Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by speeduneed » Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:23 am

slinky wrote:
speeduneed wrote: Again...JoomlaChurch
if you paid for a commercial non GPL extention and you used it with your GPL extention then you are not in violation.
Its the person who is selling his program under a more limiting licence that needs to come into compliance not you.
And again, rest easy that while you very likely won't get sued, be prepared for the fact that development of those extensions will no longer occur. Many essentials in your site are now "dead" for development purposes and especially as they relate to transition to 1.5.

Louis, yeah, I think you're right. I apologize for not making my feelings perfectly clear but they weren't malicious at all. My point wasn't the age dig for the sake of condescension. You'll see. It's the fact that to him there was no sense of urgency to get anything done. I'm also not married. But I completely appreciate how my independence, especially when I was younger and subsidized, didn't allow me to see how much pressure people have to earn money -- especially with dependents. When I was in college I could AFFORD to be an idealist!!! I empathize with developers who are telling me that while perhaps the GPL may, perhaps, work out for humanity in the long run, for many here they must deal with the immediate needs of putting bread on the table for several dependents. I apologize if it came out a little snide.

My point about the superlawyers, yeah, perhaps again a little bit of fun. :) I'm very concerned not about the legalities but about practical repercussions here and we are seeing them. I hope to help avoid this. I know that my sites - and I'm not alone - will feature a significant number of integral extensions that will now be discontinued.

How about this for productive -- we start by listing all the extensions in our library that are now non-compliant and which developers may or may not decide to continue to support? Then we can all see and quantify just what the potential damage could be and exactly what potential holes we now need to fill.

One caveat all - not fearmongering, just the sad truth. Remember -- newcomers will now be unable to use these extensions at all. They will look at those of us who purchased with significant envy. Those require the permission of developers who will now no longer be offering them for sale...
Dead huh....
Well most of the commerical NON compliant apps have GPL counter parts. I would highly bet that if those apps
disappeared tommorrrow it would cause people to finish up the GPL counter parts ones quickly to fill the need.

If those app stop development they would most likely want to get every last penny out of the extention as possiable so I would bet that they will keep selling for as long as they can or until the product stop selling. I highly doubt that if a commercial non compliant extention is selling well that they will stomp off and shut down their profit center. Sure some non profit generating one will. But if people are greedy then they will continue to sell the ion cube encoded apps.

Again nothing has really changed except we are now out of the Joomla "Dont ask Dont tell" policy period.

At this point the decision and statement cannot be reversed and no commerical developer is being shut down. Those people are our friends as you are.

If you are super smart and you want to become a Joomla commercial GPL compliant developer then now is the best time to change your tune. We have the Core Teams Ear!!!!!!! They rarely break silence this way and I would bet that you would find them more then willing to find ways to help us make money with Joomla that fits in the GPL eco system model.

I would also bet if some of those commercial non compliant developers would say "ok" we accept the GPL and back us up here then they might get real support in the future for helping everyone to make money.

Even the movie industry understands this. They have changed the speed DVD's are released because they understand that people and software move fast. Lets help build a model for people to take advantage of that.

Hell lets show the world that "open source matters" and open source can make us all wealth. Nothing better then to show everyone this model can be VERY successful.

First since I am now over the fact that we are a GPL compliant biz then I want core to tell us what moves they can do for people like me to help me make money. Software bountys, subscription models, paid support ticket system, integrated services and reseller programs etc etc.

The community has spent enough time developing the core software. Lets spend some time building up some models to help individual developers who want to work on GPL compliant extentions. Then lets make the profitability public knowledge so that other developers can learn how tto increase their own profitability.

I see stuff like...

I start an extention on the Joomla site and people can sign up for a few types of subscription models.

individual extention subscription
complete extention subscriptions
template subscritpions
security notifications subscriptions
support ticket subscritptions with direct access to the developer
review system where the support tickets are open so that everything is public knowledge etc

I know this might be way off for a free community. But we also agree that we have a success with Joomla and open source.
Lets also show our commitment not to slam the developers like Phil, Emir and others who I think has been a hugely help and great assest to our community.

I would hate to see them go over their need to make a living. We as a community should be able to help any developer who is dedicated and works hard to be able to make a real living developing real software for Joomla.

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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by marlar » Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:29 am

mattm wrote: site visits ,downloads,support continue to rise as others are distributing your extension for you.
trend goes upward. And you have built a great extension and support site.
Although you mean it well, you forget one important fact. If you sell extensions then all customers will pay, but not all will need support. At least not in any major degree. Some will, yes, but not all. If on the other hand you give the extensions away for free (or somebody else does) then all your customers will be people who seriously need support in such a degree that they are willing to pay for it. See how much more time you will have to spend on support per customer? How much time would that leave for actually developing the extension?

It's in a way like insurance companies. The reason why you can pay a few bucks a year and get a new house if it burns down, is that not all people's houses burn down. Imagine if you could buy the insurance after the house was burnt down - end of business for the insurance company.
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by marlar » Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:35 am

@mattm

As a corollary to my own post:

If you create an extension that is:

1. working out of the box
2. easy and intuitive to install and use
3. versatile
4. well documented
5. bugfree
6. etc.

How would you then gain any profit for it using your model?
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by sirarthur » Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:55 am

skOre wrote: Why would somebody taking the sourcecode, offering bad enhancements, bad support and generally less value be a threat to the original developer? FOSS works by implication here - if you keep working to stay in the game, nobody will try to take your throne. This is how it works for Joomla as for any other of such projects. In fact, its only that things get forked if the original developers screw up, which is how it kind of was with Joomla.

Asking of users to "consume", but to keep the consumption to themselves is not only naive, but also very counterproductive.
So every 3rd party developer is doing "bad enhancements", with "bad support" and with "less value"? Amazing!
And projects just come to be forked is messed up; so let me know where did Mambo messed up to be forked on Joomla or PHPShop to be forked on VirtueMart or osCommerce to be forked on Zen-Cart or PHPAuction to be forked to Sourceforge.

Are you a developer or a user, btw?

Naive and counterproductive  is also to have a program who beats major hits and get nothing out of it.
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by mattm » Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:58 am

marlar wrote: @mattm

As a corollary to my own post:

If you create an extension that is:

1. working out of the box
2. easy and intuitive to install and use
3. versatile
4. well documented
5. bugfree
6. etc.

How would you then gain any profit for it using your model?
you can still make profit from selling your download if it contains everything mentioned above why would you need to develop it further. You as a developer should be more interested in how the users feel and how you are going to support your product.


And if it were everything you described above I probably wouldn't have a problem paying for it.
Under a commercial license unless you are prepared to give a warranty to ensure your product works. Instead of just listing it does.
I have bought several commercial extensions and to my dismay they did not look as they did in their demo and support for them was almost non existant.
I believe that supporting your products more important to people. Cost of a product is not the issue.
I'm not say all commercial extensions are released like the ones i described.
But at least if a developer suddenly is no longer able to support his extension where does that leave the user.

All i ask is try releasing a good GPL extension include your copywrite and links where to get support.
give it a little time and see if its not profitable.

remember you don't have to release it for free. but if you charge customers will expect what they paid for and will also expect support.

-edited typos
Last edited by mattm on Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by jonblazn » Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:37 am

I have two sites that are both HIGHLY dependent on several commercially licensed extensions. I have NO problem paying for a high quality extension if it ensures that it will be updated and provided good support. Many extensions are niche-market products that I feel wouldn't be serviced if not for $.

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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by slinky » Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:48 am

jonblazn wrote: I have two sites that are both HIGHLY dependent on several commercially licensed extensions. I have NO problem paying for a high quality extension if it ensures that it will be updated and provided good support. Many extensions are niche-market products that I feel wouldn't be serviced if not for $.
My friend... you have MANY friends. That is why we are so vocal -- we APPRECIATE the great work that existed here. I dare you find better "non-compliant" developers for any other CMS.
speeduneed wrote: Well most of the commerical NON compliant apps have GPL counter parts. I would highly bet that if those apps
disappeared tommorrrow it would cause people to finish up the GPL counter parts ones quickly to fill the need.
I've spent months looking at all those GPL counterparts. Most of them SUCK. They don't work completely. They are half done. They represent the efforts of people who, while I appreciate them donating their work, need to focus their efforts elsewhere and on making money so they can pay the rent. I BOUGHT the commercial extensions because most of the GPL ones just didn't cut it. The commercial versions came out because the GPL versions weren't cutting it. And I am far from the only one as you can see.
If those app stop development they would most likely want to get every last penny out of the extention as possiable so I would bet that they will keep selling for as long as they can or until the product stop selling. I highly doubt that if a commercial non compliant extention is selling well that they will stomp off and shut down their profit center. Sure some non profit generating one will. But if people are greedy then they will continue to sell the ion cube encoded apps.
I've already been notified that several developers are walking. Most aren't making the killing you think they are. And if you think that these proud people are going to change their licenses because now, after all this time, you're going to force them to then you might want to think about people's sense of pride and dignity. Nobody likes to be treated this way. I'll say this much about the commercial developers here -- you picked the wrong group to divide. Like many, virtually all of the commercial Joomla extensions I bought have been, far and away, more polished than the crap I've wasted money on over the years. That is what made it far more special than any crappy CMS that has come and gone over the years.
speeduneed wrote: At this point the decision and statement cannot be reversed and no commerical developer is being shut down. Those people are our friends as you are.
Respectfully... this is 100% wrong. It is the attempt to reverse the precedent that has been practice here for years is that cannot be reversed. You have nobody but yourselves to blame for this. Everyone saw it happening and it was blessed. As they say in baseball, it is FAR easier to run forwards than it is to run backwards. Once you've unleashed it without restriction, you can't start telling people they now cannot enjoy those freedoms without severe reprecussions.

Second - it is FACT that commercial developers ARE SHUTTING THEMSELVES DOWN. Why are you not accepting this? You act as if changing their license is no big deal. Well, these experienced people are telling you it is. If Joomla let them conduct business in this fashion for years, what did you expect to happen?
If you are super smart and you want to become a Joomla commercial GPL compliant developer then now is the best time to change your tune. We have the Core Teams Ear!!!!!!! They rarely break silence this way and I would bet that you would find them more then willing to find ways to help us make money with Joomla that fits in the GPL eco system model.
I would also bet if some of those commercial non compliant developers would say "ok" we accept the GPL and back us up here then they might get real support in the future for helping everyone to make money.
The super smart developers have JOBS and are guaranteed money. They don't need to join your little party to prove a point at the risk of never making a dime. Do you know how many times I've seen CEOs of startup companies of all sizes give the "roll up our sleeves" speech? So have many others here. And at least they were promising options!!!

The problem is the system worked incredibly well -- too well for some of you. The super super smart developers aren't donating their time here. They are being paid well by people like my employer. In fact, there is a dearth of talent -- worldwide -- and this might be the WORST time to find talented developers with free time who are willing to donate it here to fill in the holes left by commercial developers who are now on the verge of leaving this project.
Hell lets show the world that "open source matters" and open source can make us all wealth. Nothing better then to show everyone this model can be VERY successful.
Three cheers for open source! Hip Hip Hoorah!!!!

It pains me to write this. I hope to save the future of my projects and Joomla. I've been around long enough to watch great projects die and these kinds of feelgood words are not going to attract the kind of talent that is now telling me they will no longer support my commercial extensions. I'd rather not stick my head in the ground and not watch what is going on around me just to try to prove a point that open source CAN BE successful. In case you didn't notice, up until last week, Joomla was WILDLY POPULAR. Try repeating that success... and this time without some up front money...

I don't have time to keep writing unfortunately. I have to go out and earn money to pay for my sushi dinner. I am taking a little hiatus tomorrow. I hope when I return we can plan a practical approach at moving forward and perhaps we might consider getting back to the status quo. It sure beats running blindly into the darkness without a plan.
Last edited by slinky on Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by Jenny » Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:57 am

@slinky
Joomla! is still widly popular, and will continue to be in the foreseeable future.  If some are telling you they aren't going to develop anymore that is sad.  There will always be others to take their place.  That is the way it works in any business.  If one doesn't want to make the money, then someone else will.  It is human nature.

@jonblazn

GPL doesn't mean no $.  So you can still keep paying money for quality extensions with excellent support.  And you prove a good point.  People are willing to pay good $ for quality and support.  Have no fear that there won't be good quality extensions to purchase that have excellent support.  The market from what our friend slinky is suggesting is about to open up in a big way. 
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by manuman » Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:57 am

jonblazn wrote: I have two sites that are both HIGHLY dependent on several commercially licensed extensions. I have NO problem paying for a high quality extension if it ensures that it will be updated and provided good support. Many extensions are niche-market products that I feel wouldn't be serviced if not for $.
So if the extensions were GPL compliant and the authors offered commercially backed updates and support you would presumably take that on at a cost to ensure you got what you wanted?
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by manuman » Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:06 am

As an addendum to my previous post, many *users* have identified that they have a need for commercial extensions, specifically the support and ongoing development.

This is where you, the users have the ability (far more than anyone in the Core Team or the commercial devs themselves ) to make this happen.

Ultimately its your actions in supporting these extensions regardless of licensing model that will make a difference. Its all good to speak about it here, but its what you do next that will really count. Tell your commercial developers that you need their product and will pay for the support and continued development. Then follow that up by doing so.

If you don't and your developer folds or walks away, then you to have played a part in that.
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by vscribe » Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:09 am

How would you suggest resolving the current issue in difference with the 3pds and the gnu adherence?

Your statement, while very good, is without meaning. It has no substance.

You will feel better as user if your dev walks off?

??
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by mattm » Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:09 am

slinky wrote:
Respectfully... this is 100% wrong. It is the attempt to reverse the precedent that has been practice here for years is that cannot be reversed. You have nobody but yourselves to blame for this. Everyone saw it happening and it was blessed. As they say in baseball, it is FAR easier to run forwards than it is to run backwards. Once you've unleashed it without restriction, you can't start telling people they now cannot enjoy those freedoms without severe repercussions.

Second - it is FACT that commercial developers ARE SHUTTING THEMSELVES DOWN. Why are you not accepting this? You act as if changing their license is no big deal. Well, these experienced people are telling you it is. If Joomla let them conduct business in this fashion for years, what did you expect to happen?

Hmmm.... This is confusing and quite possibly childish. Your not getting what you want so shut your doors Completely. I can guarantee you you wont get any sales from shutting down. Guess the sushi is out of the question ;D

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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by Jenny » Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:14 am

vscribe wrote: How would you suggest resolving the current issue in difference with the 3pds and the gnu adherence?

Your statement, while very good, is without meaning. It has no substance.

You will feel better as user if your dev walks off?

??

They have a choice, they can adhere to the license or not.  If they don't others will take their place.  It is the same in every single other business.  If you don't follow the trend you will be left behind.

If they walk off, there are others that will step in. People like to make money.  There is money to be made.  If one developer doesn't wish to make that money, someone else will. 
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by jonblazn » Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:27 am

manuman wrote: So if the extensions were GPL compliant and the authors offered commercially backed updates and support you would presumably take that on at a cost to ensure you got what you wanted?
Yes I would but I fear that the extensions would not be produced in the first place (the MAJOR time investment) if their was no money to be made up front.

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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by mattm » Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:37 am

jonblazn wrote:
manuman wrote: So if the extensions were GPL compliant and the authors offered commercially backed updates and support you would presumably take that on at a cost to ensure you got what you wanted?
Yes I would but I fear that the extensions would not be produced in the first place (the MAJOR time investment) if their was no money to be made up front.
oh but there is money to be made up front you dont have to release for free.........
charge for the download......
charge for the source files.......
charge for a membership to recieve updates and support.....
all the money you could ever want

that is of course if its about the money

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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by manuman » Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:39 am

jonblazn wrote:
manuman wrote: So if the extensions were GPL compliant and the authors offered commercially backed updates and support you would presumably take that on at a cost to ensure you got what you wanted?
Yes I would but I fear that the extensions would not be produced in the first place (the MAJOR time investment) if their was no money to be made up front.
If the market is there there then I would be surprised if the entrepreneurial types wouldn't take advantage. If there market is not there then they wouldn't have lasted anyway.
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by Jenny » Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:41 am

jonblazn wrote:
manuman wrote: So if the extensions were GPL compliant and the authors offered commercially backed updates and support you would presumably take that on at a cost to ensure you got what you wanted?
Yes I would but I fear that the extensions would not be produced in the first place (the MAJOR time investment) if their was no money to be made up front.
None of the major developers that develop for the community had money upfront before they developed their extensions at least not that I know of.  I don't see the parallel.

The only way I could see that they would is if they were hired personally to custom develop and then decided to release the extension otherwise.
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by phpcoder » Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:54 am

I've been using Joomla! for about six months and currently have two sites running it, I love the software and the wealth of extensions. Previous to working with Joomla! I've been very active in the osCommerce community and from there am very familiar with the GPL. The project too has an enormous library of "contributions" all of which that listed on the project site carry a GPL license, a few of that I have authored myself.

When I first came to the Joomla! project, I did find it odd that some extensions carry a commercial license, I had no issue about having to pay for some extensions because the GPL clearly states that GPL code may be sold, however it makes absolutely no sense to me how someone can change the license from GPL to commercial no matter how they try to rationalize it, if it were not for the core application where would their extension be?

I have absolutely no issue what so ever paying for an extension, and I have for a handful. My expectation is that if I do pay for extension that what I am really paying for is the availability of timely support. That seems to be the case some of the time but not always. On the whole I haven't noticed a real difference in quality and performance between GPL extensions and commercial licensed extensions. In fact Some of my favorite extensions, ones that have impressed me most have been GPL extensions. That is not to say that some of the commercial extensions do not represent excellent work, rather to say that many GPL extensions represent outstanding work as well.

Again I have absolutely no issue at all paying for an extension, I do have very serious issues with those extensions that use encryption. A) because rarely is it that I have not had to perform some modifications to extensions is order for them to work the way I want for my sites, and B) how do I know that there is not some hidden code there that may harm my SEO efforts for example.

I rarely visit these forums even though I spend at least a portion of every day working with Joomla!, so I apologize for chiming into this discussion while some seem to feel its run its course, but had some opinions I wanted to express. I actually found out about this thread from an email I received from someone I had purchased an extension from and suggested people post to this thread using some cut and paste text which he provided. I'm happy to see that most people did not take his advice on that, but I was curious to see what the excitement was all about.

I know exactly the amount of effort that goes into producing a quality piece of software such as an extension. As I said I've written a few for other projects and am currently working on an extension for Joomla! 1.5. I don't think it matters if you are doing it because you want to contribute to a community that may have helped you in some way or if your motivation is a financial return on your time invested, either way you have to have a love for what you are doing.

One last comment, as I've read through several of these messages, I've read many complain about the core team now enforcing the GPL for extensions. I don't even see that as a choice. Realizing that I've come to this project when it had already achieved a mature state, I don't see how the decision was ever made to allow non-GPL extensions in the first place.
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by slinky » Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:05 am

mattm wrote: Hmmm.... This is confusing and quite possibly childish. Your not getting what you want so shut your doors Completely. I can guarantee you you wont get any sales from shutting down. Guess the sushi is out of the question ;D
I am shutting of my subscribe to thread as I can't read this any more...

What sales? You aren't listening to what these developers are telling you. They are saying that they don't believe changing their licensing will result in enough sales to buy the sushi. It's easier for them to go elsewhere to make money. You guys act as if there was a gold mine here and the developers are just all to eager to get in the door.
manuman wrote: This is where you, the users have the ability (far more than anyone in the Core Team or the commercial devs themselves ) to make this happen.
Ultimately its your actions in supporting these extensions regardless of licensing model that will make a difference. Its all good to speak about it here, but its what you do next that will really count. Tell your commercial developers that you need their product and will pay for the support and continued development. Then follow that up by doing so.
The developers know this. They just aren't willing to change their licensing since they don't believe it will make them the same money as did before. Why are all of you not listening to them?
MMMedia wrote: They have a choice, they can adhere to the license or not.  If they don't others will take their place.  It is the same in every single other business.  If you don't follow the trend you will be left behind.
If they walk off, there are others that will step in. People like to make money.  There is money to be made.  If one developer doesn't wish to make that money, someone else will. 
Again, what pot of gold here are you talking about? You think that many of these developers are getting paid by all of you hitting the "donate" button? :) Heh... so let's get a show of hands as to how many of you pay reasonable dollars for all the extensions you didn't have any obligation to pay for?

So who are these developers taking the place of the departed? You? skOre? You're right people like to make money. They also don't like taking all the risks this model places on making money. Putting the chicken and the egg in the right order, most of the commercial extensions that are being jettisoned here were created because nobody felt it was worthwhile to make more than a half-baked effort at creating a solution. We waited long enough for great commercial extensions to come out. It goes without saying that you'll have to wait even longer for the GPL compliant ones. Good luck waiting.

I'll share with you one last piece of information before I leave and click the unsubscribe button. The people who really made money here were the ones closest to development who could land big corporate gigs in the guise of being a XYZ CMS expert. Then they get paid X thousand dollars by a company that could afford it to build a customized version of the CMS. Most developers here aren't raking it in and standing in line to develop extensions for GPL-based software. If you don't believe me, go to drupal. Other than the core, their extensions are weak. The best sites were created custom by people who are very, very familiar with the core. Extensions developers flocked to Joomla because they had the freedom to pick their business model to make money. As of this week, those freedoms are now gone - temporarily I hope.

I know how much it costs just to build a commenting system like Jom Comments, which is in violation from what I can see. I love that extension and am going to miss the good folks at Azrul -- who actually gave you a free copy in a promo if I remember. What awful people these non-complying developers are.

I know how much it costs to build a ratings system like reviews for joomla. I miss ya Alejandro. Your free version still works and the current is a true work of art.

So respectfully, while you can hypothesize and cite to me all this logic about how all these developers will just fill in the blanks for you, I've already calculated the costs and see what these developers see. Facts, cold hard dollars and sense. Not just logical reasoning in theory. I realize how many sales they must make - how many good souls must donate - in order to make an investment in building these "trivial" applications the polished works of art they are.

My modest signature was deleted after 8 years after I requested one dead link to be removed from my own post. Go figure. Here goes the promo version instead.

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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by Basetballjones » Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:09 am

I'm sorry to break off on a tangent, but due to what seems like a heightened unrest and worry from the users,  I would ask that Joomla.org amend it's recent posting regarding their GPL compliance, with a statement to end users better explaining it's meaning to them.

Most of the context is rather general touching on developers but not quite clear to what this all means to John Doe, Joomla! user.

At the very least, perhaps an 'announcement thread' aimed at this very purpose

I understand there is a better place to ask/submit this suggestion, but I felt it important to pose it in open forum for the input of all.
Is it even needed?  I perceive it to be so, but I could be wrong.  I see some worry, it's not a "Scare" yet, but it could become one.

Secondly, the context of the amendment;  While it has been discussed extensively here in this thread, condensing it down into a few bullets, and putting a layman's spin on it would really help the users to understand more fully the implications of the entire announcement.


Like I said, I may be wrong, maybe everyone gets it better than I think they do, very few have commented about their confusion, but with so many users, I can see it [confusion] spreading quickly.
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by speeduneed » Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:27 am

de wrote:
speeduneed wrote:
p9939068 wrote: Wow, that's really "GREAT!!!!" Now I cannot be sued by the developer even when I misuse the software!!! I hope GPL will be extended to all other legal areas! Then I cannot be sued when I misuse anything!! Perhaps one day I can even get away with rape!


Great to know the advocates of GPL are also advocates of misusing software (or misusing anything, for that matter). My point is made, feel free to remove this post.
The developer who released a derivative extention of a GPL application is actually the person who misused the software licence they accepted as a part of using this software.  So why would you be in favor of that violator suing his own customer when he was the one who violated the terms of the licence he accepted as a part of using GPL software? Get a clue!!!!
This "violation" is based on an interpretation of the GPL and not a [yet] pr oven fact. And of course does it not give you the right to do what you like with the software (as stated earlier). As also stated previously you do not have any means to sue the developer (that can only the copyright holder). And until then the non-GPL license is to follow.
If you read many of my previous posts. I have expressed that no one should take any suspected non compliant GPL code and redistribute or do anything that might be of anything but following that licence. We are speaking of in the event that someone did hypothetically do something with that code and a developer when to sue him the person could simply argue that the code was in violation and there fore that code was actually a GPL derivative as a way to fight the case.

Some of these developers are my friends. I have no intention of making them feel any more hurt then I know they already do by taking that software and giving it away.

Technically I personal am also hurt by this as I have half a shopping seo shopping cart system written for Joomla as well but I totally understand that I joined this community because I know that if I had not been able to share code 3 years ago. I would never have learned how to write software in the first place. Joomla/mambo has been my "professional" educator. I got to see all the best secrets for creating a really software package and it has paid my bills for the last 3 years. Bought my new car and I am hoping to say that soon Joomla/Mambo will have bought me my new home. Joomla is a tool to make money. Joomla is a tool to use to build websites. GO BUILD WEBSITES!!!!!!!

Do I suggest anyone distribute that code? no
Will I personally stop those developers? no
Will I give away without paying for those licences? no I have no problem paying people when I need code!!!!!!
I would just prefer that code be "open source" so I can use it and optimize it for my clients.
Will someone not read all my posts and miss my points? sure...
Some people around here think that the potential for what could happen in the event of legal suits arise could be problematic so they say nothing because they are afraid. I have no interest in abusing those people who worked hard on those extentions and I under stand the current dilemma. I personally will continue to pay for those extentions until the status changes or until they find a replacement.

Do I feel the need to write out those developers? Not really
The minor cost some are charing is not even worth a lawsuit and not worth my time to build those extentions.
I plan on continuing to pay them for their work until those companies make up their mind what they plan on doing.
Its biz as usual. If you wrote an extention then you now know that you have a very major problem with licencing and I would expect each company to either make up their own mind or continue unaware.

Anyone who is an idiot enough to post a "potentially" non compliant extention is doing more harm to the community then good.

Look at it this way.
The core team feels that most of these extentions are in violation and they have asked the developers to reevaluate their own code based on certain beliefs and if they feel their code is not compliant based on those beliefs for them to change their licence to become GPL compliant. With all the core team has given to those developers I would hope they would consider this as it is the core team who made those developers extentions possialbe in the first place.

If they do review their own code and feel that code is non compliant and they continue to sell that product then I personally will continue to pay for that product according to that licence if I want to use it.

Also I would like to suggest that to anyone of the commercial developers who now feels as if he has just lost his job and his company I would hope that you look to the community to find a new path to a new way of profitabilty. I have posted my general web design sales methods in the other forum and I would like to hear ways that the community can help these guys make the transition to new and maybe more profitable model.

If a developer chooses to stay in the grey zone I dont think anyone here will care and in fact it might be just what ends up happening.
They know what non compliant GPL software means for their company and its not any where near as bad as what could have happened to some of them. Out side of the flamewar these developers are not going to need to spend years in court to protect their work. They are just on notice. Legal Limbo....

Paul

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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by tcp » Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:28 am

speeduneed wrote: Your company is not at risk of anything. Even if you buy a commercially licenced extention and use it with a GPL program.
Joomla cannot sue you as you are not distributing software and you personally have not violated the licence. This only takes away "DISTRIBUTORS" intellectual property rights of non compliant extention developers. For your company this is actually GREAT!!!! because it means your company cannot be sued by that commercail developer for misusing the software.
Wow, that is a very extreme interpretation of the GPL which contradicts what the Joomla Team have been very generous in clarifying.

Did you really mean to say that distributors will loose their intellectual property rights?  I think giving away IP is great, but taking it is ultra extreme.  Why do you think this is great? 

You can understand, I think, how many people consider a statement like yours as very offensive, and why some people start to view the GPL as a great evil.  I hope you do not think of the GPL as Robin Hood, stealing from the rich and giving to the poor.  In real life, Robin Hood characters are not so admirable.
slinky wrote: Second - it is FACT that commercial developers ARE SHUTTING THEMSELVES DOWN. Why are you not accepting this? You act as if changing their license is no big deal. Well, these experienced people are telling you it is. If Joomla let them conduct business in this fashion for years, what did you expect to happen?
I don't necessarily agree with this but there is a lot of truth to find here.  For example, I'm now confronted with the scenario that I need to remove features from my software so that I can bring in clients for consulting.  I will need to stop distributing my documentation ( 60 pages ) that I am currently giving away and to limit access to my support forum.  This breaks my heart.  I take a lot of pride in providing excelent support to my customers, even those using the free version, but if I GPL everything this will no longer be economically viable.

I love Joomla and have no intention to leave.  There are ways to work around the GPL issue.  These ways typically involve delivering an inferior product ( code, documentation, support ) so that one can attract clients.  Moving from a product-oriented business model to a service-oriented model is not the best choice for me and I'll have to find other ways to protect my IP from Robin Hood.

tcp

--edit Also see masterchief's post on How the GPL can protect little guys' business, and the thread How do 3pds make money in the GPL'ed Joomla! world?

I guess I've said all I can say in this thread.
Last edited by tcp on Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by speeduneed » Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:51 am

slinky wrote:
jonblazn wrote: I have two sites that are both HIGHLY dependent on several commercially licensed extensions. I have NO problem paying for a high quality extension if it ensures that it will be updated and provided good support. Many extensions are niche-market products that I feel wouldn't be serviced if not for $.
My friend... you have MANY friends. That is why we are so vocal -- we APPRECIATE the great work that existed here. I dare you find better "non-compliant" developers for any other CMS.
speeduneed wrote: Well most of the commerical NON compliant apps have GPL counter parts. I would highly bet that if those apps
disappeared tommorrrow it would cause people to finish up the GPL counter parts ones quickly to fill the need.
I've spent months looking at all those GPL counterparts. Most of them SUCK. They don't work completely. They are half done. They represent the efforts of people who, while I appreciate them donating their work, need to focus their efforts elsewhere and on making money so they can pay the rent. I BOUGHT the commercial extensions because most of the GPL ones just didn't cut it. The commercial versions came out because the GPL versions weren't cutting it. And I am far from the only one as you can see.
If those app stop development they would most likely want to get every last penny out of the extention as possiable so I would bet that they will keep selling for as long as they can or until the product stop selling. I highly doubt that if a commercial non compliant extention is selling well that they will stomp off and shut down their profit center. Sure some non profit generating one will. But if people are greedy then they will continue to sell the ion cube encoded apps.
I've already been notified that several developers are walking. Most aren't making the killing you think they are. And if you think that these proud people are going to change their licenses because now, after all this time, you're going to force them to then you might want to think about people's sense of pride and dignity. Nobody likes to be treated this way. I'll say this much about the commercial developers here -- you picked the wrong group to divide. Like many, virtually all of the commercial Joomla extensions I bought have been, far and away, more polished than the crap I've wasted money on over the years. That is what made it far more special than any crappy CMS that has come and gone over the years.
speeduneed wrote: At this point the decision and statement cannot be reversed and no commerical developer is being shut down. Those people are our friends as you are.
Respectfully... this is 100% wrong. It is the attempt to reverse the precedent that has been practice here for years is that cannot be reversed. You have nobody but yourselves to blame for this. Everyone saw it happening and it was blessed. As they say in baseball, it is FAR easier to run forwards than it is to run backwards. Once you've unleashed it without restriction, you can't start telling people they now cannot enjoy those freedoms without severe reprecussions.

Second - it is FACT that commercial developers ARE SHUTTING THEMSELVES DOWN. Why are you not accepting this? You act as if changing their license is no big deal. Well, these experienced people are telling you it is. If Joomla let them conduct business in this fashion for years, what did you expect to happen?
If you are super smart and you want to become a Joomla commercial GPL compliant developer then now is the best time to change your tune. We have the Core Teams Ear!!!!!!! They rarely break silence this way and I would bet that you would find them more then willing to find ways to help us make money with Joomla that fits in the GPL eco system model.
I would also bet if some of those commercial non compliant developers would say "ok" we accept the GPL and back us up here then they might get real support in the future for helping everyone to make money.
The super smart developers have JOBS and are guaranteed money. They don't need to join your little party to prove a point at the risk of never making a dime. Do you know how many times I've seen CEOs of startup companies of all sizes give the "roll up our sleeves" speech? So have many others here. And at least they were promising options!!!

The problem is the system worked incredibly well -- too well for some of you. The super super smart developers aren't donating their time here. They are being paid well by people like my employer. In fact, there is a dearth of talent -- worldwide -- and this might be the WORST time to find talented developers with free time who are willing to donate it here to fill in the holes left by commercial developers who are now on the verge of leaving this project.
Hell lets show the world that "open source matters" and open source can make us all wealth. Nothing better then to show everyone this model can be VERY successful.
Three cheers for open source! Hip Hip Hoorah!!!!

It pains me to write this. I hope to save the future of my projects and Joomla. I've been around long enough to watch great projects die and these kinds of feelgood words are not going to attract the kind of talent that is now telling me they will no longer support my commercial extensions. I'd rather not stick my head in the ground and not watch what is going on around me just to try to prove a point that open source CAN BE successful. In case you didn't notice, up until last week, Joomla was WILDLY POPULAR. Try repeating that success... and this time without some up front money...

I don't have time to keep writing unfortunately. I have to go out and earn money to pay for my sushi dinner. I am taking a little hiatus tomorrow. I hope when I return we can plan a practical approach at moving forward and perhaps we might consider getting back to the status quo. It sure beats running blindly into the darkness without a plan.
Hmmm
I dont think you have understood the open source model from day 1.
I share code with another developer and he shares his code with me.
Then we can both put the code in our toolbox and sell it to the guy who does not know how to operate the "code"
Because of that we use the GPL so that we can have fair use and share the code.
We need to see the code or we cannot use it because the code could be dangerous to us or our clients.
So as good citizens we must protect our clients by not giving them potentially dangerous code.
If your a good programmer then you can review the code in that component to see what is going on.
As you get more experienced you can share more code because you can write code faster.
Now if the other guy says "I dont want to share anymore" but I share then its not fair.
If that person encodes that code becauase he thinks his code is more important they all the rest of the code
then he could be endangering all of us and our clients.
This is not a microsoft we could sue if we find malitius code. This is some random developer who created an extention.
I have no way to trust him as I dont know him.
Also my clients have expectations that I can modify ALL the code for their needs.
Once commercial code in added I cannot do anything for them anymore.
The eco system falls apart. Thats the real point.
Its not about not paying someone to create an extention.
Its about creating an open system of sharing that anyone can take part in if they want to.

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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by speeduneed » Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:16 am

tcp wrote:
speeduneed wrote: Your company is not at risk of anything. Even if you buy a commercially licenced extention and use it with a GPL program.
Joomla cannot sue you as you are not distributing software and you personally have not violated the licence. This only takes away "DISTRIBUTORS" intellectual property rights of non compliant extention developers. For your company this is actually GREAT!!!! because it means your company cannot be sued by that commercail developer for misusing the software.
Wow, that is a very extreme interpretation of the GPL which contradicts what the Joomla Team have been very generous in clarifying.

Did you really mean to say that distributors will loose their intellectual property rights?  I think giving away IP is great, but taking it is ultra extreme.  Why do you think this is great? 

You can understand, I think, how many people consider a statement like yours as very offensive, and why some people start to view the GPL as a great evil.  I hope you do not think of the GPL as Robin Hood, stealing from the rich and giving to the poor.  In real life, Robin Hood characters are not so admirable.
slinky wrote: Second - it is FACT that commercial developers ARE SHUTTING THEMSELVES DOWN. Why are you not accepting this? You act as if changing their license is no big deal. Well, these experienced people are telling you it is. If Joomla let them conduct business in this fashion for years, what did you expect to happen?
I don't necessarily agree with this but there is a lot of truth to find here.  For example, I'm now confronted with the scenario that I need to remove features from my software so that I can bring in clients for consulting.  I will need to stop distributing my documentation ( 60 pages ) that I am currently giving away and to limit access to my support forum.  This breaks my heart.  I take a lot of pride in providing excelent support to my customers, even those using the free version, but if I GPL everything this will no longer be economically viable.

I love Joomla and have no intention to leave.  There are ways to work around the GPL issue.  These ways typically involve delivering an inferior product ( code, documentation, support ) so that one can attract clients.  Moving from a product-oriented business model to a service-oriented model is not the best choice for me and I'll have to find other ways to protect my IP from Robin Hood.

tcp

I can fully understand how you feel this is robin hood because this should never have gone on this long.
If you truely did not understand the GPL then I am VERY sorry. Sometimes I have come over a little over the top because I have been well aware of this issue for a couple of years because I also do a local free software foundation meet up. So to me this is very different.
To me I am fighting for the GPL. As far as joomla goes.

To counter your thoughts. I have half a shopping cart built which is pretty cool which I cannot sell as well.

Another point that you might not understand is that I spent 2 months last year writing an extention I wanted.
Once I finished the extention I posted that I had it working and recieved at least 1000 emails asking for it.
Unfortunately my extention required a commercial non compliant encoded extention to work.
That developer was charging 50 for his extention and if I released the extention publically then that developer would have gotten 50 bucks * the 1000. I posted the extention for a couple of months then took it down as that dev only wanted me to give him my code so he could include it with his. That developer also refused to pay me for my extention even though he intended to sell it.
Problem was my extention required his extention to work. The eco system failed. I lost my chance to give that extention to the community and get some sort of kudos from 1000s of people.

This whole sharing thing is very hard for people to accept.

Please explain to me why you cannot continue to release your software?
Please explain why you cannot use a GPL model.

What does your software do for people?

This questions are not to knock you in any way. I am curious as I  do not know your extention.

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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by leolam » Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:25 am

ok time to ask some questions as well. As most know we run a full-time professional services organisation and have build hundreds of Mambo and Joomla sites.

Now i am still not clear what this mean in liability: Let me give an example. A clients wants us to build a  site and he needs around 15 commercial components/mods. We make a turn-key deal with the client and we purchase within the financial framework of the contract all the needed components and modules. This is daily practice for us....

Now it turns out that the software we buy is considered a derived development from J-core.....Something we don't know....

My current understanding after reading 66 pages of posts is that the developer is in breach of the GPL and is liable since he distributes to me as user (i purchased). However I distribute the software as part of the deal to the end user which would make me liable as well since i could be considered a receiver since i distribute and use illegal software?....

remember "the receiver is as bad as the thief"

so where do i stand here?

Not amused at all  :-\

edit: question directed to Joomla-core

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Last edited by leolam on Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by bobbio2007 » Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:40 am

spiderglobe wrote: Not so good news for the Joomla! community that commercial extensions must be released under the GPL license.  :'(  :'(

We have decided to continue to developing so called "commercial" extensions but we will shift the logic of these extensions outside of Joomla, based on webservices.

The maintenance (database access and application logic) will be within a separated application outside of Joomla not making use of any of the Joomla classes and other logic from Joomla.
Presentation layers (= frontend integration) will be through the Joomla interface interacting with our applications based on webservices which can run beside Joomla.

Just wanted to make sure that any commercial developers out there still left with Joomla read spiderglobe's post. He has a very good idea. I know this is easier said than done but create your application outside of the Joomla install directory, have it's own install and then create a bridge between your product and Joomla. Ever use the SMF bridge? It would act like that. I know this won't work in all cases but it's something to consider. In absolutely no way can Joomla claim your project as a derivative of Joomla they can only claim the bridge and in that case just release the bridge free to members under the GPL.

Developers come up with solutions and this is a possible solution; I know there are others out there so if you have any ideas to help these developers please let them know.

Again, I am a supporter of open source and Joomla but I am also a supporter of a company's rights. When a company tries to take away rights there is a huge moral problem going on.

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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by speeduneed » Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:48 am

bobbio2007 wrote:
spiderglobe wrote: Not so good news for the Joomla! community that commercial extensions must be released under the GPL license.  :'(  :'(

We have decided to continue to developing so called "commercial" extensions but we will shift the logic of these extensions outside of Joomla, based on webservices.

The maintenance (database access and application logic) will be within a separated application outside of Joomla not making use of any of the Joomla classes and other logic from Joomla.
Presentation layers (= frontend integration) will be through the Joomla interface interacting with our applications based on webservices which can run beside Joomla.

Just wanted to make sure that any commercial developers out there still left with Joomla read spiderglobe's post. He has a very good idea. I know this is easier said than done but create your application outside of the Joomla install directory, have it's own install and then create a bridge between your product and Joomla. Ever use the SMF bridge? It would act like that. I know this won't work in all cases but it's something to consider. In absolutely no way can Joomla claim your project as a derivative of Joomla they can only claim the bridge and in that case just release the bridge free to members under the GPL.

Developers come up with solutions and this is a possible solution; I know there are others out there so if you have any ideas to help these developers please let them know.

Again, I am a supporter of open source and Joomla but I am also a supporter of a company's rights. When a company tries to take away rights there is a huge moral problem going on.
Very good. I posted this exact example about 10-15 pages ago.....
The only problem with it. Is that it is not retro active. All previous code could not be pulled out of GPL.
Also its a pain for developers to build a new app then a bridge. Makes it hard for clients who only know how to install software via the
joomla installer. But yes you can still move towards this model in the future.
It is a smart move for commercial developers anyway because then they gain.
1. abilty to make bridges to all the other cms systems
2. abilty to sell single copies to sites without system

also it forces them to build backends which no one likes to do
joomla saved them a ton of money by letting them not have to build a custom admin panel
Last edited by speeduneed on Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by bobbio2007 » Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:00 am

speeduneed wrote:
bobbio2007 wrote:
spiderglobe wrote: Not so good news for the Joomla! community that commercial extensions must be released under the GPL license.  :'(  :'(

We have decided to continue to developing so called "commercial" extensions but we will shift the logic of these extensions outside of Joomla, based on webservices.

The maintenance (database access and application logic) will be within a separated application outside of Joomla not making use of any of the Joomla classes and other logic from Joomla.
Presentation layers (= frontend integration) will be through the Joomla interface interacting with our applications based on webservices which can run beside Joomla.

Just wanted to make sure that any commercial developers out there still left with Joomla read spiderglobe's post. He has a very good idea. I know this is easier said than done but create your application outside of the Joomla install directory, have it's own install and then create a bridge between your product and Joomla. Ever use the SMF bridge? It would act like that. I know this won't work in all cases but it's something to consider. In absolutely no way can Joomla claim your project as a derivative of Joomla they can only claim the bridge and in that case just release the bridge free to members under the GPL.

Developers come up with solutions and this is a possible solution; I know there are others out there so if you have any ideas to help these developers please let them know.

Again, I am a supporter of open source and Joomla but I am also a supporter of a company's rights. When a company tries to take away rights there is a huge moral problem going on.
Very good. I posted this exact example about 10-15 pages ago.....
The only problem with it. Is that it is not retro active. All previous code could not be pulled out of GPL.
Also its a pain for developers to build a new app then a bridge. Makes it hard for clients who only know how to install software via the
joomla installer. But yes you can still move towards this model in the future.
It is a smart move for commercial developers anyway because then they gain.
1. abilty to make bridges to all the other cms systems
2. abilty to sell single copies to sites without system

also it forces them to build backends which no one likes to do
joomla saved them a ton of money by letting them not have to build a custom admin panel

"Very good. I posted this exact example about 10-15 pages ago....."

Sorry I must have missed it, either way I don't think at this point too many people are going to read all 60 some pages.

"Also its a pain for developers to build a new app then a bridge. Makes it hard for clients who only know how to install software via the joomla installer. But yes you can still move towards this model in the future."

Yes, I totally agree, unfortunately this is because Joomla has made it harder for the developer and end user.

"1. abilty to make bridges to all the other cms systems
2. abilty to sell single copies to sites without system"

Completely agree.

"also it forces them to build backends which no one likes to do
joomla saved them a ton of money by letting them not have to build a custom admin panel"

Joomla didn't save them money, Joomla saved them time. Many of these 3P apps already have backends, amember comes to mind and it already has a bridge plugin.

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spiderglobe
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by spiderglobe » Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:07 am

I still don't understand why templates are not seen as commercial extensions. The fact that CSS, images and HTML code is seen as data I find rather strange. Also note and take a good look at a lot of templates which are actual using Joomla code inside of the template, for example to look up the menu items and display this in a different manner

Please note that I can publish extensions also with a CSS, images and HTML code and say "he this extension is for display purpose". If I do so what is the difference?

I think that Joomla should reconsider the statement that templates are not under the GPL license.

Note: now that I'm typing this post I see above a BIG advertisement of "Pro Joomla TEmplates" from Rockettheme. I will almost think that there is a conflict of interest in the statement of the fact that Templates are different then extensions. Are their some relations between the core team and some of the commercial templates?
Last edited by spiderglobe on Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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leolam
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Re: Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?

Post by leolam » Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:25 am

spiderglobe wrote: Are their some relations between the core team and some of the commercial templates?
yes. that specific template club is run by Andy Miller, member of core

no comment on the rest of your post
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