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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:46 pm 
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@Chris
I think that is a great idea and you explained it better than I have.

I think changing Joomla 1.0.xx to Upgrading and Migrating Joomla 1.0 would be good and leave the info in each section as an explanation.

Creating the sub pages as suggested is good and would help I think.

One thing I think that needs to be included somewhere is information on how to find what version currently on.

Since this hasn't been asked yet. When looking at an existing page for possible reuse, is it possible to change the title at some point so there may be consistency?


@Webdongle
The page is incomplete just as the note says. It needs overview, fleshing out and so on.
and is there for work on by who ever wishes to work on the page. It's not just my page or just Chris's page. Everyone here on this thread has good ideas and a common goal to make the docs better. I even asked a few others to join in so we can have some sort of adhoc group to collaborate on the landing page content and structure and fix the mess the update/upgrade/migrate stuff is in by updating existing content or creating new content where necessary.

If there is an existing page that is suitable or will be suitable after some updating, then by all means replace a "non existent link" on the page with a link to an existing page. It is the general outline that needs to remain uncluttered and concise to version.

If it is felt that there is no suitable page to link to then click on the "non existent" page link provided on the landing page and create one from there. Create or add the necessary content. If a page is being rewritten then please add the {{underconstruction}} tag to the top of it first (then save) to inform others so they know what is going on with the page.

If your doing a major edits to a page and are afraid someone else may edit the page while you have edits pending, then first add the {{inuse}} tag and save the page. If your working on edits and need to quit for a period of time, then replace the inuse tag with the underconstruction tag.

Any pages that become un-needed or need to be deleted we will delete. deletions are sometimes necessary and this would be one of those times. The major editor of the page can be asked first, no problem there.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:27 am 
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PhilD wrote:
...{{underconstruction}} tag to the top of it first (then save) to inform others so they know what is going on with the page.
....

  • That is usefull but it shows you miss the main points.
  • The index (like Chris has suggested with just a few links) should be locked
  • The sub pages should be created(from the existing pages) by one or a small team of people ... on for each sub page.
  • When the sub pages have been created in the same style then they can be added to/improved by everyone.


PhilD wrote:
One thing I think that needs to be included somewhere is information on how to find what version currently on
Yes good idea and yes whoever (initially) created the sub pages would create them by incorporating everyone's ideas. The pages would be editable by everyone but the initial setup must be consistent. And that consistency can not be got by everyone doing the initial sub page at the same time.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:01 am 
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"The index (like Chris has suggested with just a few links) should be locked"
Not at this point and if possible not at all as there would be or should be no reason to . I or a number of others can do this if it becomes absolutely necessary.

The tags are normally used when there are major edits and changes being made to a page. It is to inform others that changes are being made or are in the process of being made. The tags are a suggestion and courtesy to others who may view the page(s) and no one is required to use them. Remember the pages are still live and many other people may be viewing them at any point in time.

"And that consistency can not be got by everyone doing the initial sub page at the same time." Hence the inuse tag to inform others not to edit while your editing.

I suggest that you pick an area you feel comfortable with and begin working on it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:15 am 
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PhilD wrote:
....
I suggest that you pick an area you feel comfortable with and begin working on it.
OK ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:21 am 
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PhilD wrote:
... If a page is being rewritten then please add the {{underconstruction}} tag to the top of it first (then save) to inform others so they know what is going on with the page.
....

I put the {{underconstruction}} tag on a few pages I was starting and, without any warning, you just started on them. What you put was fine but you could have had the courtesy to say something first. [Mod Note: Removed Bad Language]

In future just get on with things and don't ask for my help. I will stick to helping in the forums and testing the patches and generally helping in the bugsquad.

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Last edited by ooffick on Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mod Note: Removed bad language


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:11 pm 
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:-[
Looks like wiki sees
http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_and_Migrating_Joomla
and
http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_and_Migrating_Joomla/
as different pages.

sorry

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:40 pm 
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I am not at all sure what your referring to?
All I have done in the last few days is create the page http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_and_Migrating_Joomla , do some some really minor edits of Sam Moffatt's page and fix a fat finger tag bracket in the code Chris had posted which the Upgrading and Migrating pace was derived from.
http://docs.joomla.org/Migrating_from_1 ... 1.5_Stable

You can see all my edits I have made in the wiki since the end of January here:
http://docs.joomla.org/Special:Contributions/Phild

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:44 pm 
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Webdongle wrote:
:-[
sorry


Accepted, no problem.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:49 pm 
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Ok. With the help of wendongle, here are some links along with my comments recommendations on each.


http://docs.joomla.org/Migrating_from_1 ... 1.5_Stable Ok as this is the first step to migrate/move from a 1.0 version to a new version. Keep it but rename it to “Upgrading 1.0.x to 1.0.15” and maybe add combine some other info into it (see other comments below). Needs link check

http://docs.joomla.org/Migrating_from_J ... Joomla_2.5 this is incorrect as it is actually goes to Migrating from Joomla 1.5 to Joomla 1.6+ The 1.6 pages should be removed except for one that explains how go go from 1.6.5 to 1.7. 1.5 should patch to 1.5.15 and then Go directly from 1.5.15 to 1.7 then to 2.x.x

http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_from_a ... ng_version ok for existing instructions, except it is not for earlier (1.0/1.5) versions of Joomla and should say so in a more observable way. Should be reviewed to make sure it is up to date, but I think it is.

http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrade_Instructions This is old 1.0 recommend deleting. the http://docs.joomla.org/Migrating_from_1 ... 1.5_Stable takes it’s place

http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_to_1.0.15 Could use reworking to bring more inline with the rest of the upgrade docs. Not a fan of chunks. Combine with http://docs.joomla.org/Migrating_from_1 ... 1.5_Stable (after the rename – see above) Files (patch and full) are still available and delete is my recommendation.

http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_to_1.5_Stable No longer needed Needs deleting. Describes updating from a 1.5 RC to a 1.5 Stable version.

http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_1.5_fr ... 5x_version Probably should be deleted except for the fact that maybe it should be updated to “Upgrading 1.5 from an existing 1.5.15 version. Also should be updated/rewritten

http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_and_Mi ... ersion_1.0 Probably should be kept or combined into or with other general info on updating. Only deals with 1.0.x to 1.0.x updates The migration part should be dropped at very least

http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_1.6.5_to_1.7 Should be kept for those who are still using some 1.6 version. I think it is a requirement to update 1.6 to 1.6.5 before going to later versions of Joomla?

http://docs.joomla.org/Category:Upgradi ... rating_FAQ Some stuff here should be dropped some maybe updated and some redone to reflect the new organization we are doing when we are through.

http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_and_Migrating_FAQs duplicated page – see below -- one should be dropped

These two are the same:
http://docs.joomla.org/Category:Upgradi ... rating_FAQ
http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_and_Migrating_FAQs


http://docs.joomla.org/Help16:Joomla_Version_1_6_4 should just be deleted there is no relevance to anything at this point.
http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_a_Joom ... Joomla_1.6 This is apparently an active work in progress (February 2012) but seriously 1.6? Persons Need to be informed and a title change. This doc is also more of a developer’s howto doc and so does not belong within upgrade migrating Joomla.

http://docs.joomla.org/Database_Errors_ ... g_to_2.5.0 This is already handled much better within http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_from_a ... ng_version and so should be deleted.


In looking at the various pages, I am not a fan of the jump around (well in Badger Camp Randall Stadium it's great) where the page includes links to a number of other pages instead of properly explaining the process. It's confusing and easy to get lost if your new. I think some of these pages should be rewritten if for no other reason than this.

If we use sub-pages as Chris suggested then it is easier to organize some of the information and the main landing page remains clean and uncluttered.

such as (for 1.0):
updating 1.0 to 1.0.15
Migrating from 1.0.15 to 1.5.25
additional info links as desired or needed

(for 1.5)
Updating to 1.5.25
Migrating to 2.5
additional info links as desired or needed

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:00 pm 
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PhilD wrote:
...
In looking at the various pages, I am not a fan of the jump around (well in Badger Camp Randall Stadium it's great) where the page includes links to a number of other pages instead of properly explaining the process. It's confusing and easy to get lost if your new. I think some of these pages should be rewritten if for no other reason than this.

If we use sub-pages as Chris suggested then it is easier to organize some of the information and the main landing page remains clean and uncluttered.

such as (for 1.0):
updating 1.0 to 1.0.15
Migrating from 1.0.15 to 1.5.25
additional info links as desired or needed

(for 1.5)
Updating to 1.5.25
Migrating to 2.5
additional info links as desired or needed

What if

Updating/migrating 1.0.x
Updating/migrating 1.5.x
Updating/migrating 1.6.x
Updating/migrating 1.7.x
Updating/migrating 2.5.x

Updating/migrating 1.0.x
first part would explain uploading the files
second part deal with migration
link at the bottom to Updating/migrating 1.5.x

Updating/migrating 1.5.x
similar

Updating/migrating 1.6.x
Is tricky because if <1.6.5 to upgrade to 1.6.6 requires manual editing of the files (but do we want to encourage that ?)
Upgrading from <1.6.5 is easy because the auto updater handles the database changes if the files are 1.6.5
Backup

Set your Default Template as a standard one.
Uninstall any 3rd party custom Templates.
Use the http://joomlacode.org/gf/download/frsre ... ackage.zip Just unzip and upload to replace the core files.
Use the Joomla auto updater to 'Find updates' then install. Please note this is a two step process because it updates to 1.7.0 first.
Check your site Database tab and Discover http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_from_a ... _Your_Site

If you server restriction prevents you from using the Joomla auto updater then move the site to localhost on your PC and update there. And move back to the server when the update is done.


Updating/migrating 1.7.x
update to 1.7.5 requires manual editing of the files (but do we want to encourage that ?)
Auto updater can upgrade to 2.5.x

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:35 pm 
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Webdongle wrote:
What if

Updating/migrating 1.0.x
Updating/migrating 1.5.x
Updating/migrating 1.6.x
Updating/migrating 1.7.x
Updating/migrating 2.5.x


Basically that is what I am thinking.

Leave the landing page http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_and_Migrating_Joomla alone with all the current text intact so that a person landing there knows easily info about each version. The links in each paragraph should be changed to something like this

Updating and Migrating Joomla 1.0 Versions
Updating and Migrating Joomla 1.5 Versions
Updating Joomla 1.6 Versions
Updating Joomla 1.7 Versions

The landing page would be where links like on http://www.joomla.org/download.html point to. This gives one page that everything official links to for the updating/migrating of Joomla versions. Lock it if desired.

Each link of the landing pages sections goes to a sub-page where the topic is broken down into various sub topics which would be links to some of the existing pages and probably to some new pages. Each sub-page has a link that goes back to the main landing page. say, under a page section named "Recommended next steps" Here we would suggest further work in upgrading their installation and place their landing on the next logical progression.

The linked to or new pages on the sub-pages would lead back to the sub page at their conclusion so that the next linked page may be read if desired. In this fashion proper space can be given to a particular section without making an overly long and boring update/migrate page for the particular topic.

Code:
 Landing page section
                     sub-page
                              topic 1
                              topic 2
                                    subtopic a ( only if absolutely needed)
                                    subtopic b etc.


Placing a bunch of links to other upgrade/migration pages on upgrade/migration pages as a continuation tends to confuse noobs (especially if they suddenly walk into a link forest) and may make additional maintenance headaches down the road. By linking back to where you came from (can be next section (#) in order if desired) it is easy to see where to go next without getting lost and there are less maintenance headaches with link upkeep.

One section to add to the landing page would be a short generic (not version specific) points to consider paragraph "Before Updating/Migrating" to a new version. Same format as above and would only contain generic info such as back up your data, check compatibility/availability of extensions used, useful tools, etc. between existing site and new version. Specific requirements for a version would be handled within the specific update/migrate page(s) This avoids the repetition within each update/migration section of common info.

**Not sure if the sub-pages should be actual /subpages or just regular pages acting as sub pages.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:05 am 
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PhilD wrote:
The landing page would be where links like on http://www.joomla.org/download.html point to. This gives one page that everything official links to for the updating/migrating of Joomla versions. Lock it if desired.
Surely it needs to be locked ? Because if it's not then people will be adding links 'left, right and centre'. And that would break the structure and add to confusion. Yes the edits can be undone but why create extra work. Besides which, surely the generic advice should be official ?

Quote:
By linking back to where you came from (can be next section (#) in order if desired) it is easy to see where to go next without getting lost and there are less maintenance headaches with link upkeep.

Perhaps a menu like on http://docs.joomla.org/Developing_a_Mod ... his_Series ?
If it was a 'chunk' then only the 'chunk' would need to be edited when a new page was added (3.0)

The 'chunk' could also be on the landing page.

Also a 'chunk' could be made for:
  • Uploading files to overwrite the core files because it's the same method for 1.0.x, 1.5.x and most of 1.6.x
    (the specific download would be put on the page not the in the 'chunk')
  • Using the auto updater, because that is basically the same from 1.6. upwards.
    (slight differences can be mentioned so that whatever page it was on could relate to it)
Using 'chunk's would help keep the pages consistent and save a lot of extra(unnecessary work would it not ?)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:33 am 
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Perhaps a menu like on http://docs.joomla.org/Developing_a_Mod ... his_Series ?

yes that would be fine to continue or go back.

Rather not call things chunks as chunks are to many a bit of info that was orphaned or does not fit/belong.

Better to treat the info as a section on the appropriate page. as in when 3.x.x comes out it is added as a section to the main landing page (congratulations your on the latest version), a paragraph added where 2.5 is now with the decided structure on. updating/migrating from 2 to 3.
BTW the current 2.5 section would get structure on updating when updates are available (now).

Before anyone points out, yes there will be some duplication of info as starting at 1.6.5 (I think) you can use many of the same methods for updating. In order to keep new persons from becoming confused or lost when following an upgrade page it may need to be that way.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:49 am 
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PhilD wrote:
....
Rather not call things chunks as chunks are to many a bit of info that was orphaned or does not fit/belong.

Better to treat the info as a section on the appropriate page....

call it a Template then and {{transclude}} it in the pages. Because if you add the sections to a page then you have to edit every page in the series.

But by having one page with the menu then you only need to edit the one page ... then all the pages that include that page are auto updated. This brings structure and consistency as well as preventing the disorganisation (that this revamp is surely all about) from happening again.

There are other bits of information that could be transcluded into the pages
  • Uploading files to overwrite the core files because it's the same method for 1.0.x, 1.5.x and most of 1.6.x
    (the specific download would be put on the page not the in the 'chunk')
  • Using the auto updater, because that is basically the same from 1.6. upwards.
    (slight differences can be mentioned so that whatever page it was on could relate to it)
The majority of the updating is generic with only a small amount that is specific. By using 'chunk's (templates, or whatever you want to call them)... there is a base for new pages. And only a small amount of editing of the pages will be required.

I still maintain that if that approach is not adopted then all that will happen is that the disorganisation will be swept from one corner to another.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:52 am 
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Do you want to put together at least a skeleton of some sort starting from the http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_and_Migrating_Joomla page?

I have apparently run out of time. If I can't solve the issue I;m working on (at work) over the phone, I may have to go in tonight.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:04 am 
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PhilD wrote:
Do you want to put together at least a skeleton of some sort starting from the http://docs.joomla.org/Upgrading_and_Migrating_Joomla page?....

Not until we can agree about 'chunk's(Templates or whatever you want to call them).

My method would be to create the blank pages, then create the chunks. Then transclude the chunks into the pages.

As my approach is different to yours then there would be no point in me starting something that could be changed because it is not the desired method. Added to that I can not lock the landing page and if you locked it then I could not edit it.

Also it will take me a long time to assimilate the info so that I could make it generic enough for a chunk. You will be back before I have the 'skeleton' planned fully.

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