Joomla! Discussion Forums

This is my first post in a long while; I've been mostly monitoring progress up to this point while implementing Joomla! in an intranet environment. First I want to say that I've learned more in this one thread, than in weeks (if not months) of the more traditional communication means. This isn't a criticism. A byproduct of some of the painful discussion here seems to be a window into the true state of things. On balance, this is a good thing but it does demand that we accept some of the emotion being expressed and put it into its proper place. It isn't unreasonable for information to come out in chats or forum threads because this is where it is formulated. Some have expressed concern about the roadmap and main site announcements. Anyone serious about Joomla! and experienced with open source projects knows that you have to dig sometimes and even then, decisions are subject to review and change. So, I'm not concerned about version numbers and date slipage. It's par for the course.

In my mind, open source projects are not places where anyone (regardless of the amount of contribution) should feel free to vent their frustration. Strictly speaking, the term open source applies to the code (when released) and the project part can vary greatly in terms of the roles of the core team and community at large. Joomla! has a very open community and this has its benefits as well as its dangers. But, as I say earlier, if one is willing to overlook (perhaps not the right word) the emotion, there is much to be learned. In any community, every member has a responsibility to be civil and constructive. Both. Always. Differences of opinion will happen - this is required in moving forward and building consensus. The more respectful and constructive the discourse, the more positive the result.

Venting one's frustration probably feels good but it is corrosive to the community at large. In my mind it is nothing more than self-indulgent trolling, particularly when suggestions for improvement are not provided. Sure, it can kick loose some good information but at what cost? Maintaining a formal communications channel is usually outside the core competencies of the development team so perhaps someone close to the developers but not one (if there are such people) should step up a bit. Alternatively, perhaps the core team work processes should be made more transparent to the community - though I see plenty of action on the forums, in the dev blog and on IRC. This is a double-edged sword since we don't want to bog the Dev's down in communication when they're best used on the code. We should all keep in mind that it is natural for things to get quiet before a release - it is a busy time where effort is better spent on testing and bug fixing. However, the criticism that significant decisions about the content and timeline for releases could be communicated more quickly and clearly is probably one that should be considered (again).

Internationalization isn't as big an issue for me as some of the other major initiatives for Joomla! But I'm perfectly willing participate and wait for these features coming further down the pipeline. Investment in code refactoring is valuable only in support of future goals (faster development with less defects for instance) but without vision it can be indulgent as well. I sense that the Dev's are making rational and reasonable choices so I'm comfortable with the up-front costs here - I can also understand where others might not be. For those who have more at stake (i.e., financial dependence on Joomla!) - how can I say this politely - perhaps a better risk assessment considering the realities of free and open source software would be in order (ouch).

I use other open source solutions where they fit better and I will continue to use Joomla! where it fits best. My hats off to all in the Joomla! community, particularly those who contribute. As in life, not everyone can be the hero but everyone should at least be kind and considerate. Passion yes, but keep in mind the responsibilities of being a part of this community.

'nuff preaching. I hope I haven't offended - particularly Joe (I always enjoy your points and passion). I can't wait for the imminent release of Joomla! v9.2 

Good point.  The spirit that drives everyone cant be extinguished.  

@Andy Thanks, can u PM me in private to discuss this.

@Joe : I give up, I really don't have the time for this, lost 4 days of coding just on this thread alone. If u would look around u would know what these people are doing, but if u are blind to see it, so be it. 

egads - i took a phone call .

joe - u still here?

Well what is Joomla? Quite Frankly it's code! How can a coding project not be about the code...

I will apologize to you for my inflamatory remarks It was late and lack of sleep led to lack of decourum....

As to why am I here?
Well because I use the product...Not just for myself but it also makes my life 1500 times easier when someone else asks me to do a website for them...By using Joomla I know I will have a ready built site and all I need to do is create a template, set sections and cats and install a few components or modules so I can had it off to the client...I even have a ready made DB and install I keep that has all the standard add ons I use in just about every site to save me a ton of time...

What I want from Joomla (and the Devs) is a reliably coded package not something to look for each month like it's my favorite TV show...

As for organization I don't see any problems with how it's currently organiozed. Mambo is supposedly well organized and they have made 4 rerleases in the same time Joomla has had 8 going on 9....

there is only one schedule a coding project can follow...Release it when it's DONE not because some date on a calendar came up!



Well Skip IMO what version it is is moot...It will run just as well if it's named 1.5 as it will if named 1.1....
second you should really try reading the developers blogs on the developer site...that is where you find most of the information as to where Joomla is going and what will be in future releases...


Shawn Nice try but conmsidering the Mambo PR has said nothing about what the code does or how it will affect users and simply keeps rehashing the Split when it promotes Mambo in a "Whats the difference bet Mambo and Joomla thread I wouldn't keep trying Haz's old "Joomla PR sucks and is hurting the project" The only reason they are doing that is because of conversations I had with the Mambo team over Rico slime campaign!

There is a PR team here and it is quite good...The problem is that it is not up to the PR to tell folks what MIGHT be in the next release...That is left to the developers. when the release does come out there will be plenty done by the PR dept to showcase and explain the new features in that release...

As to the rest of the folks out there...
there is a quite a few ways to have your say on how the project should work and what you want to see in it...
There is the Wishlist and Suggestions section...
There is the feature request section on the developers forge...

It's awfully unfair to say your not being informed about what is happening on the developer front and what features are being worked on for the next release... I am not a core dev and I know what is in the next release and if I have any questions I simply ASK and I have always gotten an answer....

The roadmap is a good place to start and will give you a general idea of what they are putting into a release but the dates listed are pure ESTIMATES not DEADLINES to be met...
I would rather they miss a deadline and get it right than meet a deadline with only a half working code!

The only update that should be a timely issue are security patches!
And those have been very quick indeed here...

Bottom line though this is open source and that means someone is VOLUNTEERING their time to give you something for free!
If your starving and someone hands you a piece of bread don't throw it in their face and complain that you didn't get a steak or butter to go with your bread!

If you feel the project is falling behind then I suggest you volunteer your time to help them meet the deadlines you insist they keep!

But it is in bad taste to complain to someone who is giving you something as good as Joomla for free....
Bringing up topics for improvements I'm sure are always welcome as they have been welcomed whenever I have made suggestions to the core team...

But to make an issue of a version number or a date in a roadmap is petty and doesn't improve how Joola wors in the leaset...
IT's just petty if you ask me...it is not constructive criticism!

darling - you are wasting your breathe. after they got a piece of jinx, again. they left. and i know you didn't write that for me. it's been a long week hasn't it? thanks for hanging out with me! good bye for now. amy

Joe maybe you should not looking everytime only on changelogs, maybe see also the work beside the new Version which should support the Version and should make life easier for User and 3rd Party Developer:

Translation coordination,
Documentation of the new API ( have a look at the wiki is growing every day ) ,
UML Graphics in progress,
making examples for 3PD's on the wiki to help them to get used to the new API and how to use,
and lot more which is not visible in the changelogs

So the World of the Joomla Team is not reduce to a changelog, open your view to the work beside coding which is also a lot work and on dev.joomla.org is a lot infos available which could answer your question if you have looked into them.

And as Louis stated some have a life beside it, some are sick, some new to write their test for the University.

Just my 2 cents

P.S:  2. Why am I doing this?

I love to work for the Joomla community trying to help moving the project to a higher level and hope some people also move with us to a higher level.

Asphyx,
Certainly not my intention to bring up Mambo here    The PR team was just a suggestion...thats all.

LOL Amy thats all this boob er I mean Noob is good for...Keeping people company!

I know Shawn but Haz has said the same thing...On Rico's request...
you have some brains so don't parrot an idiot!

this isn't about PR it is about Deadlines and the fact that some people think it's more important to meet a schedule than it is to get it right!

I said that earlier... but no-one seems to be biting.
Or perhaps they are, and aren't communicating the creation of the PR team too well. (had better add   ;)  )

Whatever. That video clip was quite amusing!

Edit: read Asphyx's post properly. I think we can safely agree that what I think of as PR and most other people here might think of it as are two different things... but the PR team should be writing 'week in review'. That's why we have PR people (well, we do where I work).

Gary

guys -

Biting is the wrong word. i am working on the problem right now.

we are going to turn this around.

I know you guys care. and that is much appreciated.

i have talked to jinx and i have talked to louis and i will talk to the others, as well. we will turn this into a POSITIVE, i promise you.

I PROMISE YOU!

but, we are not going to play it anymore in the forums..

if you want to really give it some thought and add your voice -- do some offline thinking and planning and writing and let me know when you have something to share.

that goes for everyone. offline. think. plan. write. let me know if you want to add your voice.

THANKS FOR YOUR SUPPORT. THANKS DEVELOPERS!!!!!!!!

I think there are a lot of misunderstandings in this thread.
Your focus is on code, ours is on the lack of communication regarding key points on this project. One of those is the recent version change. Joomla core team is made of 24 people. 24 coders? 24 people coding? Of course not, so where's the guy who will be the interface between the coders and the rest of the community? Should it necessarly be a coder?

@masterchief: where are you ? why do you let the developpers loose their time and energy in this kind of discussion?

Remember, Joe and I don't speak for ourselves as *frustraded* J end users. We speak in the name of our J french community. Most of them don't event know this site exist. We are their main source of information, and where do we pick up the information? Right here, browsing this forums and the dev site daily and some day, by chance, we will find a chat log... you know the rest of the story.

Come on it is just as simple as contacting the main international portal admins, setting up a mailing list, and we're done! What's the big deal? No time for this? We can do it!
Who told you this had to be *official*? It's just a kind of partnership... You "push" critical information when needed and that's it.

We do appreciate you time and dedication, you are the heart and soul of Joomla, no doubts about this. But please consider that we (portal admins) are also part of the body. Again, we're not coders but we are your first supporters.

Sure not, and the workd of J is not reduced to the english speaking community and to this forum/sites.

Here is a bunch of 
Tomorrow is another day...

The truth of the matter is, that no matter how much "communication" is done, there are going to be some that think it still isn't enough.  There is an huge amount of communication going on.  And with that, there are those saying that it is too much communication.  There is no way to win in this situation.

Can we all just not agree that everyone just needs to do their best and leave it at that? This thread has almost been enough to make me want to throw up my hands and walk away.  I can't even fathom what this sort of bashing over and over again is doing to those who are doing the tough work.

Move on.  Heard over and over again.  Stop flogging the dead horse.  If I could lock this thread I would because there really and truly is not one more thing left to say that hasn't been said. 

hornos - did you get my PM?

Hornos - I have PM'ed you and several others who have participated all week. You have been invited to be a voice that works on this solution. We are going to try to engage in some discussions together about these issues you want to talk about . But, we are going to try to do it offline and without callling people in. PLEASE ACCEPT MY INVITATION TO BE A PART OF THAT PROCESS. WE NEED YOUR VOICE.

I picked up the following today in a comment by defenestrati at http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/002505.html.



I might offer the possibility of appointing a public relations person and/or a manager to make sure the flogging happens on a regular schedule.

Actually, I have been marveling at the high quality level of communication in this J!-community, and, in particular, recent innovations and experiments with the developer's blog, the extensions blog, and irc chat. I love the vitality of this community and the possibility it has afforded me to learn quite a bit.  Thanks.

I'm a relatively new comer to Joomla!.  In reality, I do not even use Joomla! yet.  I actually tested Mambo 4.x for my needs a couple of years ago and found it lacking.  I revisited again when Joomla! 1.0 was announced. I tested Joomla! 1.0 and found that the feature set, current limitations and bugs were not worth the effort for me to migrate my website.  However, I still kept my eye on Joomla!.  I would visit the Official Joomla! home page for news every few months to see what was going on.  Then one day, lo' and behold, the 1.1 roadmap was published and there was an Alpha available to boot.

So the new communications strategy has had an impact.  The roadmap and feature set that Joomla! 1.1 had laid out for the project aligned with my needs and goals.  So I've begun the process of testing tweaks to the core components and modules.  I've begun writing modules and plugins that I will need to successfully migrate my web site.  I've spent about 60 hours to date testing and developing code for Joomla! 1.1.  Just look in the Quality/Test and Developer Sub-forums to see my feedback. 

I've committed my time to Joomla! in the faith that the project will adhere to most of the published goals in the roadmap.  So far this is the case and I do not expect otherwise.  If these goals cannot be met I would expect some sort of communication would take place, i.e., feature xyz cannot be implemented at this time and will be pushed to next release.  I would expect an event like this to be communicated as soon as humanly possible.  Users have to plan too.

A weekly development update based on the SVN commit log.  The process of merely creating such a report forces one to look at the feature set and see what is falling behind or moving ahead, i.e., it forces project management.

As far as the revision bump.  It makes sense.  Joomla! 1.5 is a totally different beast than 1.0.X.  However, during the recent IRC chat this was communicated with an official announcement to follow.  There has been no official announcement that I know of, so I can see how people could get upset or be offended.  It appears that some people have invested a great deal of time and effort into Joomla! other than core programmers that have contributed to the success of this project. My point is, don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Keep up the great work and I'm looking forward to migrating my website to Joomla! 1.5.

Byte

They are great, aren't they? The IRC chat was nice. The extensions site -- I can't even keep up. I am going to have to schedule a whole week just to look at all of the pages! And the Developer's blog.

EACH of these are new -- I don't know how they do it all.

It will be encouraging to the core team to see that this is recognized. And it's only been around 6 months!!!

Chay - You'll have to forgive our sensitivity. It's been a hell of a week in this blog. Thanks for raising the spirits. We need to encourage one another. MUCH appreciated!

I had a hard time getting rid of any of your quote. It was excellent. It was reasonable. You make valid points. You kept perspective. You still have hope.

I am totally outside looking in on the Joomla! group. It's been around 6 months since they packed up camp and moved this virtual community. Check the post above for the new AMAZING features they have put out there. If we can leave Jinx and co. to their jobs -- we will have 1.5, an AMAZING advancement.

There are lots and lots and lots of loose ends that Joomla! needs to clean up. I will be honest with you -- come on -- get out there and update the official announcements. PLEASE.  They are really busy.  But, come on! I will keep pushing that myself. Part of the reason Jinx and co. are getting their butts kicked is because the announcement is not there. And I cannot think of any good reason that this has to be. I am sorry. I just can't.


Bless you for keeping the faith. Give this organization of free, overworked, NOT paid amazing, FREAKING INTELLIGENT people another six  months. The curtains will be up. There will be bushes in the yard. The boxes will be unpacked and thrown away. Hang in there. I know I am going to, also!

Gary there most certainly is a week in review...You folks have to stop bitching about something not being there that is if only you took the time to find it!

Here is the link you obviously have been missing!
http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... Itemid,51/

Now to have a PR Dept who doesn't know a damn thing about coding comment each week on what was done that week is justy ludicrous!
How can you expect a media person to understand why or explain how the 1500 new lines of code was done why it was done and how it's going to affact you?
Do you want the developers to take hours away from coding so they can be interviewed by the PR team or isn't the Developers Blog which tells you much more and does it much better is already there?

Anyone who claims they don't know what is going on with Joomla obviously just comes to the forum and skips the site altogether...

I am not part of the core and I know exactly what they are doing because instead of spending all my time here complaining about the fact I didn't find the link that had everything I was looking for I was looking for the link that told me anything and everything I needed to know about what has recently happened to the project and where it is going!

No it didn't note a possible change of version numbers...
But I ask anyone who thinks that is a problem this one question...

What preperation do you need to make to install 1.5 that you didn't need to make to install the same thing under the title of 1.1?

Asphyx.

While I was not watching, you were a very, very naughty boy. You know you were not supposed to be doing this any more today!

Now, I want you to redo your post. In fact, why did you even write a post on that topic to that person? this is not how we were going to solve this problem, remember? if you don't stop, i will be forced to contact your isp and tell them that you have a two day forum time out and ask that they unplug your cable. (obviously i am kidding ... or am i?)

the one piece of VALUABLE information you could have offered was the link. you also could have recognized that Gary obviously has skill in PR work. that would have shown gary you are willing to value him and accept him and it would not have cost you a dime, my dear.

your options:

you could redo it by removing all of the words and inserting the lyrics for a lovely show tune about spring.

you could redo it by removing what you have and using "X"'s to make computer art. that stuff is HOT!

you could redo it by doing practicing timed typings (example follows):

now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their countries.
now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their countries.
now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their countries.

+++++++++++

Gary - if you would be so kind as to not respond to this post if you see it before the computer art has been generated, i would very much appreciate it. thank you kindly for consideration of my request.

+++++++++++

Okay, let's cut the crap.
Someone make a decision, make an announcement about it, update that roadmap, and then we can move on. Any other discussion is apparently a waste of time, everything has been said, no need to go on.
Off to work. (9 AM in Paris, amy )

sir - kind sir - did you get my pm? i have been working really hard. please stay out of the forum!

although your post is fine: brief, concise, to the point, accurate.

One last post, which explains this whole thing!

by joelonsoftware.com, "The Iceberg Sercret, Revealed" (note the title.. )

I suggest both coders and non coders read this article. My last post in this thread, promise!

these are nice posts that make me think and i do not oppose them at all. thanks for sharing. good night for me! enjoy your day in france (paris?)

The secret is that People Who Aren't Programmers Do Not Understand This.
gosh that is so true. and frustrating for a developer. and maddening.

Amy! Are you trying to get me into trouble with ze germans?

lol - sorry - he distributed it to 11 of his friends, too!

i have so much to learn - i am landlocked here in the middle of the us in a rural state called nebraska. INTERNATIONAL - think - a new Joomla friend was trying to coach me a bit yesterday - i asked if i should get a book - he said LOTS of books!

sorry about the war i caused between your countries. oops.

Again - and to keep up the good mood - I'll stop tossing [censored] at ze germans (and focus on the americans instead!)

What you wrote above Amy, got me thinking. I have a few (Norwegian) friends that have studied in the US and the funny thing is: All of them got top scores in English compared to their american classmates. Now ain't that funny? Rest assured though: I am not one of them.

In that context I just remembered a quote from John Cleese about "there is no such thing as US English". I found it through Google, and I recommend reading the rest of this text too, as it is even funnier than the filmclip with ze german coastguard

http://www.stephaniemiller.com/declarat ... cation.htm