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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:51 pm 
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Thank you, and yes, it has already been fixed and submitted to the JED in a new installer package, 2 minutes after replying! :)

I don't know about any other stuff like that (and I don't think there is any), only 1 JavaScript file which is non GPL, but its fine to have non GPL JavaScript files according to the checklist, so all looks good.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:54 am 
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Good, Max. Of course, that puts your request at the back of the line, but I hope that it will soon be published.

(from the other thread) => Mark - You are correct that the base64 encoding was removed immediately and is NOT a problem today. It sounds like maybe there were other issues that might not have been understood or documented that have now been fixed. (Of course, the extension is now at the end of the line, but that's only fair.)

I have a few questions about how these rules fit together that can wait until Chronoforms is published again. To be honest, I don't see any problem with how Chromoform did the credit links, the phone home, or the base 64 encoding. It seems to me that each of those were used within the rules.

Having said that, the restriction that was cleaned up today was definitely a problem that has now been fixed.

When this is all cleared up, I'd like to learn more about the distinction in how these approaches can and cannot be used. But, it can wait. Getting this extension listed is the priority.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:39 am 
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@nonumber

nonumber wrote:
The JED isn't bending the GPL, the JED just has additional rules. And that is the right the JED has. It can have any rules it wants on top of the GPL rules it wants.


I agree that JED may do what it wants but NOT IN THE NAME OF GPL!
If there are additional rules, all extensions need to be based on a very own license which fits to JED's requirements.
But GPL is GPL. There are no extending of the license rules.

If something is allowed in GPL and JED, which claims to "protect" the GPL it, must allow the FREEDOM to do this.
GPL is about FREEDOM in principal If there are additional rules they restrict the FREEDOM of GPL.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:38 am 
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@mad4joomla

So what is the issue here? That the JED do not like you obfuscating code with base64?

Please tell me what you need this for. Why do you want to use base64 in your code? What have you got to hide?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:44 am 
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@nonumber

Just an example.
My Proforms Apps are using base64 encoding for storing the parameters of the apps.
The PHP App does this as well as the SQL App.
Means people are entering their PHP Code at the app admin and it will be stored encoded.
Then at the moment of usage it will be decoded and evaled.
So do I breach the GPL now???

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:53 am 
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It has been stated a couple of times now - quite clearly - that base64 encoding of code or XML files is the problem here. So not the encoding of data.

Furthermore - this is not in breach of the GPL, obviously. If it was, then we'd have a different set of problems altogether.

Instead, this is "just" a nuisance for the JED Editors, so they made a rule against it. Which I fully understand - I don't get why people would want to encode their code to begin with. It's silly.

I really don't think we need to waste any more air about this part of the conversation.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:07 am 
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I don't agree with that at all.

Well as nonumber used to that and many others before it is the aim just not to leave the link bank in plain text in the code.
The intention is not to make it too easy to remove the link back.

It is the minmum return of invest a developer can demand: an intact link back.
All the people/web workers who want to remove the link back are people who are working for a company or for any other commercial project.
The aim of them is to use the component on a commercial project but not let participate the developer on the earnings.
IMHO this is highly "parastic".

So why is this so bad if the link back is encoded. You can use plain hexcode which wouldn't also show the link back in plain text but nobody would say this is encoding.
So what shall be difference???

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:14 am 
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skOre wrote:
It has been stated a couple of times now - quite clearly - that base64 encoding of code or XML files is the problem here.


Well as I explained in my example above also my PHP app and the SQL app are using base64 encoding to store the app parameters.
Well this is code which is encoded and later decoded and evaled.
But for this case it is done by the user and not the developer.
Does this mean that the user may not use the app because the code he/she enters is stored base64 encoded in the database?
Does this mean that users have the right to do this and devlopers not?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:19 am 
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@mad4joomla
It seems like you don't (or don't want to) understand what the discussion is about.
As explained several times in this thread already, and like sk0re says, this isn't about valid use of base64 to encode data (or passing of data. Or stuff like url encoding.

The issue here is encoding entire chuncks of php code (as in functions/classes) or entire files.
This is used by some (like by me in the past) to make it harder for people to see the actual code and know what it does. For instance to obfuscate code that does call homes or checks license ids.

Even if encoding (not encrypting) is allowed in GPL, the idea behind doing this is not inline with the GPL and Open Source philosophy.

Quote:
I agree that JED may do what it wants but NOT IN THE NAME OF GPL!

They are NOT doing this in the name of GPL, they are simply stating the rules they have.

Quote:
If something is allowed in GPL and JED, which claims to "protect" the GPL it, must allow the FREEDOM to do this.
GPL is about FREEDOM in principal If there are additional rules they restrict the FREEDOM of GPL.

That is circular reasoning. Of course: extra rules limit the freedom. That is the whole point of the extra rules. The rules in GPL limit freedom. Extra rules in JED limit the freedom even more.
That doesn't mean the JED is against the GPL or not protecting it.

And again, the JED has rules to which extension developers must abide to be able to use the JEDs service.

That there are other senseless rules in the JED is another discussion. But extra rules to make sure developers don't try to do sneaky things in code is one of the good extra rules :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:27 am 
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Quote:
Well as nonumber used to that and many others before it is the aim just not to leave the link bank in plain text in the code.
The intention is not to make it too easy to remove the link back.

Exactly, and that is a BAD thing.
If you as a developer try to make it harder for people to change your code, then YOU are going against the principle of GPL/Open Source.
PS: By saying I did this in the past, I am saying I was doing the wrong thing!

If you want to do stuff like that, why not simply step away from GPL and encrypt your code.
Either embrace GPL and make your code open - completely open, or don't use GPL.

Even the idea of placing a link back to you site in the frontend is something I find pretty pathetic and not in the spirit of Open Source. I would even vote for an extra JED rule to disallow any extensions that place backlinks in frontend views.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:30 am 
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@nonumber

Well I absoultely agree that if there are entire code parts encoded and files this needs to be forbidden.
I am not talking of such examples.

My approach is to say a single function call or simple if then validation is not a big deal.

If I follow your statement this means that there is no problem if the HTML code which includes the link back is encoded, right?
But I don't think that JED likes this either.
I assume that JED's interpretation of the encoding rule also includes HTML.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:35 am 
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@nonumber

This is a philosophical thing.
It seems that your GPL philospohy is going to another direction than mine and I respect that.
But you also need to respect the philosophical appoaches of others.

At the end it is every devs own software so it should be his/her freedom to offer it on his/her own way.
Using the monopoly of JED to dictate JED's philosphy even extensions are actually not in breach with GPL is questionable.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:41 am 
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Quote:
This is a philosophical thing.
It seems that your GPL philospohy is going to another direction than mine and I respect that.
But you also need to respect the philosophical appoaches of others

Well, there you have it, the question is: What is the philosophical approach of the JED (and Joomla). And that is where many of these extra rules come from.

It is not about me respecting your philosophical approach or you respecting mine. It is about respecting Joomla's approach.

I don't agree with the JED either on many aspects by the way :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:48 am 
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nonumber wrote:
I don't agree with the JED either on many aspects by the way :)


Yes I read the chat conversion of you and brian :)

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:26 pm 
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Hi

@mad4joomla: if you need another reason to follow Peter's advice and remove backlincks, please consider that we are living in a Panda/Penguin world, and having such backlinks is probably doing you more bad than good, as there are good chances it will constitute an unnatural linking patterns (https://www.google.fr/?q=unnatural+linking+patterns). Really not worth the risk.

And then you get into all that base64/making-it-more-difficult-for-users-to-remove-the-backlinks non-sense.

If you absolutely want to have credit, you should probably simply display a copyright notice ( (c) Mad4Joomla - 2012) on the frontend of your extension(s).

Removing that copyright notice would be a direct violation of GPL, so users would not be allowed to do it. JED would probably also have a hard time adding a rule that directly opposes a GPL license provision.

But then you get into more commercial problems/inneficiencies, which is why this method, though common a few years back as been dropped by most extensions I know of.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:54 pm 
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@shumisha
I assume that you didn't have noticed that the source of this discussion is based on a different topic.
For me everything works fine. I found my way and my business model.

This discussion started because of the banishment of Chronoforms.
It is not about copyright links or other link backs it is a matter of principle.
Especially about that JED is adding questionable rules for things which are not breaching GPL.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:37 pm 
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Yes, I know this is a sideline of this discussion, but I simply cannot let this statement stand:

shumisha wrote:
If you absolutely want to have credit, you should probably simply display a copyright notice ( (c) Mad4Joomla - 2012) on the frontend of your extension(s).

Removing that copyright notice would be a direct violation of GPL, so users would not be allowed to do it. JED would probably also have a hard time adding a rule that directly opposes a GPL license provision.

Just to clarify: If we're talking about the default GPL, the bold statement is false. Leaving aside the exception noted below (which only concerns distribution of copies), you are free to remove any such notices from the output of a program that is licensed GPL - of any version. If those exceptions are exercised, the bold statement is only half true.

The rule of thumb is: changing the output of a piece of software is precisely the kind of right that the GPL protects.

To quote the GPL:

Quote:
You may convey verbatim copies of the Program's source code as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate copyright notice; keep intact all notices stating that this License and any non-permissive terms added in accord with section 7 apply to the code; keep intact all notices of the absence of any warranty; and give all recipients a copy of this License along with the Program.

Using the software to produce an output does not constitute conveying a copy of the software:

Quote:
To “convey” a work means any kind of propagation that enables other parties to make or receive copies. Mere interaction with a user through a computer network, with no transfer of a copy, is not conveying.

Furthermore, even distributing copies of the software with the interface notice of copyright removed is legal and perfectly fine - as long as the source code (remember - this is the thing that the license actually covers) still keeps its notices:

Quote:
An interactive user interface displays “Appropriate Legal Notices” to the extent that it includes a convenient and prominently visible feature that (1) displays an appropriate copyright notice, and (2) tells the user that there is no warranty for the work (except to the extent that warranties are provided), that licensees may convey the work under this License, and how to view a copy of this License. If the interface presents a list of user commands or options, such as a menu, a prominent item in the list meets this criterion.

In that regard, the pure claim of copyright does not satisfy the conditions for an "Appropriate Legal Notice" and are thus not eligible for the kind of protection noted.

What you may do, however, is add special terms, as noted in GPLv3 Section 7:

Quote:
Notwithstanding any other provision of this License, for material you add to a covered work, you may (if authorized by the copyright holders of that material) supplement the terms of this License with terms:

b) Requiring preservation of specified reasonable legal notices or author attributions in that material or in the Appropriate Legal Notices displayed by works containing it; or

c) Prohibiting misrepresentation of the origin of that material, or requiring that modified versions of such material be marked in reasonable ways as different from the original version; or

[...]

Furthermore, the GPL only allows for amendments as noted in Section 7, otherwise:

Quote:
All other non-permissive additional terms are considered “further restrictions” within the meaning of section 10. If the Program as you received it, or any part of it, contains a notice stating that it is governed by this License along with a term that is a further restriction, you may remove that term.


TL;DR: The GPL is only a concern here if we're talking about distributing copies. If we are talking about distributing copies, additional permissions or restrictions may apply.

My personal opinion: I would recommend staying away from any developer who, through whatever means, forces or tries to force his or her users to display copyright notices. It is vain and unnecessary.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Hi Skore,

Again, we're out of scope, but I'd have to disagree of sort.
Quote:
Furthermore, even distributing copies of the software with the interface notice of copyright removed is legal and perfectly fine - as long as the source code (remember - this is the thing that the license actually covers) still keeps its notices:
You're saying this, and to justify it you quote a paragraph from the GPL that says the opposite ie: you are not allowed to remove "Appropriate legal notice". Granted, only a copyright notice would fall a little bit short, but just a few more words will do. Given the purpose, that's perfectly suitable and does constitute the exception, the one part of a GPL code that you are not allowed to modify.
However, and there you're absolutely right, all of this is only to be considered in the case of distribution of the software. This wouldn't include custom-made modification for instance.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:21 pm 
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shumisha wrote:
You're saying this, and to justify it you quote a paragraph from the GPL that says the opposite ie: you are not allowed to remove "Appropriate legal notice".

Yes, which is why I qualified my statement in the next sentence.

shumisha wrote:
Granted, only a copyright notice would fall a little bit short, but just a few more words will do. Given the purpose, that's perfectly suitable and does constitute the exception, the one part of a GPL code that you are not allowed to modify.

I'm not so sure just a few more words won't do. The GPL specifically requires copyright and warranty claims. The "Appropriate Legal Notice" point was actually well debated in the drafting of the license (here is one of the discussions I could find on short notice), but its effect boils down to a social implication, not one that is really concerned with the legal text:

In my opinion, to satisfy the requirement of an "Appropriate Legal Notice" would add a non-removeable visual feature to a piece of software that would certainly be rejected by users. Looking around at existing pieces of software makes it rather clear. That means that while such a thing may be legally correct, it would create a situation in which the software simply isn't used anymore, rendering the point moot.

(For instance, imagine a web shop that would claim everything on the site to be copyrighted by the software developer as well as claiming that there is "no warranty" - that might drive customers away rather quickly...)

To sum up: The problem here is not a legal, but more of a moral or social one. What is discussed here are vanity marks of "copyright" - those clearly go above and beyond the protection of attribution that a reasonable developer would expect. Simply look at prominent software packages and check whether they enforce any sort of "Appropriate Legal Notice" on their interface. That alone should make an evaluation in court rather interesting. Particularly considering the fact that we're talking about extensions to a larger system here. Just imagine if every component and module displayed their vanity marks at the same time!

Developers (particularly commercial developers such as myself) often forget that the law is subject to interpretation and evaluation, it's not a fixed set of rules that produce errors when missed. What you have to ask yourself is - what is in the interest of the user? This discussion was not about the interest of the user.

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