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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:22 pm 
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OK, this might be still work in progress, but:
- Human readable URLs are not working with cyrilic. I changed the menu link "FAQ" to the Bulgarian "Въпроси" and the url generated was changed from:
http://localhost/last/faq
to
http://localhost/last

Modules (Latest News, Popular) also doesn't work and all links goes to:
http://localhost/last/home

I am currently using the latest Nighty Build.


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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:27 pm 
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Thanks, that indeed still an issue. I see what can be done about it.

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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:28 pm 
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Confirmed and get front-end error
Warning: strpos() [function.strpos]: Empty delimiter. in /Library/WebServer/Documents/joomla11new/libraries/joomla/application/router.php on line 309

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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:36 pm 
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I modify this last comment: as router.php has been updated to get the .html suffix, we do not get the warning anymore but a forbidden
Quote:
Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /joomla11new/.html on this server.

which is logical.

EDIT: except when clicking home on the home page
Quote:
Warning: strpos() [function.strpos]: Empty delimiter. in /Library/WebServer/Documents/joomla11new/libraries/joomla/application/router.php on line 313

different line than before

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Last edited by infograf768 on Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:38 pm 
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Correct.

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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:11 am 
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In Official working group blog http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... ,33/p,286/ you can see sundry examples of new URLs (I don't care about mod_rewrite support in this post), as follows:

.../index.php/web-links/2_joomla-specific-links/1_joomla
.../index.php/faq/31_general/33_what-is-uncategorised-content
.../index.php/news-feeds/4_joomla/1_joomla-official-news

Moreover I see the progress about avoiding reserved characters used, as stated by kenmcd:

kenmcd wrote:
...
Reserved Characters
gen-delims  =  : / ? # [ ] @
sub-delims  =  ! $ & ' ( ) * + , ; =
...
But they are odd to see in a human readable URL as they mean other things in text.
...
An unreserved character such as the dash (-) would be far safer to use.
...


What I'd like to write down is that I have a doubt about using _ and - in the same line for these reasons:

1- reading and writing a URL can generate mistakes by humans
2- for eye disability people it's a bit difficult to see correctly this URL
3- for aesthetical reasons

So I'd like to share with all of you my opinion for this particular, not important at all, but in this case I think... why not? I'd like to see an accessible URL if possible... so my idea is to use only the dash (-) as it is more readable and usable and logical (in the same line) to use.

Well, I see a URL from

.../index.php/web-links/2_joomla-specific-links/1_joomla

to

.../index.php/web-links/2-joomla-specific-links/1-joomla

We know that the initial numbers are always ID and the URL is very "fashion". And if you use mod_rewrite support:

.../component/2-category/1-title

Aren’t they more beautiful than before ?

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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:44 am 
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SEs see "2_joomla" as one word (one very unusual non-existent word).
SEs see "2-joomla" as 2 words.
This is why the dash is the default separator in OpenSEF.

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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:55 am 
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kenmcd wrote:

SEs see "2_joomla" as one word (one very unusual non-existent word).
SEs see "2-joomla" as 2 words.
This is why the dash is the default separator in OpenSEF.



So there is not alternative, we have to see _ and - together... but in your opinion is this the best character to be used? My only doubt is about an "accessible" URL (I don't know how to explain better my issue :( )

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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:01 pm 
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newart, I believe you misunderstood Ken: he's saying '2-joomla' is better!

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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:16 pm 
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kenmcd wrote:

SEs see "2_joomla" as one word (one very unusual non-existent word).
SEs see "2-joomla" as 2 words.
This is why the dash is the default separator in OpenSEF.



True - in this post, Matt Cutts from Google explains the reasoning behind dashes being better:

http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/dashes-vs-underscores/

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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:43 pm 
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Thanks a lot! I've fully misunderstood the post... I don't know why (my terrible daily headache ?  :)  ) and I liked very much the interview in the link posted, very informative. So if I've well understood we have to wait for Johan and his reply to that :)

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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:06 pm 
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kenmcd wrote:
SEs see "2_joomla" as one word (one very unusual non-existent word).
SEs see "2-joomla" as 2 words.
This is why the dash is the default separator in OpenSEF.


What I mean is that if you are targeting keywords the dash is better.
Having effectively non-existent words in the URL are of no help.
And may actually mask your desired keywords.

Regarding human readability the underscore again loses.
People read by looking at the top of the characters.
Putting the underscore amid the dashes breaks this top-of-the-characters eye scan.

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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:48 am 
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This may have been noted somewhere already, but just to make sure: at least in finnish language it's more
preferable to use 'a' in the place of 'ä', instead of 'ae'. The current method looks quite annoying and makes'
it hard to explain the URL to another person.


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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:04 am 
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interesting your issue, I think it's like in Norway for the Ø

I think the method is general and useful for everybody but if you know sundry limits in your mother tongue, well, you can find a simpler solution as you've written.

The problem I see is only about to have a widespread dash in a good formatted URL

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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:27 pm 
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Quote:
Regarding human readability the underscore again loses


I would also point out (agreeing with Ken), if you have an unstyled link, you cannot even see the underscore because the link is underlined!

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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:33 pm 
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Good point. hadnt thought about that


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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:35 pm 
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compass wrote:
Quote:
Regarding human readability the underscore again loses


I would also point out (agreeing with Ken), if you have an unstyled link, you cannot even see the underscore because the link is underlined!


Great! You've find a very intelligent issue for wipping underscore out! Great compass! With this last note I hope this "problem" can be solved.

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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:06 pm 
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:P

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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:16 pm 
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Jinx wrote:
Thanks, that indeed still an issue. I see what can be done about it.

Are iso-8859-9 (windows-1254) non-Latin Turkish characters in consideration?
Thank you.


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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:42 pm 
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Hi Johan (and others of course),

JRoute always returns & instead of & in Routes/URLS. This is necessary for writing the URLs correctly inside XHTML, but for a redirect it should be just &, also inside Javascript it is needed to provide routes without & but with &. Did you already consider this?

A possible solution I think it would be to add an extra boolean parameter in JRoute::_() where you can switch on/off the & replacement. An idea?

Anyway... Good work so far Johan!

Regards, Mark


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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:55 am 
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@Ken, Newart, Compass, Alledia,


Hehe, I kinda had a feeling this reaction would be coming. I wonder if you guys actually took the time to read my latests replies in this thread and/or had a look at the SVN.  8) I already hinted in my blog post that the truth is in the SVN and I quote myself :

Quote:
I have implemented a very basic segment encoder/decoder that is capable of rewriting the slugs. A default implementation is in place that uses a '_' to seperate the id from the name. In the future we could expose this into the configuration if the need exists to give the administrator more control over the formatting of the URL segments. ... The segment encoder/decoder could be used to remove the text information from a segment and only keep the integer, for the moment this behavior is not yet implement. If somebody want's to have a go at it be my guest.


Now if you would have taken the time to look at the actual code or had tried to understand my post you would probably have noticed that the whole segment encoding/decoding mechanism is fully extendable and that I just implemented a very basic solution that using a str_replace call due to a lack of time (had a flight to cacht to Asia ;) ). If you want to change this you can easily implement a more intelligent regular expression to replace the '_' with a '-' or even make it a configurable setting of JRouter. It's only two lines of code that needs to be changed. ;)

These reactions exactly demonstrate the kind of behavior I don't want on this forum. If you not willing or capable to offer solutions don't bother posting here. We (the development working group) don't need the SEO lectures, we have had those, the forum is full of them. We need solutions. I took the URL routing to 99% of a complete solution, maybe you guys should consider throwing in the last 1% yourself. Submitting a patch maybe ?  :pop


@Markuz : Makes sense, what about moving the amp replacing to JRoute and adding a function parameter to turn it off and on ?

@Sural98 : I still need to have a look at the UTF-8 issues with the slug alias creation. I hope to be able to get to that in the coming days.

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Last edited by Jinx on Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:26 am 
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sadly the forge has been almost completely unaccesible for weeks no so checking out the SVN has been almost impossibe


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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:57 am 
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I have to repeat Brian's words...

brian wrote:

sadly the forge has been almost completely unaccesible for weeks no so checking out the SVN has been almost impossibe



moreover my post was ONLY for a very basic URL (as written by you in the blog) with ONLY this issue, for a more perfect basic URL. Johan, I beg your pardon but I think there is no guilty by us  :(

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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:35 pm 
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Instead of being defensive, just hear what is being said. Johan wants us to take our good ideas, open the code, see if we can figure out how to implement the solutions we prefer, and then post our suggestions with the working code solutions.

That is helpful. And, that is what the Developers forum is for -- to promote and encourage hackers in our community. Saying a problem is "solved" before the code is laid was probably a little bit frustrating to the one who knows what it takes to code it, especially considering he already documented this and asked for our help. 

As with anything in life, there is an endless list of ways we can improve or perfect something. It's easy to discuss those ideas and amass an enormous "to do list" in short order. Imagine how frustrating it would be to be the one everyone expected to actually do it

So, seems to me the first step is for us to read the dev posts more closely and start looking at the code. That will help us grow as a community.

Brian -  :P

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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:31 pm 
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Jinx wrote:
@Markuz : Makes sense, what about moving the amp replacing to JRoute and adding a function parameter to turn it off and on ?


Sounds very good Jinx!

By the way... Did you already have a look at my other question / issue that I posted in this thread on 3 March? It is about the ignoring behaviour of the default Itemid. Thanks in advance.

So long for now,
Mark


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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:14 pm 
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I confirm that SVN is almost impossible to access. And has been for a while.
Not being able to get the code, it's a bit hard to take a look...

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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:16 pm 
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yes...  but remember that the devs have to use the same SVN...  it isn't fun for them either!

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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:33 am 
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Quote:
yes...  but remember that the devs have to use the same SVN...  it isn't fun for them either!

Well, we presume the core devs have the same problem. The devs have been doing commits right up until the 7th, that's when I lost svn as well. I'm lucky compared to some people who lost svn weeks ago.

Quote:
it isn't fun for them either!

I'll agree with you there bud....not a good time for a hold up, right before the next beta release....no svn, no
work or play.


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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:16 am 
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Can we please keep this thread on topic ? Thanks !

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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:49 am 
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Jinx wrote:
@Ken, Newart, Compass, Alledia,


Hehe, I kinda had a feeling this reaction would be coming. I wonder if you guys actually took the time to read my latests replies in this thread and/or had a look at the SVN.  8) I already hinted in my blog post that the truth is in the SVN and I quote myself :

Quote:
I have implemented a very basic segment encoder/decoder that is capable of rewriting the slugs. A default implementation is in place that uses a '_' to seperate the id from the name. In the future we could expose this into the configuration if the need exists to give the administrator more control over the formatting of the URL segments. ... The segment encoder/decoder could be used to remove the text information from a segment and only keep the integer, for the moment this behavior is not yet implement. If somebody want's to have a go at it be my guest.


Now if you would have taken the time to look at the actual code or had tried to understand my post you would probably have noticed that the whole segment encoding/decoding mechanism is fully extendable and that I just implemented a very basic solution that using a str_replace call due to a lack of time (had a flight to cacht to Asia ;) ). If you want to change this you can easily implement a more intelligent regular expression to replace the '_' with a '-' or even make it a configurable setting of JRouter. It's only two lines of code that needs to be changed. ;)

These reactions exactly demonstrate the kind of behavior I don't want on this forum. If you not willing or capable to offer solutions don't bother posting here. We (the development working group) don't need the SEO lectures, we have had those, the forum is full of them. We need solutions. I took the URL routing to 99% of a complete solution, maybe you guys should consider throwing in the last 1% yourself. Submitting a patch maybe ?  :pop



Geez.
This was not some big attack on the code.
I have read the entire thread and all the Dev site posts.
The only reason I posted in this thread is I assumed there was finally some movement on embracing and implementing some real SEO concepts in Joomla core URLs and thought I may actually have something to contribute.
My strategy thus far has been to simply point-out some issues (like using a reserved character).
Some SEO experts are here trying to gingerly inject some common SEO knowledge into the J 1.5 implementation.
If you are going to do it, you may actually want to try to do it right.
Embracing some other peoples' knowledge may actually be beneficial.
Really.

I tested the SVN code a few days ago - it is broken.
The pathway links are broken.
Tried Apache mod_rewrite on and off.
I assumed that this is a work-in-progress and hoped that various short-comings will be addressed as the work progresses.
Reasonable assumption?
No need to post the problems here as this is a work-in-progress.
In an earlier post it was alluded to that the "slug" may become a configuration item.
That would definitely be a plus as the majority of SEO-knowledgeable users would immediately change from the : or _ to a -.

99% of Joomla users are not going to read or edit the code to fix this issue.
That option is not reasonable.
Yes, SEO knowledgeable users will invariably create a hopefully well known hack to fix the new URL SEO issues.
This could be avoided by not being defensive and actually listening to what many SEO knowledgeable Joomla users have been saying for months (years?) and actually implementing it right the first time.

Obviously trying to be tactful is not working.
How about this . . .
The : is a bad idea.
The _ is a bad idea.
The - is the best option for a default separator.
Is that clear enough?

SOS.

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