Joomla! Discussion Forums

Good thread.

But surely gives the lie to claim Joomla is "easy to manage"!

Who wrote that, I wonder. 
(Claim maybe true if you're regular human who installs, does a little with J and moves on; or if you're some kind of cyberbeing. Otherwise, "easy" is just plain wrong.)

To be perfectly factual, on a comparative basis, Joomla is very easy.

Firstly- Joomla takes nearly thousands of web design functions and maps them to simple buttons.  Point and click web design.  It is a CMS, and as such, it takes over 80% of the work out of building,  deploying, maintaining, and securing a web site.  I can simply mention the amount of time I have save not typing this out in full:



I have probably saved 50 man hours on HTML elements alone.. And that is just one tiny example, overrall, Joomla has saved me countless  hundreds of hours in design and maintenance time. Joomla is the best damned employee I've ever had

Secondly- Any website has to be secured, and Joomla makes much of this ready integrated and the rest is fairly easy to implement if you read a little.  I don't care what you find to build websites, they all have to be secured, and without the benefit of the assistance Joomla, or other CMS' offer, you have a long days work ahead doing it all yourself.

I have worked with and on a few commercial/ enterprise grade CMS systems, and they don't offer much more than Joomla other than Oracle databases and ASP encoding, but you still have to go through all the steps of securing your property against attack as anything else.

Hi B:


- so you fit the cyberbeings category!   

I still don't believe Joomla is "simple to manage" (quoting more accurately) for regular folk. Not without qualifications: simple compared to what.

Martin

Simple compared to if I told you to open a copy of notepad or dreamweaver and build a site using HTML, CSS, PHP, and Javascript...
Populate the tables of a MySQL database while you're in there.. And when you're done, could you draw up an outline of the appropriate htaccess files, secure the database against malicious intent, and generally keep your frontpage off Zone-H?

Simple Compared to anything, and equal to other CMS software.

Joomla made the job so easy and understandable, I took on an apprentice when he was 16, and in the past 2 years, he has learned more about web design and is more than qualified to deploy and manage any Joomla deployment..  ask him to build a common web page and he cant get past whether it should be Strict or Transitional, ask him to inject a new table into the DB and he doesn't know GET from REQUEST.. Yet he can build a fairly rich and complex module from scratch, encode content items from the table to the div, and utilize CSS to obtain specific results on individual elements.

  THAT makes me think it's pretty darn easy to use.

You're kidding here, right. 

- Simple compared to anything like, say, taking Notepad, writing some text, and saving as a Notepad file?

Certainly not.
Simple compared to other CMS, maybe - a major qualification.
For sure     - many things are simple compared to that, for anyone who doesn't know html, css, php and javascript!!

I had someone email me, who was utterly bamboozled by Mambo (and J so far not so dissimilar). Included:

Clearly even install wasn't easy or simple for this person.

Hadn't meant to take this thread off course - it's valuable knowing re major no-nos.
But helps show Joomla isn't simple compared to "anything". From developing and testing server onwards, are various complexities compared to many of the things people do on computers.

Sure, if your webpage consists of a text file, however it is that you make that work....
you cut my words in half, took them out of context and made a rather ridiculous  reply to them.

It's not as simple as making a notepad file, smartguy..  remember, notepad allows you to save documents to any extension you desire, including .htm .html .php etc

Any idiot can write a paragraph and save it as a text file,  I was referring to the ability of skilled designers to create entire webpages straight from a blank sheet in notepad, saving it as a .html and uploading it to their server for display as a website.

Funny enough that you then actually quote the correct version of my words;



And your answer makes you look even more clueless and likely unqualified to participate in this thread in any useful capacity:



Yep, many things are simple compared to writing a full blown web site from notepad:
Washing a dog
Driving an automatic
riding a bike
using Joomla


[/quote]

Apparently they have a hard time with readiing instructions as well!
Perhaps both of you need to study the art of reading and following directions before you venture into the world of web design.



The point which you have so conveniently missed, and was stated in the most plain terms possible:

Which would be easier:

• Creating a website from scratch, using the standard tools such as notepad, ftp, mysql, php, html, css,  hell- let's throw dreamweaver or golive in there just for kicks.. Now make it secure and manageable through an intuitive user interface
• Deploy a copy of joomla, then secure it

As you can see, argumentative sir, it is very apparent that you are misunderstanding even the most well written of explanations.

Anyway, I have carried this on much longer than needed or warranted in hopes of showing you the error in your statements, but it is apparent that you are 100% correct no matter what I say.
Therefore, I'll just simply agree with you and say :

Yes, there are many things easier to do than joomla...

And this is were you stop getting any reply out of me on this subject.


[Note to Moderators- please feel free and welcome to simply delete any of my replies to this poster.  While they were in good intent to explain the ease of use of Joomla, I feel the last few posts detract from this thread regardless of my efforts.  My apologies for helping to lead this topic astray.]

Maybe the eleventh stupid trick is getting ourselves caught in a flame war despite our best intentions. Who hasn't been there too many times before? 

Heheheh thats was amazing advices ...

I will try doing all these at the same time, and hope nothing will happen 2 my site ..

Thanks for the time and effort in writting this article.

Regards,

Michel

its nice i like it...

Joomla has NEVER saved me 50 hours. This last upgrade (1.0.15) took away my .htaccess file, returned a htaccess.txt, and now have spent two hours trying to find out what the permissions of the .htaccess are supposed to be set at. (read a little!)
Just noticed all the new posts on being hacked. just after the new upgrade.....hmmmm. I wonder why?

MOD EDIT: Please note that this person probably means a Fantastico upgrade, not a Joomla upgrade. Fantastico is helpful for initial installs, but often causes trouble if used for upgrades. This is because most applications are further customized after the install and Fantastico has no way of knowing about these changes. This is true for many applications listed in Fantastico.

@Jypsy

The Joomla! upgrade would not have "taken away" your .htaccess file, the distribution does not come with a .htaccess and the fact that you only FTP the files to server and not run any scripts, always precludes Joomla! taking or making any changes itself. However, it is likely to return a htaccess.txt file if it has changed since the revious release, if it has not changed then it is likely that you mistakingly used the full file distribution and not just the upgrade distribution (upgrade distributions, only contain changed files)

As for the number of "hacked" posts, well this has been discussed many many times, and if you were to take in to account the many many successful sites and secured sites that no-one posts, "wow, everything is ok" about then it is a very small number, if you were also to consider the recoveries discussed, read the post resolutions and the Admins Security Guide, you would also find that in most cases, the exploit or defacement actually occurred due to a number of misconfiguration, not actually Joomla! errors, such as PHP register_globals being set ON, Directory/Files Permissions being incorrectly set, or general weak server configurations.

and... in any case, this entry, thread and document is a light hearted look at common mistakes, thoughts and activities that many of us, including me, have made at one point in time, if we can't laugh at ourselves, who can we laugh at?

HI rliskey
tHANKS for tHE gREAT pOST..

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought it was serious.

And what I said was true, probably another "Stupid Mistake" to add is letting your host's Fantastico do the upgrade for you. cause when it was over, my '.htaccess' file WAS gone! there was an htaccess.txt file. and when I changed it it was given 755 permissions. I didn't think that was right, but it has been a long time since I had to do that kind of changing, and I could not find the reference to what the permissions should be.

Lots of other things went wrong too. And hours and hours later I decided I had to risk humiliation by forum moderators and start asking, commenting, and posting about some of the problems.

Also I finally 'bit the bullet' and downloaded MAMP to test the new Joomla 1.5, now 1.5.1, on my MAc. Whew! It isn't any easier, in fact, some things are just plain missing, by that I mean they are not replaced. And this time I downloaded it myself.

By the by, I just got another star lit up under my name. What does that mean? Is it ?

The stars depict your forum membership status, based on the number of posts you have made.

As for you problems on your host, maybe you need to talk to your host about then, they are out of joomla!'s control unfortunately, also the fantastico install is not associated with the Joomla! project either.

I use a MAC and have found MAMP to be perfectly adequate and contain everything I need from an Administration and Developers point of view, with J! 1.0.0 through 1.0.15 and 1.5.0 BETA1 through 1.5.1 without any issues. Your comments and statements are not descriptive enough to offer any assistance or help in this matter.

I would also be extremely surprised if any moderator in the Joomla! Forum's would humiliate you for asking questions, that is what we are all here for, however, if you do feel that you have a grievance or have been mis-treated, use the "Report Post" function and it will be reviewed by the Forum Administrators and will be dealt with accordingly.

"Lucky are they that can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
-- (forgot who first laughed their way through that quote)

In that case, a database-driven, user-authenticated CMS with award-winning ease of use, design, and features, as well as thousands of freely available extensions, and a host of comprehensive support sites with many dedicated volunteers is not for you.

Another solution, perhaps less feature-rich and therefore easier to use, may be preferable for you. You can check this report, but be forewarned that it is not free.
http://www.cmswatch.com/CMS/Report/

Oh, no, rlisky. I've put in too many hours, months and now years on Joomla to give it up now.
And I have explored hundreds, it seems, other CMS. not ready to take the curve for them yet.
I just wish there were a store for Joomla that does not look like oscommerce. I don't like the interface, nor do I like VirtueMart. Both are way too complicated and complex. And with poor support.
I can totally relate to those who have designed websites for clients who are not web-savvy. So many updates is unnerving. Security issues recurr with every update. You think you have it all set. Then comes the update and it is undone.

So top 10 stupid things a joomla administrator can do is so ironic. Believe me, I get the joke.

Besides, when it all comes together, I love Joomla. I just wish I could make all the things promised work.

Your suggestion is not easier. And sweat-equity is not free.
If something doesn't work like it's supposed to, is that a 'bug' or is that user's fault?

Jypsy

mabe we should post this one as forum stickie...

when i look to the first questions again...

back to top

You know, it is easy to say that someone is not as smart as you. Especially when one had undoubtedly made the same mistakes, and gained experience from the mistakes already.

Sometimes I get the feeling of being part of the Joomla! family. Most other times, I do not feel that way.

If there are security steps that one should take when one begins to use a program, if it is really important, then why doesn't the smarter people lend a helping hand to the neophytes that are joining? Would it be too difficult to have on the welcome screen a checklist of things to consider closing security holes? After all, one should not be expected to instantly know everything. That kind of thing only happens in the movies, like The Matrix. When I am using something, I expect the problems to be worked out already, or at least a notice warning me that while I am stumbling in the dark, adjusting to the light that there is a cliff to fall over nearby.

I have been struggling with my websites; things are not working, as they should. Or at least as they are being touted to work. Thus far, the knee-jerk answer has been "read the instructions" like as if that is helpful. Even this forum says … Absolute Beginner's Guide to Joomla! <-- please read before posting, this means YOU. That gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

If the instructions are so useful, then why not be so kind to simply link to the appropriate portion of the instructions. If there is such a thing. Is that too much to ask?

If someone is asking something that is "obvious" then it is not "obvious" enough. If you were on a trip through the wilderness, you would expect a guide, or a sign, to point out quicksand. How would you feel if you fell in quicksand, and someone you hoped would help you would simply say, "If you only read the map, you would know quicksand is there." Having never read a map like this one before, and the key to the map is in another language.

It would not matter if Joomla! were to make it to the 103.1.5 version, if the customer service was still in the beta stage.

Like the one of the ten stupid things section mentioned, the virus comes back and blames Joomla! for the virus not being eliminated. The virus-makers are right. There should also be a checklist of steps of things to do to prevent further flair-ups. I look all of these files, and modules, and see them as some kind of dark science that only gods can understand. Unless there were a big flag pointing to a folder stating it was corrupted, right now, I would not have a clue even if I read everything.

Sure, I can spend hours, days, months, years, and maybe a lifetime, to learn every nuance of the various programs that come in contact with the site. If I wanted to do that, I would design my own website. That is not what I perceive is the purpose of Joomla! and its template driven system.

I work in the service industry dealing with the public. I have learned a long time ago that when one deals with the public, one must be tolerant of all people. It reminds me of a customer service training video. In the video, it pointed out that the number one question asked of ALL Disney (and you can replace that with anything that deals with the public. Denny's, Wal*mart, Supermarket, AM/PM, etc.) employees is "where is the bathroom" After hearing that question 50 times ... an hour! One might be tempted to say things like "You have a map don't you?" or "It is right behind you ... stupid!" or "what do I look like? The bathroom whisperer!"

For people like me, Joomla! is not our stomping ground ... yet. We need to learn our way around. It took time for you to learn all of the things you know. Give me the benefit of your superior knowledge, and experience by guiding me around the pitfalls that you know all too well. After all, I seriously doubt that the people saying this did not have help themselves, as they learned the process.

Do not get me started about what the stupid list talks about the free programs. Heck they are all free! Starting with Joomla! So, start by looking in the mirror. Even those that make the programs are attacked by the creator of the list. I know that the programs are written by humans, and wish to give feedback to assist in the growing process.

I fear to see how some of the people I have encountered raise their kids. When their kids are old enough to drive, just throw the keys at the kids, and when the kids are careening towards a school bus stop asking how to stop the car, the kids will be then told, "If you would have just read the auto manual..."

That's a fair comment. Here's the new improved checklist per your request. No need to put this on the welcome screen. Just print it out and tape it to your computer monitor.

To administer website safely you should do the following, or find someone to do this for you:

1. Research and stay current on important Internet security issues.
2. Research and stay current on important hosting security issues.
3. Research and stay current on important Apache security issues.
4. Research and stay current on important PHP security issues.
5. Research and stay current on important MySQL security issues.
6. Research and stay current on important Joomla security issues.
7. Research and stay current on important social engineering attacks.
8. Research and stay current on important defensive programing tactics.
9. Verify (or trust someone else to verify) all installed code on your site.
10. Backup early and often.

That should do it! Good luck.

It may seem unfair that choosing a hosting provider, choosing a CMS, choosing additional extensions, setting up password standards, setting up logging and backup routines, etc. requires some knowledge of the systems involved.

Keep in mind that an essential value of the GNU/Open Source development model is that you are always free to analyze the code and make your own decisions about it.

As usual, added freedom comes with added responsibilities. You are also responsible for actually using this freedom. This requires some knowledge and experience.

For those who want to forgo the trouble of learning to manage their own CMS, a managed CMS option is a better choice. In such cases, you pay for the knowledge and experience of others who work hard to provide you with an excellent product. There is no shame in doing this. It may well be the right business choice if playing with HTML and PHP is not your favorite activity. We all hire outside expertise all the time (auto repairs, open heart surgery, plumbing, bridge construction, pilots, etc.)

Here's a good example of a fully managed CMS. (I have not financial connection.)
http://www.webvanta.com/