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I think they are some things I need to say. I will give my best to let all emotions out of this.

It is ok to make an offer and Mike made us an offer about what he'll do for the JWC, there was also a price tag included, but that is not so much important. We don't have a need for what he offered and told that. I think up to that point this is a normal procedure. We get and we make offers sometime it works sometimes not. Mike position and I think James has something simular in mind is (correct me if I am wrong):

He (they) volunteered (and sponsored) for an event called JDayWest 2010, therefore he/they have the right to be on the team for any Joomla event in the same area or location and deserve the right to be involved in they way he/they think it is appropriate because of this work he/they have done.

I don't think that is a valid position. We are volunteers. This mean we volunteer and do not expect any rewards, only to do good for Joomla!. Being a volunteer does not give us exclusive rights for whatever in the future.

As I was in San Francisco and met Mike and James I told both how I see the involvement so my position can't be a big surprise. Furthermore I think that involving the local community to welcome the attendees is a great chance to show how friendly and nice the people within this area are. There is nothing bad and that is also a job local people can do very good because they know the area. Maybe that is nothing you (Mike and James) like to do, ok I can accept that. But I would be happy to get ideas from you what can we do in this area, it is not limited to a "Welcome" or "PreEventParty".

Some words about how it is organized and why this way. Firstly I am responsible for this event so I think I have the right to organise it in the way I think it has the best chance to be successful. We have a small team of people and anyone has an area he is working on. I have a lot of trust in that team and in any of the members, because I know them sometimes for years. We don't communicate so much we all know what we have to do and we work on that. This type of organization works very well when everyone is doing his job. I did it in the same way for the last three JAB and it worked very good. I think one of the key points is to give people freedom and trust, we don't need job titles we need passion and enthusiasm.

Finally the list of the team members because Hils ask:

Robert Deutz [lead], TJ Baker [Social Media], Martijn Boomsma [Sponsoring], Ronni K.G. Christiansen [Website], Kyle Ledbetter [Design], Jon Neubauer [Communication], Brian Teeman [Program/Speakers], Jeremy Wilken [Video Documentation]

I hope I could put some light into this.

_________________
Best Regards, Robert
My Blog: http://www.robert-deutz.de - follow me on twitter @rdeutz
Professional Services for Joomla! http://rdbs.de - follow on twitter @rdbsnews

Robert,

You make many assumptions here about my position on this and our desire for our JUG to be involved. It would only seem common sense to work together.

What I know thus far is that the planning has been done privately and there is little info culled on why it was organized this way or how this event will be managed. I think we all can be involved, not just the welcoming committee. Transparency in this process can be learning for anyone in this community. The communication in this thread tells me everything I need to know.

Everyone should know you wrote the JDay Charter, and it seems there is some bias here as you seem to need the power to make decisions. I have no need to be anything but be a supporter and volunteer, while representing the SF JUG.

Since I believe you do not understand, and seem to have no desire to do so, I am going to move on from this and let it be.

I have talked with Paul about this today. Unfortunately I report that no movement has been made and we are left out of this process.

We will go on to support our local JUG located in the tech universe of San Francisco. We love Joomla and will do our part no matter the outside influences elsewhere in the world.

I wish everyone involved in the Joomla World Conference the best in all that you do for this event. The SF Joomla community hopes to meet you all sometime in the future!

Sincerely,

_________________
James Westley Foreman
J Foreman Group
{ ... design.develop.engage ... }
http://www.jamesforeman.biz

Robert,

Your use of "price tag" is probably a bad translation for "opportunity cost"

Let's be transparent with what I asked for exactly, I did not ask for cash payment, although I certainly did not attempt to quantify the actual costs until now.

I offered to provide:

1. 100+ man hours of local work on the ground here in the SF BAY Area from my company and me before the event occurs using the resources available to me from JUGs/tech groups located throughout the West Coast I'm not referring to social media marketing, but rather pounding pavement to promote ticket sales and sponsorship opportunities, and to encourage attendance of people and sponsorship from companies on an international scale, as I had done before for a similar past event.

2. Any gopher work at the event before, during, after, and in the evenings. Setting up rooms, activities, assisting catering, presentation equipment, entertainers, and other event vendors at the facilities.

3. I also offered usage license of my collection of over 500 professional photographs of a previous similar past event, in the past I had hired a professional photographer at a similar event.

4. I have already promptly responded to Robert regarding local information, and was planning to offer additional information recon as a local volunteer, when an offer was solicited as I had stated that it was clear my efforts have been and would continue to be above that of an attendee.

I asked to receive:

1. Admission for me and my volunteers.

2. I asked if space would be available in a hotel room, as the trains do not operate early or late enough.

3. I also asked to receive sponsorship at any level besides the lowest level, as that level of sponsorship was hardly visible at a previous similar event, and that event coordinator told me at that time, that my sponsorship needed to be lowered during the reorganization of the sponsorship levels, but that at future similar events (if this one would be successful), I should have earned my way up the volunteer sponsorship ladder. I certainly do not feel entitled, but I felt empowered to at least ask if this would be valid. I'm not looking for a commerical advantage over other attendees or sponsors, as I was accused of since I am strictly a buyer at this event.

--

I can clearly see that the cost of my small local business receiving a mediocre sponsorship status would incur significant costs to Open Source Matters, Inc. by devaluing all sponsorship levels and that if I want to attend that I would need to purchase a ticket, and that my efforts even without receiving anything in return are not only not welcomed, but these private emails would be forwarded to people who would later use my solicited offer as a threat to embarrass me while I was raising concerns of 25% (2 of 8 ) of the event coordinators violating a charter with their name on the credits of. Coincidentally in your previous post you announced that one of these people is the organizer of the "Program/Speakers" and you are the other person.

When I sign my name on something, I definitely believe in it, and don't step on other people while acting hypocritically and then claiming otherwise. Robert, I have tried to show that I have dedicated my passion and enthusiasm over several years for this very event. If you are going to change the name of the event from Joomla Day West to Joomla World Conference and you are going to decline additional sponsorships who are willing to provide additional requested resource other than cash, you should probably call the event "Ebay OSM Expo." Robert I am not asking for payment for my involvement.

Robert, transparency would be an important structural foundation to implement for a first time event, certainly your efforts aren't without a financial interest, and with that financial interest have come decision making abilities that have become uninteresting to the local community.

Originally I asked to make my appeal directly to other official organizers and requested their contact information multiple times, however I had learned through this thread that you did my bidding for me and to whom you did my bidding on my behalf to, therefor I would like to make a proper unfiltered appeal to the world.

Dear World Conference Organizers, please let me be an official organizer, I will buy my own ticket, and I will find my own accomodations, I can see myself as making a larger impact on the success of the event with my efforts and not by paying other people to do with my money what I am trying to volunteer to do. I have offered a man-month of efforts with the intention to increase the global value and local meaning of the event and not to decrease it.

_________________
Mike Hamanaka
http://community.joomla.org/showcase/ Community Site Showcase Moderator
http://www.vertualize.com Extension Management Consulting
Santa Monica, California, USA

Thank you, Robert, for your honesty and for keeping emotion in check. I'll be honest. I don't agree with the approach since it severely limits involvement and ends up being a bit of a "good 'ole boys" approach to things. I would love to see an open discussion list where others interested could participate. But I do understand that it takes a lot of time to do this in an open way and that while many participate in the talk, few actually do the work. I agree it is not a guaranteed right of a community to participate as desired and we do need to empower those who are responsible to get things done for a community. This is the first international event and I am certain it will be easier to broaden the circle as things go forward. What more can anyone really ask?

Mike - I'll tell you from personal experience that it does not work well to use a confrontational approach with Joomla, regardless of whether you are right or wrong, it's just going to bring you MORE frustration. This thread and a couple of others show your frustration and most of the time, it can be better to step away awhile and let things sort. In the end, does it really matter? You can still participate and have a full and meaningful experience. No one can stop that, Robert's absolutely correct on that point!

Having said that, I have not posted in this forum for awhile abut, I strongly disapprove of bullying and threatening people to stop dissent and I did see that in this thread on Twitter. Frankly, I believe it's morally wrong to ignore it when it is happening if you were unfortunate enough to see it. We are going to have to learn tolerance and patience. Joomla is not going to die because a frustrated person is posting and asking a lot of questions, but it *will* die if people believe new ideas are not welcome here, or that people wanting to volunteer are routinely turned away, or that it is clear that disagreeing could bring you personal harm. Who wants to be involved in that?

I hope the SF Jug takes the opportunity to serve as host for this event. It would be cool to see organized restaurant visits or guided walks thru historic areas, in addition to a meet and greet event on Friday. The J community is coming to your home town and bringing to life what's cool about SF would be a very neat way for the JUG to get involved and I guarantee you that this type of welcome will be meaningful to those who participate.

_________________
http://Twitter.com/AmyStephen
http://www.alltogetherasawhole.org/

Thank you for your reply Robert.



A great team of 'workers' of course with, mostly, excellent JAB organisation experience - thank you for all your work. I also understand that people will just get on with their part of the organisation and communicate only when required. Setting up the basic structure seems to have been done culminating, at the moment, with the website. At some point though, everything has to be 'co-ordinated' and it would be good if that was done in the form of a report available to the Community generally.



My third suggestion was to add a member of the local JUG to the team. Particularly as that JUG has 500 members in that area. Joomla Community Members. Looking at the team above you don't need more organisers but it does seem strange not to need input from the local community with all the experience 'localness' brings eg sponsorship gathering and certainly local communication although I would hope that the excellent Joomla Marketing Team would also be closely involved in that in conjunction with the SFJUG.

Is TJ a member of the SFJUG? If so, would and could TJ be the JUG/event team liaison? Two-way liaison? Would that be acceptable to the SF JUG, the Event Team & TJ?

I hope no-one doubts the capabilities of Robert to organise an event! But, unlike JAB, this is a 'Joomla Community Meeting' and it would be good if the community, in particular the local community, were able to be involved in decisions rather than having something 'done' to them whether they like it or not. Transparency would be also let community see how our money is being spent, who is provided with transport, accommodation, food etc. Please note: I know there is no conspiracy, no attempt to hide things and I hope no-one ever thinks there could be. But wouldn't it be easy to dispel any thoughts of this by reporting openly on progress and major decisions including finance?

Imagine holding a JWC in Cape Town, for example, and not involving Jacques or Matthew & his team.

This thread could end. But it shouldn't. A compromise from 'both sides' should and could be found. This is not a request to change the way of working - it is a request to allow the community, in particular the local community, to be involved in an event currently being organised on their 'patch' by people in other parts of the world. Robert has some good suggestions re local involvement on the periphery of the event but maybe that feels like 'flower arranging' compared to the local experience the SFJUG could bring to the actual event?

[purposely this reply does not address individual 'email' matters or sponsorship requests/refusals ]

_________________
Member of the OpenTranslators Team
http://opentranslators.org

Thanks Hils,

I think you are adding a breath of fresh air here!

TJ is on our list here but has not attended any of our events or meetings in my 3 years as an organizer/speaker in the SF area. A great guy from what I know and we welcome anyone to be part of our group.

The JWC team knows where to find us, and if they reach out we can consider being involved. Robert says they are open to our ideas. I gave them many ideas in March and opened the dialogue in an email to him months ago, and in this forum. In fact I talked with Grace Francisco of Microsoft who also believed we should be directly involved. We have not been contacted in any way and if this thread had not been created I am not sure the conversation would ever have happened.

I would hope that people can understand why myself and our members are perplexed by the responses we have gotten. The work that goes into managing a local JUG, raise funds, and promote Joomla is a big undertaking. In addition many of us rely on Joomla and a strong community to make a living. This is not an excuse, but a reality.

The friendly people of the Bay Area JUG are open and ready to listen and to give our ideas.

_________________
James Westley Foreman
J Foreman Group
{ ... design.develop.engage ... }
http://www.jamesforeman.biz

Hi Mike,

I hadn't something bad in mind with the "price-tag". You explained it more in detail so anyone knows what happened and can find the right word.

Hi Amy and Hils,

thanks for your suggestions. I am with you about openness and transparency. In the June issue of the magazin I ask for help and got two replies. One of them is now part of the team. As I started with this I thought about doing it in the way wikipedia is doing it for the anual Wikimania conference (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids), but that needs a lot of work on infrastructure and preprocessing. I think you can easily spend two years on that. We also did something in this direction for the JWC planned three years ago and it didn't work. The JAB way is working good and when you have a closer look at the team you will find out that besides me only two people are involved they also were involved in JAB. I think it is good combination of "newbies" and "oldies".

Involving the local people is important from my point of view and there is so much more than 'flower arranging'. I didn't reduce it to that, I said this is something I would like to see from the local community. Here are some ideas:

* Organizing tours and help as travel guide
* Create information material about the area
* Giving a presentations about the local economy and local business
* Creating a job board or a project search for help area
* Bringing the local business to the conference, as sponsor, as attendee, as whatever
* Organizing pre and post events
* Sharing a sponsorship with X small business to allow them to be better visible

I could continue ..... it is only about thinking behind the obvious, being not pissed when a proposal isn't accepted. We only said no to one proposal as that is not what volunteer means to us and the drama and complains started. Frankly that behavior doesn't qualifies as a team player and that is what we need more that anything else.

My offer to Mike, James and the local community let us try to restart, please think about what you can do to make this event a success. I gave some examples think along these lines and beyond.

_________________
Best Regards, Robert
My Blog: http://www.robert-deutz.de - follow me on twitter @rdeutz
Professional Services for Joomla! http://rdbs.de - follow on twitter @rdbsnews

Robert,

Thanks for your reply. I can appreciate your opinion and that you have better defined how you will receive participation at the community conference. Now that we are beyond clarifying exactly how Brian was attempting to embarrass me. I would like for this thread to return to my original concern or what you are referring to as "drama and complains."

Since this event is outside of the charter, would it be possible to make the master event budget and past/current/future expenses visible to the community so we can better make suggestions on how we want to be involved as community members for this event.

_________________
Mike Hamanaka
http://community.joomla.org/showcase/ Community Site Showcase Moderator
http://www.vertualize.com Extension Management Consulting
Santa Monica, California, USA

Mike i must say the specifics of the offer you made is quite different then you wrote in our debate the other day. There you said you had offered a cash sponsorship + volunteer help.

As for openess and transparancy i am fully for it - and i know so is Robert and the rest of the event team.

Personally this is the first event outside of Joomla! Day Denmark i am helping to organize (which i did twice) but having sponsored most of the Joomla! Days around the world and JAB the last coupple of years i do have quite a bit of insight into these events too.

Its a great idea to utilize local ressources from our community - but i also think its quite fair to point out that this is a global event and not a Joomla! Day as we also debated the other night and there is also quite a lot of different aspects to consider - and i do think you have been abit unfair in the angel you took in describing what was going on on twitter and in our skype chats as reading this thread reflect a different course of events.

Anyways as i said i hope you all attend and lets have a beer and some fun at night too - and if you organize a tour of Cali on the 19th i think there is a few of us who are visting US or Califonia for the first time that would consider going along

_________________
http://www.redcomponent.com/ - redSHOP, redEVENT, redMEMBER, redBOOKING, redFORM, redLIST, redCOMPETITION + other Joomla Extensions.
http://redweb.dk - Joomla Webdesign & Udvikling
redHOST.dk - 100% Joomla Webhotel - Dansk support med Joomla viden!

I have to comment on one more thing.

I must admit i dont get this concept of Mike and James being the "Directors" of the JUG or local people?

I mean in Denmark we have people from the JUGs offering to help - we have no directors or managers we are all part of the community.

Everyone chips in without gaining anything in return and without demanding anything and once the group is set that organizes the event even more people offer to help out at the event days, setting up, recording, registration and those with local knowledge show people the town and area is in general quite willing to help out.

It just seems sooo formal and un-communitylike i must admit reading these posts.

Is there no regular joes in the local JUGs? Isnt there any participation without gain?

I am sorry it just seems so far from what i am used to.

_________________
http://www.redcomponent.com/ - redSHOP, redEVENT, redMEMBER, redBOOKING, redFORM, redLIST, redCOMPETITION + other Joomla Extensions.
http://redweb.dk - Joomla Webdesign & Udvikling
redHOST.dk - 100% Joomla Webhotel - Dansk support med Joomla viden!

Mike as you mentioned me I will comment. I was not trying to embarrass you in any way in fact I was attempting and obviously failing (for which I apologise) to save you from embarrassment.

_________________
"Exploited yesterday... Hacked tomorrow"
Blog http://brian.teeman.net/
Joomla Hidden Secrets http://hiddenjoomlasecrets.com/

Hello Tresan,

So you have no leaders? So who sends emails, organizes events etc? Mike is a member and yes we have "average joes".

This is un-community like? So is it un-community like for OSM to have a President, or for you to be a Joomla Ace because you have posted on this forum more than others?

People keep bringing up gain... where is it that I am talking about gain? I am offering a service and personal time. As far as gain goes we all gain, and can gain together... so are you and Robert saying you are not gaining or getting perks for organizing the JWC? You work for RedComponent and you and your company will gain when being involved in JWC.

I will work to listen and hear the perspective of others. If we do it differently than so be it, that is how the world works... like giving a name in a post one thing I do differently.

Thanks,

_________________
James Westley Foreman
J Foreman Group
{ ... design.develop.engage ... }
http://www.jamesforeman.biz

Ronni, I'm not a leader of the SF Bay area JUG, James is. I have only been an attendee and cash sponsor at those group events, hopefully I can be your regular Joe.

Thanks for your apology Brian, I'm not embarrassed at all about my position, opinion, or proposal.

At this point, lets just move forward.

Sorry if there was any confusion about my proposal or discussion of this current proposal including sponsoring with direct cash payments from Vertualize Inc. to Open Source Matters Inc., I can see how my statement there and my lack of response to confirm/deny that from Hil's response may have been misleading. I have sponsored with direct and indirect cash payments at other Joomla events, but hadn't even got that far into the proposal negotiation process with Robert before the door was slammed shut and now a line has been drawn, I am sure I could have seen the value in making cash expenses in addition to volunteering my efforts. I volunteered and provided additional helpers for a previous similar event and my expenses were over $2,500. While the only cash I brought to the event organizers at that event was in sponsorships which I had lined up from other companies. Ultimately the wording is moot, since the major effort I was offering was sponsorship sales, there is no doubt in my mind that the attendance will be at capacity, if we will or won't be able to see the event expenses that will be further defining, and that is the direction that this thread should go.

It's starting to get stupid around here, I have to argue and appeal just to volunteer, criticized and label as a poor team member for discussing the charter, then get shunned away as someone who should just be an attendee, then the compromise suggested is to sponsor just with cash, still without seeing where the money goes. That is a tough pill to swallow.

ok let me think about it.

-Mike

Actually we supported the forming of all of our local JUGs, built a website for people to organize and create them (http://www.dkjug.dk), offer our office for JUG meetings (and sponsor food and drink) but neither me nor anyone from my company (redWEB/redCOMPONENT/redHOST) is involved in the organization groups in each JUG.

Those organizational groups are in charge of arranging the JUG events, which in reality means taking in the ideas and making sure there is a data set and a venue etc. and its all done on voluntary basis - and as long as our local JUGs are strong and active there is no need for us to take part in the organizational groups.

None of the JUG members are called leaders or directors but instead everyone carries the same weight - the organizational group is a service organ to the JUG not a platform to selfpromote.

As for our Danish Joomla! Day we also sponsor it as a main sponsor and an estimate would be we practically pay for 60-70% of the event (not counting the venue sponsor) including travel and board for all international guests etc.

Do we indirectly gain from a strong community and good active JUGs - sure as Joomla gains we gain - but we dont sponsor, nor offer our help etc. with a direct gain as a goal - and compared to what i read from the posts from you and Mike that seems to be a big difference.

So yeah i think it is rather un-community like to setup goals and gains for participation - it is after all not a contractual agreement between companies but our community we are talking about.

As for me being a Joomla Ace it has no value it just means i posted more than 1000 times on the forum - some in this thread has posted a lot more - it makes me no more or less a member of the community than anyone else and there is a lot of ways of taking part in the community i think after all the main thing here is the community and not which "hat" or "title" i can attach to myself.

I think if you guys wants to chip in and offer to volunteer with some local contribution from your JUG thats fantastic so lets try and get that going and stay in the spirit of the community

_________________
http://www.redcomponent.com/ - redSHOP, redEVENT, redMEMBER, redBOOKING, redFORM, redLIST, redCOMPETITION + other Joomla Extensions.
http://redweb.dk - Joomla Webdesign & Udvikling
redHOST.dk - 100% Joomla Webhotel - Dansk support med Joomla viden!

Hello,

Great Ronni. Thanks for your perspective.

Comparing your "sponsorship", how much was spent over another person or company, or the way you give over another in a community is a gaining perspective. This is a core belief in Buddhism and a principle to ponder on. You are essentially doing what you label as un-community like.

This will be my last post on this thread... no need to continue a contentious conversation, especially with someone I do not know and have no idea what drives them. Community is as important as anything and I would not be involved otherwise.

We can definitely offer a great beer night here for sure! Should be easy enough...

Cheers!

_________________
James Westley Foreman
J Foreman Group
{ ... design.develop.engage ... }
http://www.jamesforeman.biz

Robert - thanks for your positive comments. Your list of local community engagement ideas is really great and I am encouraged by James comments. That local involvement helps round out the conference and I am so glad to see this positive.

Given the discussion about transparency and contributions and "rights", etc., I just wanted to share a recent article by Simon Phipps who is now OSI Board President, encourage you to follow him @webmink on Twitter.

http://radar.oreilly.com/2012/07/open-s ... egies.html

So many times, we unnecessarily tie our own moral code on these concepts and it can lead to conflict. In general, the more transparent and open a project can be, the better able community can participate. But, this is a journey and there isn't one way of doing this, nor is it very constructive to tell people they, as individuals are 'doing it wrong.' We are each entitled to our own motivations to participate and privacy. We are not entitled to having things our way and we should support those who are working on our behalf.

Really pleased to see this event taking place, thankful that Robert has hung in there over the years, and thrilled to see this situation turn around.

Cheers, guys.

_________________
http://Twitter.com/AmyStephen
http://www.alltogetherasawhole.org/