer is interested that JED reaches less users or loses its significance.
This is because otherwise the developers would harm themselfs.

I can not follow the statement: "What about those who will use the democratic process to be undemocratic?" .
Do you mean some people deserve dictatorship because they are not able to be democratic???
Hope not.

The whole Joomla thing is built on the words: "all together" .
This means Joomla claims to be a "democratic" structure which builds a system, but that is not true at the moment.
I am 4 years on JED and still don't understand how JED members are recruted.

When I am talking about that JED members should be elected out of developers, it is an approach not to destroy JED but improve.
Devs know the best when a review is fake.
They know the best if a review is made by competitors.
They are able to code things to reveal fraud etc.

You didn't read what I've wrote in one of the posts above.
Probably it would be a better idea to use dev candidates who are more than 2 years actively on JED because of the expirence.
Not everyone is hot to be a JED memeber because it is voluntary work.
At the end fraudulent candidates will not be elected. If someone wants to be elected (s)he must have a good reputation.
No developer will trust a nobody, but users will do. Think about this.
Again, no developer likes to destroy or harm JED because it is naturaly not in his / her interest.

As I already mentioned they are typical democratic mechanisms to prevent fraud like:
- Ministry of one year.
- A developer can be elected only twice in a row.
- A developer may not maintain the categories where (s)he has an own extension.

I am convinced that fraudulent actions and members would be caught faster and more efficient if developers are also moderators and maintane JED.

_________________
Google says: Don't be evil!
Just imagine: Darth Vader used to be once Anakin Skywalker!
http://www.mooj.org

I only got involved in this conversation as a user of the jed as i would not like to see what i can view in the jed by the chosen few or may be part of a closed shop.
Please be clear what you mean by dictatorship. are you confusing dictatorship with not being allowed to mess around/play the system/get caught with your trousers down?

as for your accusation that i did not read the topic. i will have to take your word for the fact that i didn't and only asked clarifications out of the air.
so once more with feeling.
how would the initial batch of your team be decided?

seems a correct assumption of your description.

in your argument --
Joomla TEMPLATE Directory is not just made up of template developers but users too.

so i build an extension for j1.0, then 1.5 and then 2.5 but thats only ONE slide show/weather module/JS wrapper extension, so i have just as much right as someone who has released 1.5 extensions in the last 2 years?

And who would vote that? who would they answer too? surely a 3pd union would be the voice to the existing jed team anyway and actually duplicate the efforts of a dev led jed team
There is - and if you dont know about it or are not part of it then perhaps you are moving in the wrong circles.

In you scheme everything i asked you would be ignored as i am a mere user and can only see the extensions the developers want me to see.

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I happen to agree with @mandville on this part. Just because the directory is for extensions doesn't mean that ONLY developers are qualified to run it. Someone with development experience would be great to have for checking for coding issues in the extension. That doesn't mean that users or sitebuilders cannot also help run this just as effectively. I would put my talents up against anyone else in determining if a review was fake or fraudulent. I would say that, with enough practice and review, anyone could be taught that. If there was a question, having someone else to ask would be beneficial as well.

The other problem with 2 year on the JED is that by the time you get up to speed on how it works, you are now having to leave and cant' come back for a year. You are now getting rid of volunteers that are willing to help out with all the work done on the JED. It is hard enough time getting people on the JED in the first place. Why would you want to force them to leave when they are willing to help as long as they are doing a good job!!

If there is an issue of fraud or issues with someone's work, there needs to be a mechanism in place to remove them. It needs to be completely transparent and workable and something that has to be heavily documented as to how it happens. This mechanism just needs to be there period.

I'm all for having an oversite committee of the JED that is elected that reviews decisions like final approval of an extension, extension removals, disputes over removal, etc. Most of this has been controlled by one person right now and that has caused a major bottleneck. Lack of response by most anyone on the JED to legitimate requests for clarification and comments and doing this before removal has been lacking as well. So, this oversite committee could be something that would allow for a more democratic way of managing the JED.

Again, I would be heavily against JUST developers being able to be on the JED. We would be dropping such a vast pool of easily qualified people, like @mandville, by doing that.

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My idea is that the JED became a very important resource for both developers and end users, and although small problems may look very simple for the JED team volunteers, they may cause major damage/consequences for the developers or the end users/designers or site builders, I hope that we have a more professional way in dealing with the JED today, this should speed the problems resolving times, provide better solutions to problems, alternative ideas to any outstanding issues, the ability to discuss common problems with more than 1 editor...etc, we are looking for the same quality of service we had since 5 years ago.

I appreciate the work done by the current JED team, but it looks like they are overloaded with issues and they can't answer most of the questions in a descent time, this is expected because of the huge number of extensions in the JED today, but when the issues are regarding business, it may take more than 3 rounds of questions/answers to get a suitable solution for both parties, but then we fall under the unfair slow-response policy, and we can't complain because they are volunteers.

Why just we don't find a dedicated team for the JED someway or another, I don't care how, we are only looking for a better experience for every community member dealing with this important resource today.

Many thanks to the JED team for their big efforts in managing this resource as volunteers.

Max

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@mandville

Ok, you like to know what dectatorship is:
Let us consider the GPL as "constitutional law".
JED always claimed to save the rights of the GPL and made some "home brew laws".
Media files such as JavaScript, CSS, images or SWF are compiled together in the browser and don't need to be GPL.
They could be under a license which does allow usage e.g. for only one domain.
But JED says: ok, we know that this is not against GPL but we don't care.
If you restrict these files to one domain you will not be listed.
The reason why JED is able to do this is because it has a quasi monopoly.
Did anybody of JED asked a developer to establish this "law" even if it is not breaking the "constitutional law" ??
Are the people who made this "law" the owner of Joomla?
No! Just a few people DICTATED this law.

Democracy is also about letting things happen which you don't like.
In such cases JED is calling this "loopholes". If you like to prevent "loopholes" you need to call FSF and let close them but not force the developer community with "rules" made by a few people.

Another example which almost all developers have expirenced:
A normal question via the ticket system.
The summary of the reply in colloquial language: "Don't bother us or you will be baned!"
An indicator of dictatorship just as it used to be in the sowjet union.

If you read all the threads of this forum category you will find discussions where people complain about JED almost in offensive language.
Why do you think, not one of them is participating to this discussion?

The only persons who have responded are "Joomla insider" including you.
[Meanwhile after writing this also two neutrals]

The reason is very easy.
The people who formerly shouted loud against JED fear of getting serious "disadvantages" because this discussion seems to be something which really doesn't taste for "Joomla insiders".

A very prominent extension has been baned because it used a md5 encryption for validating a key.
No ioncubed code just a md5 validation, the rest of the code is open source. The software works fine without key.
Any PHP dummy would be able to remove the validation.
So what did the extension developer wrong?

The fear of some rulers is no more able to enforce such "rules" if developers does have a lobby in JED by placing their own candidates.
This is the reason why you are reacting so thin-skinned.

I also do not know what you allways talking about devs with one extension like one slideshow etc...
There were times when I wrote there is too much junk extension on JED and got a reply from JED members like:
"They count the same as if you have 10 extensions on JED".
There were times where I wrote about "heavy weight" and "light weight" extension and got the same answer.
Now you are comming around with: "they don't count as much as others who have 10 extensions". oO

I don't know from which country you are, but if you go for election, has the billionair more votes than the poor?
Every extension developer who has listed an extension has one vote!
Certainly you can say every extension developers who has at least one extension and is maintaing it over one year has a vote, to prevent people abusing the election.

I also don't understand that you always talking about the "users".
I clearly wrote in the former post why users would never get disadvantages from a developer elected JED, but developers can get much trouble by a user elected JED.
If you claim that I don't answer your question you should read what I wrote before.

The JED is a part of Joomla where many people are offering extensions. Most of them are for free.
The users are consumers.
Why should consumers decide about how to offer mine and other devs extensions?
If I could decide about M$ products I would say: "Hey give us everything for free"!
This doesn't make sense and is not fair.

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Google says: Don't be evil!
Just imagine: Darth Vader used to be once Anakin Skywalker!
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If a developer uploads an extension that breaks the rules then they have broken the rules. end off.
If a developer wants to b1tch and moan that the rules are unfair then they can decide not to take part, or adapt their software to takepart in the free listing service to boost their traffic.
I understand that most of the "shut up or be banned" people are those moaning they have been caught and instead of taking it on the chin, continue to moan. Wonder what your definition of a normal question is.
Not participating in these forums does not mean i dont read them.
Again, you are splitting/ignoring non developers. creating a developer only team is probably the same as dictatorship/censorship. (shock i mentioned that word).
The current jed team (mix of jed user skills developers and users) that you accuse of a dictatorship seem to release all extensions if they fit the criteria of the listing rules.
The rules have obviously been blanket placed to prevent abuse.

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My Goodness all the time and the contact and extra step i did with developer would contradict your statements As a Canadian i am really offended to be call that.



Again untrue unless if you flooded jed with extensions full of same errors I would put you back to the end of the line to waste my time Hope you cannot blame me for that.

Happen before 2 hours of reviews all same errors is my time not as important as others?



As with any child if they do not get immediate attention they start to cry



Those are the type of comment why jed editor get feed up and rather take a summer holiday then help any one sad

Remember we are all part of the community hoping to help in every areas. To attack one group is the same as attacking all volunteer.

I will not reply if you reply to my comment cannot waste my time

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@mandville:

Absoultely wrong!
I got such a statement.
Two other extensions developers got the same statement.
And also this extension dev complains about that:
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=731376

Well me, the two I know and the one from the link are all established and fair Joomla Extension Developers.
You are absolutely wrong if you think just only the bad guys are getting this statement.


Abuse what?
Abuse is if I down rate a competitor.
Abuse is if I vote for myself.
Abuse is if I fake my views.
Abuse is if I am in breach with the GPL.

ABUSE IS NOT:
If I follow the rules of the GPL but some guys do think it must go another way!

These rules are subjective opinions who should be basically the representatives of the devs.
No asking, just doing things out of a personal opionion or philosophy.

Please don't understand me wrong.
I really appreciate the work of the JED team!
They did help me a lot and I am thankful.
Actually I have a good relationship to them as long ...
... yes ... now this is the point ... as long as I don't bother them.

Just an example:
I have an guy which has systematically down rated some extension specific add-ons because he didn't get a refund.
First he tried to down rate the main extensions and failed because of starting an obvious commercial dispute.
Then he started to down rate my apps (ext specific).
I reported them all and non has been removed.

So now I could open a ticket and explain, document and proove everything.
But:
1. I don't know if I do bother again and probably get baned because of opening a ticket, and tickets shouldn't be about reviews ........
2. It doesn't matter because as long there are not a bunch of sentences which are against a JED rule it will not removed. The reviews are lies and if you would read them and the very first rejected review you would know the intention. The intention is just to down rate out of commercial dispute which is generally against the rules.

These are the reasons why developers are not satisfied.
A JED team of developers would understand the situation and would handle the right way.

_________________
Google says: Don't be evil!
Just imagine: Darth Vader used to be once Anakin Skywalker!
http://www.mooj.org

you threw a blanket, so did i (albeit a smaller one) and we get to the point.
i guess that the developers on the jed team are not good enough in your opinion .
assumption here-- so a person downrates you while leaving a bad review, you make a comment about commercial dispute. is the review and rating not removed quick enough for you? do you moan every 6 hours to get it removed or wait for it to be thoroughly investigated.
you still have answered NONE of my original questions.
* use of ! over ?
* your defined proposal on how to implement this take over.
* why you still dont respect users.

most people would say ...oooh look paint drying.....must build a bridge to get to it
/eof

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Quite simple solution: Make the process of review more transparent. That way JED-members are under public scrutiny and devs see why it takes so long.

Three further remarks:


That is incorrect. Canadians are heavily affected by any US-american decision to, e.g., pollute the environment, restrict traffic on their roads, change exchange rates, etc. This is due to size and power of the USA and thus extends even more to states like Afghanistan. Still, these people are not allowed to vote, and I agree: they should be.
Why are they not allowed? Because democracy is still bound to the state, i.e. a clearly defined territory and people living in that jurisdiction, and not so much to people being affected by a particular decision.

Sorry Brian, but when an extension is rejected that counts for me as a decision thus making the JED also a decision making body.

@mandville: From my experience I can say that your fears of someone hijacking the system is quite ungrounded. In the end it's the usual suspects who end up running such an organisation, i.e. those who did it before, the hard core. Why? Because you need to find someone who is willing to do unpaid work reliably on a daily basis. And you need to mobilise people for elections, you need to organise rallies, or at least a website for candidates, you need to agree on the means of the election, you need rules on how to elect and when, etc. pp.
That may work the first time but after the initial excitement it will get harder and harder to mobilise.

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Extension Developers
I must admit that I do not think Extension Developers should be in, let alone run the JED Team. I have offered my own help over the years, but only because there was a shortage of people (and I wasn't accepted anyway, so that's that).

What is overlooked (once again, as is so often in Joomla) is that neither Extension Developers nor End Users should be the focus of the community. Focussing on those gives you either unhealthy competition (because many extension developers see it as their job to 'sell more than the competition') or disinterested blandness (because, for good reasons, End Users couldn't care less about politics or governing - they often build one site with joomla and only a small percentage hangs around afterwards).

What the JED needs to focus on is the professionals who use the JED and need to use it for a living - Site Developers.

If Site Developers were to govern the JED to their own advantage it would automatically be to the advantage of Extension Developers AND End Users as well. Thus everybody is happy and we can all chill out.

(Well, not yet and not entirely, but more on that below.)

Democratic Election Process
Elected - by whom and into what?

For whatever reasons, there is no transparency to outsiders as to what is happening behind the curtain. So I am not in a position to judge whether being on the JED Team is a pleasant or desirable experience or what the experience and structure is in the first place. And nobody in this thread, with the exception of JED Team members, should pass any judgment either. I can only imagine - if most of the technology is still outdated Mosets Tree from years ago then it will be neither, considering the volume of input they have to deal with.

To have any kind of democratic process going on, people must understand how the JED works, otherwise we're all just loading ideas and people into a cannon and shooting them into the void. That's not a smart idea (I know, I have tried before).

People need to know what happens, who does it and where help is needed. BUT they must understand that that will not give them authority to influence the process right away. If they see things that they think go wrong, they should have the power to "run for office" on a promise of certain changes and if the community likes it, we'll all be better off with them in charge.

That's how politics work in the real world - if that was run by armchair politicians who sit in a chair on their lawn, complaining all day how everybody is wrong, we'd have a problem. (Again, I have done that, useless.)

But again - for that, they must be given the opportunity to see what is going on. And I get that the JED Team is afraid of public scrutiny - because public scrutiny is at an all time high right now. But it has to be understood that that scrutiny is simply the force of the community trying to help... turned sour.

Clarifying the processes and properly managing expectations and responsibilities is the way to go.

Extension Developers have a role, though
We are problem solvers and we do see a lot of problems with the JED - speaking about technology, not politics. Site Developers need our services and they will need it in the JED as well - we can give them features that will make it easier for them to make life easier for everybody.

TL;DR:

• Make the processes transparent, maybe even completely public
• Accept only Site Developers into the JED Team
• Run whatever elections you want, almost any will do
• Have Extension Developers compete to provide development services for the JED (just put the code and a test set of data on github, we'll figure it out)

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Id like to add one point:

Make the leadership of the JED accountable - if it doesnt work for as long as the case has been now - get someone else to take over so let the JED Team actually have the own right and power to overturn the "king" and let them elect a new one.

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I would disagree with that. Doesn't sound much like democracy anyhow. Proper term limits (a year or two) will solve this.

The word Accountability is thrown around very loosely on this forum and I don't think it's justified - for the reasons I detailed above: People outside have no idea whatsoever what goes on and thus should not pass judgement. We need transparency first, then accountability according to established, democratic principles.

Put differently: You can only "overturn the king" if you accept that this is a monarchy and only in a monarchy does that make sense. Not in a democracy.

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If I offer an extension only via my site I decide and make my rules.
If 10 devs creating a site to publish their extensions these 10 devs are making the rules.
If 5000 devs are publishing their extensions on a site they should elect the representatives to make the rules.

What the hell shall be sooo difficult to understand this?

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Google says: Don't be evil!
Just imagine: Darth Vader used to be once Anakin Skywalker!
http://www.mooj.org

If there is an elected organ and they have a leader - the leader should be possible to be removed if the majority (could be 2/3rds or whatever rule) has a vote of noconfidence.

That is a simple process of allowing accountability - and it builds directly on the transparency and democracy by allowing it to be handled by those elected.

Also i dont see why developers should not be involved in the JED - afterall the JED is not only representing users but also creators.

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Maybe I got a bit hung up on your describing of the situation as a monarchy with a "king". If you really get 2/3 non-confidence and follow proper procedure, then yes, this is a tool that makes sense to have. Although I'm not sure there would be much use for it if you have proper transparency.

I guess I just don't think it's useful in this discussion here - I get the sense that you are trying to mix your criticism of the current system into the planning of a better system. Good. Noted. But I don't think anybody disagrees and it introduces more emotions to a debate that might profit from being more cool headed.

As for the reasoning why Extension Developers shouldn't be in the team, I think you gave enough reason in that sentence alone. The JED is not about representing anybody, it is a way for users to discovers solutions in the ecosystem. You as an Extension Dev may see it that way and that's fine, but it is precisely the reason why I think other people should run the show.

As an extension developer, your job is basically to make your software useful and attractive to users. That puts you in a direct and fundamental conflict of interest - not just for your own software, also for that of your 'competition' and I would argue for any software in general.

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As such the JED in your perception also represents the needs of the Users.

So yes the JED does represent someone - and we should be clear about the interests involved and what they represent only then and by transparancy that follows can you ensure the democracy too.

The JED should not only be a platform for users but also for developers - make sure to remember the very symbiotic relations between Joomla and its 3rd parties.

As for having accountability its a default in all democratic systems on the planet - some places its just 50,1% votes for noconfidence - other places its 2/3rds - there is many different systems but its not just about how bad it is now - its about making sure it doesnt happen again by having the prober institutions and structures that secures it.

Everyone know knows the dictator is a doing bad things but there is no mechanism in place to keep in a check and balances system so the only solution is more or less to kill the dictator and revolt.

Democratic systems doesnt need that approach - as it has structures and mechanisms to prevent the need for that.

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Hmm, now you're just moving letters around. I wrote that it "doesn't represent anybody" to make the point that it's not about people representing themselves. To say that it "represents the needs of the Users" is a cute twisting of words, but still just a twisting of words.

The interests involved are simple: People want solutions to their problems, everything else has to step back. Particularly the Egos of Extension Developers.

The process that leads to that providing of solutions needs transparency, but again: I don't think anybody really argues differently, most of us just differ on execution. Same thing for Accountability: I don't see anybody arguing the opposite, so why do you keep making that point?



Yes, everyone knows that. But that kind of language does not enable a discussion, it only heats it up to a point where people feel attacked and we don't get anywhere with this. Once again.

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Its not just a matter of words nor people representing themselfes.

Its matter of the interests they represent - not the individuals.

So the team behind the JED should be equally representative of the different interests they should represent - All together - not just users, not just developers but all.

I was giving a valid point on why democracies has exit strategy solutions and why the structures is important - if you cant discuss transparancy, democracy, exit strategies etc. because you are afraid of peoples feelings then it sure is a sad state things are in - afterall how can a very few people count more than the project and its future as a whole.

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And ps. yes people has been debating for years - yet nothing happens - nothing - because there is no accountability.

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@skOre



Disagree!
This is not about ego. It is about business or reputation.
Again if I as consumer could decide about the products of M$, Apple or Adobe I would decide the price of Photoshop for 1 €!
You don't see that there is big professional work behind some extensions.
The interests of developers don't count at the moment.

If every dev would remove his extensions on JED, what would JED be?
An empty website!

This is not a one way ticket both sides must take advantage from JED not only users.

Just imagine the developers start a developers union.
Then the union decides to remove all extensions from JED, what now!

Consumers are welcome and no developer would do anything that put the users off because of own interests.
What you are talking is about "socialism", which we all know didn't work!

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I would appreciate if you quoted where I said any of that.

Maybe it will help you if I rephrase: It is of no use to the thread to discuss these points because we all agree on them. The reason why nothing has happened for years is not because there is no accountability - it is because nobody has figured out how to get from that agreement (on the basics: somewhat broken situation right now, need for democracy etc.) to a solution that enables that accountability. Because that part is incredibly hard.

Instead, we get the same heated feelings, over and over again, to a point where the people in the JED Team feel threatened. You may not appreciate that as a problem, but it exists and it is why we cannot move forward.


It is your personal interest to be represented and that is of use solely to yourself. Not to the community. You are part of the community, but you must understand that there is a difference between your own interest and that of the community:

The interest of the community is not simply a sum of the individual members' interests, but of a discussion of those members about their interests.

And that's the part that is hard - and the part we are trying to conduct here.


Yes, clearly this is not about Ego.


Just marking the spot where you finally lost all credibility. I would encourage you to re-read what I have written, this time a little more carefully, and come up with a proper response.

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How on earth can one-sided representation be socialism?

But except for the strange comparison - i agree that the JED should be put together by people from different aspects of the community not just from one aspect.

The way Joomla embraces the very different sides and aspects of the community and living up to its name is the essens here of it being all together.

Because unlike sk0re i dont believe that the community has a soul of its own or interests of its own - but on the other hand the communities interests is the aggregated interests of the diverce members of the community - and here we are at the very core of what Joomla is and what the Joomla Community is.

As for nothing happening its a matter of the current structure requires for some people to set in motion changes as they are dominant keyfigures in the proces - if those people dont act or take part then nothing will happen short of a revolution - so the remaining members of those in position on the CTL, PLT and OSM need to take the responsibility upon them to get the proces moving ahead or we will be facing the wall (again) and be in a situation where the only option for change is the revolt - and i dont think any of us thinks thats a good solution nor should never be required in this day and age.

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@skOre

If you are writing about I do understand this as:
"What developers need doesn't count just only the needs of the users!"
I conclude:
Well the software which is my property (anyway even GPL) shall be offered under an environment which is regulated by the users!
This means my right of self-determination will be rejected and I need to follow what users dictate.
This is so much like someone to expropriate.
I follow => socialism!

Certainly this is a long shot. But it feels extremly like the bad side of socialism.

All power to the people.

_________________
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Just imagine: Darth Vader used to be once Anakin Skywalker!
http://www.mooj.org