Joomla! Discussion Forums

#1. So everyone is complaining that "Joomla's interpretation" of the GPL is quite radically different than everyone else's, and I can't disagree. I am no legal scholar, but mambo, phpbb, etc operate the "old way" as gnu/gpl with commercial add-on's so why can't Joomla? Is it merely a philosophical point that the Joomla core is trying to make about how they feel the gpl should be interpreted? To be perfectly honest, if someone writes a good piece of software I am happy to pay them for it and NOT get the source code to steal, change and resell. Why should we be afraid of that?

#2. What is in it for me? If Joomla has decided to go off the deep end here with such a radically different approach to the gpl which creates such problems for their users then why should we stick around?

Thanks for your thoughts. I am not trying to be purely argumentative here, but just trying to get to the heart of the matter and the questions on the minds of a lot of users.

Not true.

Firstly, "everyone" is not complaining at all.  In fact, lets look at some numbers   Joomla! has been downloaded over 1 million times from our forge since mid-march.  We have over 120,000 registered users on this forum alone.  The petition that was pushed out via several mail blasts and linked to on nearly every blog post surrounding the Joomla! license was signed by a little over 700 people.  Even if we were to assume that all of those are legitimate signatures, we would not arrive at "everyone".  Then lets look at responses on our forums.  There were an awful lot of people who came to our forums to post their concerns.  Most of them were asked to do so via mail blasts and blog posts presenting the author's skewed view of the situation.  Still, if we were to look at real numbers of now many came and did that we would still be talking in the hundreds, not even thousands.  Next, lets look at the email received at thoughts@opensourcematters.org which is where we directed people to send their thoughts on the matter.  Last check (it is not my job to read all of this email and process it) showed a majority of people supporting our decision and not wanting to post those thoughts to the forum for fear of "retribution" by those that were so angry.  Even still I don't believe the responses reached the thousands.  So, to suggest that "everyone" is complaining is either misinformed or disingenuous.

Secondly, your example is poorly researched.  We are not talking about an interpretation of the GNU GPL.  If an interpretation at all it is an interpretation of copyright law -- specifically what constitutes a derived work.  The Joomla! team is not suggesting that the GNU GPL is any different than for anyone else.  In fact, the license is quite clear in its language -- the ambiguity of the situation does not derive from the GNU GPL but from copyright law and its varying definitions in varying jurisdictions.

Thirdly, it is true that the Mambo project has stated "officially" that they don't believe extensions are by nature a derived work, but the other example you cite -- PHPBB -- does not feel that way at all. http://www.phpbb.com/mods/documentation ... .php  Further, if you were to do your research, you would find that most other OSCMS systems actually are more in line with what our views are:  Plone, Drupal, Wordpress, etc.

Fourthly, this has nothing to do with how any of us feel.  It has to do with the research and legal advice we have been given.  We did lots of research on the matter and arrived at the conclusions we have about the state of things.  We communicated those things to the greater community, and in some cases did it well, in others not so well.

As a developer I am glad to hear that you are happy to pay for good software, it is encouraging to know



There is nothing in it for you.  Joomla! exists.  It is freely available to use or not.  The freedom of choice is yours, if you find that Joomla! doesn't meet your needs then I sincerely hope you find something that does.  There is nothing radical about our approach to the GNU GPL.  It states what it states ... it has always stated it, and we would like to see people comply with it.



You are welcome, I don't think it was argumenative -- just not as well informed as it could have been.  I suppose though that being uninformed is a great reason to ask questions

Louis

OK, thanks for the response and you are correct that my examples were poorly researched.

What a load of FUD!  But anyway, You are a clever man louis and are very good at spinning a nice story.

At the end of the day you cast out the net and encouraged people to come and join in rejoicing Joomla.  Your changes are dramatic enough to kill the past 6 months worth of work I have been putting into our new website on the side.  So yes it effects me and many others.  The fact that you cover this up with "freedom of choice" is further FUD.  Unfortunately what has happened here is that an agenda has been passed, and Joomla seem to cry foul over everybody else's interpretation of the situation, when it was Joomla who changed theirs.  Secondly I would like to point out that every commercial or non GPL forum and thread I read where a Joomla member (ie Brad and others) rear their heads, they love to say "come talk too us" etc etc.  How about some openness and talking it out in public instead of a spate of forum closures and moving threads to hide what real damage this is really doing too the Joomla community and the hours of pain your decisions are causing honest and once supportive people of this project.  The very people who bug tested and supported the Joomla ideal through the whole project.

How about getting off that crate and giving an apology for not being clear on this in the first place.  For allowing what you see as injustice too the GPL happen so conveniantly for years whilst Joomla built its way.

Sorry but this has cost me my personal TIME and MONEY in an area that I make nothing back and are trying to build a community.  Unfortunately that freedom of choice now comes with a hefty price and setback.

Nothing you say, not FUD you type Louis is going to change that fact that it was Joomla's most drastic move in its history that has affected its future.

But hey, let the FUD wagon continue. 

If this does get sorted and a way is developed for 3pds to come on board again, i'll post you a public apology as obviously something was being worked on.  But until then it is all FUD until something is shown in public.

[mod note: removed personal attack]

Regards,

.Joel

How is saying that the GNU GPL states what it states, has always stated it and we would like to see people comply with it spread fear uncertainty or doubt?  Unless you fear a document that you will very likely have read before you started developing on the platform?  If anything I should think that statement subdues uncertainty and doubt.



My changes?  Which changes are those?  If casting out a net means I have supported the Joomla! statement that we would like people to comply with our license then yes ... I have cast out a net.  If encouraging people to join in rejoicing Joomla! you mean that I have attended events and shown people what our software can do and how it can help them ... then yes, I have done that too.

I see no reason why any of that should put an end to six months of work you have put into a "website on the side" ... If anything is FUD, that sounds like it to me.

I have covered nothing up with freedom of choice... I have simply stated the everyone has the freedom (right) to use Joomla! or not.  Actually that is only one of the freedoms the GNU GPL affords them.

You are mistaken about agenda ... unless you mean that our collective agenda was to increase awareness and compliance with our license.  This again, sounds an awful lot like the very FUD you are accusing me of.  As for crying foul ... we have simply stated our opinion and suggested individual developers seek legal advice when needed.  That also, doesn't sound like an agenda or crying foul.

We have done a lot of "talking out in public" ... it isn't a negotiation though.  We have informed of our decision to continue as we always have ... releasing Joomla! under the GNU GPL;  we have stated our intent to get to a point where we  can release the Joomla! framework separately under the GNU LGPL; and we have stated our belief that most extensions are derivative works of Joomla!.

I am quite aware of pain suffered due to misunderstanding of the decision to stick with the GNU GPL.  It has stifled my work and in so many other ways my entire life.  It has caused undue pain to lots of good friends as well.  There is no hiding it and you suggesting that moving threads around is an attempt at that just shows your lack of understanding -- which is unfortunate.

We do, however still have a great number of people bug testing and fixing bugs and all of the other things that make Joomla! great.  I am not sure what you mean by the "Joomla ideal" but we are moving on.  The project is still churning and we will continue to make good things happen



I am not on a crate ... its a funny visualization though I suppose.  I do apologize for our original message not being as clear as it could have been; and I will also apologize for the undue pain and suffering so many have gone through based on fear, uncertainty and doubt.  The latter sentence however is not something I can or will apologize for. 

I do not see any of this as an injustice to the GNU GPL.  My allegiances are not with the GNU GPL but with the Joomla! project.  The license is simply that, a license.  It affords everyone equal rights and gives us all the freedoms to run, copy, modify and distribute just as we have been given those rights.



It cost me a great deal of personal time and money as well.  I am also an unpaid volunteer so I know what it is like to give between 40 and 50 hours a week to something with no renumeration.  All freedoms usually come with a price ... that is just a fact of life.  I, however disagree with you that the price in this case is a hefty one and that the setback is large.  It doesn't have to be.  Naturally it is OK that we disagree, thats why they make chocolate and vanilla



I think the most drastic move was actually creating Joomla! to begin with ... but to each his own right?  As for the FUD references ... its a shame you seem to be both very bitter and very mistaken about what I have said.  A personal suggestion though would be for you to find something that makes you happy.  It seems that Joomla! is not doing it for you at the moment and we should all volunteer and work with things that make us happy as much as possible.



I have no need for an apology.  There will likely be some people who don't develop for Joomla! in the future ... there will likely be some who start that don't currently.  As with everything there is an ebb and a flow.

Also,  to all ... this forum is not about lashing out or anything of that nature ... that time has past.  I suggest before posting in this particular forum you read the stickies and notes about its purpose.  It is time to move on ... if that means not with Joomla!, I am sad to see you go but so be it.  Otherwise, genuine questions about Joomla! and its license will be answered as best we can.  Specific enquiries are still best sent to license AT joomla DOT org.

Louis

Joel -

Not everyone likes the GPL but that is Joomla!'s license and we are going to respect that.

I am certain you can find a project better suited for your needs,
Amy

Let's keep this thread on the original topic--as posted by deputyjones-- and replies that are closely related to it.

Removed topic that was not consistent with the original topic of the discussion. As was said by mcsmom - Keep the thread on topic.

I'm deleting this post since it was personal and off topic.

mcsmom

Well that was a bit harsh mate... I was only correcting Amy? Sheesh...

Ok I will be a good boy and reply to the OP as well...



It is not about being afraid, it's about following the license. I am in complete agreement of the fact that you cannot transfer/integrate GPL licensed IP to NON-GPL licensed IP. If a developer wishes to integrate NON-GPL code with GPL code they must adhere to the aspiration of this paragraph of the GPL:

If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them as separate works.

Using this avenue it is possible to deploy commercial, ENCODED code with Joomla!, but you need to be very careful about the way you do it. I have explored this at length in my Simplified NON-GPL deployment pattern thread:
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,186705.0.html



It is my opinion that Joomla did not really understand properly the nature of the GPL when it was first deployed from the fork. After learning about the GPL it became evident to them that the current method of deploying non-gpl, proprietary code was illegal. I feel that it was basically initial ignorance of the GPL that bought about this problem - any alternative reason would be unthinkable. I feel you should stick around as there are good things coming for those that wish to purchase Industrial grade extensions.



You are very much welcome, and like I said - Don't worry, just be patient - commercial development is not going to stop, it's just in a transit state - think of the moth (my gosh I am foggy today!) caterpillar turning into the butterfly 

-Lobos