Joomla! Discussion Forums

merged threads from eyezberg and phil_roy into original topic.

Joe I am not trying to confuse what you say.  I am trying to clarify the distinction.  If you meant that unencrypted non-GPL extensions are modifiable, then say so.  Don't blanket all with the modifiable note, because it simply isn't true.  When you look at the jcd-a rules the way they were, it simply said you have to believe that encryption is right

http://jcd-a.org/content/view/13/30/ (this has also been edited recently to add more clarification from my last visit)

Also note this:

http://jcd-a.org/content/view/16/35/ (which is also rather new, I hadn't noticed this change nor did I notice an announcement of this change, but that could very well be my overlooking it)

So you have a lot of very worthy statements going on, and in the second link, a lot of things pointed out that should be business 101 to most business people. And I applaud the effort that is being done to create some sort of code of conduct for 3PDs.  In my mind it is way long overdue.  Kudos to Vince for stepping up to the plate and taking a stand.

The facts of the matter is .. I have removed more wall of shame posts than I care to count regarding the issue of 3PDs that haven't lived up to those statements, and on top of all that people cannot modify their code to get it to work, and they cannot get their money back, nor hire someone else to fix it.  It is a reality, and a harsh one, but one that needs to be brought out truthfully nonetheless.

I respect you and your opinion on these matters.  You are a long standing member of the community, and I know you have the community's best interests at heart.  The issue lies in the fact that the majority of 3PDs  DO fall within the realm of this conversation.  The issue is the ones that do not, and that is why the community needs to be protected.  If I thought that 3PDs were policing themselves to better their position and protect not only their own interests, but the interests of the community, we would not have a need to discuss this.  I hope the jcd-a is something on a positive road towards this goal.

Please make the distinction, that is all I ask.  Be fair and truthful about it.  Encrypted extensions exist, and there is a movement to promote encrypted extensions.  This in harmful to the community, to everyone, 3PDs included.

Thank you for listening to me.

I've been following along here, and at this point everyone is more interested in the debate than the actual question.  Eric, you have a reasonable question, and you're right, you have not gotten a definitive response from the team regarding the issue (mine was merely a speculative opinion from what I've read, but in no way the answer that gives you any assurances).

So the question stands, and is still unanswered.

Will the team eventually write code that will allow developers to license their software how they want (GPL or nonGPL)?  Seems a valid question to me.

Yes there has been response from the team regarding this issue.






So is it a perfect answer that fixes all problems.  No.  But it is something that can be worked with.  The work just has to be done.

Vince - Do not allow Joe's attempt to generalize EVERYTHING infect how you read my posts. I am not and do not demonize ALL P3PDs, thier products or ethics. I don't lump them all into a single group in a single conspiracy the way some people are doing on the other side. When I have made statements that seem generalized I attempt to put in a side note or a brief clarification that not ALL P3PDs are guilty of the things I said. I'm not trying to paint with a large brush here. I am not singling out any specific P3PDs because I am trying not to get personal with those persons and get the point accross without making a personal judgement about them. these people may just be misinformed and once they get informed may see where their past statements were in error or wrong.

IE:


You see I'm being very careful to not target any one P3PD and when I make a statement I attempt (and maybe I miss a few) to reiterate that this does not apply to all!
As you know I spent the first month of this issue looking for solutions and methods to allow P3PDs to ply their trade. I even ignored the many FUD posts hoping that more intelligent posts would shine through and show them how the hysteria was unwarranted and unproductive. I think I got that message accross pretty effectively in my posts (see: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,188585.0.html)

My Tirades of late regrding P3PDs has to do with a situation you are well aware of...an Email sent out by someone from the JCD-A trying to blackmail and scare more people into the JCD-A fold. Safety in Numbers. I don't hold the members of JCD-A responsible as a group for this it was the action of a sole shooter. I have not named this shooter so that maybe his temporary insanity will clear and he will see the light and rejoin our community and I don't want to stigmatize any individual in the community.

Joe - I won't bother feeding the trolls...

the fun has been gone for you for going on 2 years now. I can't think of a single thing the teams have done that satisfied you in all that time. You don't like the communication, you don't like how fast the websites get updated you don't like when the roadmap is wrong for even an hour and you simply hate how this project is run. If you are representing this project to the french speaking people of this world then I fear anyone who is french speaking only won't run this project at all they way you have been portraying it. They must think that the J! Devs are all amateurs and don't care about their users because time and time again you have made these insinuations here. Wars have been started due to bad translators.

to the subject at hand:
We need to get past the FUD and misinformation...
I attempted early on to squash some of these myths but there are more people spreading them than there are proving them wrong.

1 - Joomla isn't denying anyone from releasing a Derivative project under a Proprietary license the GPL (Gnu/FSF) is...
2 - Joomla Devs have made statements that they MIGHT be able to provide an answer for those who are willing to wait for it. They have to work on their timetable not someone elses (much to Joe's chagrin) If you need a faster solution then either work on one yourself or help the J! Devs to speed up their attempt to make it happen.
3 - Proprietary code and GPL code are made by the SAME TYPE of People, Some good (REALLY GOOD) and some BAD! Doesn't matter that they make a few bucks in their spare non REGULAR JOB time or give that time freely to a GPL Community project! I suppose the contractors who do the important work rebuilding New Orleans for free or at cost are all amateurs because they don't get paid much? I can pay a plumber $10,000 but that doesn't mean that just because I paid him he is the best available. I could find someone who would do it for free (and who could make 11,000 in the private sector) simply because he loves to do it and he could be just as good as the guy I paid. I would say the folks who bring us Joomla (which is GPL) is every bit as good as someone who brings us a proprietary product. To generalize in this regard is a sin. People are individuals and their skll level isn't based on how much they get paid. If anything it is the opposite. And I'm willing to bet that if Jinx or Louis were to walk into a software house with two AVERAGE proprietary coders that Johan and Louis would win the Job! They just happen to be the guys coding Joomla and to demean them becuase they don't REQUIRE payment is just plain out wrong and ungrateful!
4 - The Joomla license has NOT changed. Not one piece of the J! 1.5 license is different than the J!.0x License as we speak. to claim that Joomla took something away you never really had before is FUD! they tried to give you something you never had before but realized they actually had no right to give it to you. Just because the many P3PDs had little to no issue violating a GPL license doesn't mean it is fair to chastise Joomla for not doing the same. You have your priorities and Joomla has theirs. Theirs happens to be they want to use GPL code in building Joomla. Yours is your wallet (is that true for all P3PDs? Hardly!)
5 - Some would have us believe that the restriction is on ALL Commercail products that work with Joomla. this is a scare tactic meant to scare you into thinking all people who paid for a product will be hurt. NOT the case at all...Commercial GPL is perfectly legal!
6 - In the same vein as #5 there has been an attempt to scare users to believe they have to remove the extentions they bought previously. This is even Fuddier than the rest as they have a right to use anything they have bought, will buy and can buy in the furute. Once they buy it they are free to use that product forever! Even if that project should be challenged in court the worst that could happen to a user is they get a copy of the source code and the developer stops supporting his client. And the latter would be due to a lack of caring by the developer not the fact that Joomla forced them to stop distribution or GPL the project.
7 - People keep claiming the Devs have not made a clear statement. They have. VERY CLEAR if you take it on an individual basis. you want them to speak with one voice but I would remind the P3PDs (and users) that neither of you can speak with a single voice either...Some P3PDs (like You Vince/Vimes) have been quite reasonable yet some guys like Barrie have gone off the deep end. The one statement that has been made by Joomla/OSM as a group is also quite clear and I have reiterated them time and time again. They don't intend to prosecute, they don't intend to enforce, they are meraly pointing out they can't make things better quickly for P3PDs and if you can wait for V2 they might be able to help. Until then you are on your own as you have always been!
8 - People want a clear definition of what is derivative and what is not. It's like asking someone to define what is a good law and what is a bad one. Can't be done and even when it is done (in a court of Law) the answer can quickly change the next time it comes up. you have to determine for yourself by your own means what is a derivative of Joomla and what is not. And be prepared to back up that view in a court of Law. No one can reassure you one way or the other not even your own lawyer! this is why the patent and copyright offices have over 10,000 employees and there are thousands of courts spread out across the globe!
9 - threats to move to another CMS have been made. I have mentioned time and time again how this is an empty threat. If you feel that is what you need to do and will work for you then I wish you best of luck. I think you will probably have to write extentions for ACME CMS since ACME CMS is about the only CMS that isn't GPL and has the same GPL restrictions on proprietary license that J! has. IF you think you can maintain your market and profitablility with a project used by about 5 people total then go ahead. All the popular CMS systems are GPL and are in no better position to legalize the proprietary license practice than J! is.
10 - threats to fork Joomla are also empty. Any fork must also be GPL which pretty much leaves you where you are now but with a much bigger burden of having to support and improve that GPL project on your own! I would suggest it is better to work WITH J! to make the changes you feel you can make to legalize the prprietary license release.

Now I suggest to the P3PDs that the fud emails, misinformation and scare tactics stop. If you have not done this and you are a P3PDs please remove yourself from that sentence since the shoe doesn't fit. If you decide to wear that shoe then it will be YOU who accused you of such things not me!
I have identified some of the FUD that has been going around. I have also in other posts given solutions to the issue at hand. But they will never become reality if you spend all your time trying to hustle other developers for their Source or making posts trying to scare users. Remember if a solution should ever materialize that works for both GPL and proprietary in regards to Joomla you will have scared away potential customers with all this fud!

So in every turn, every scare, every threat I feel the P3PDs (the ones who are making them mind you) are cutting off their nose to spite their face!
If you want a solution then help to make a solution. Better use of time than making problems!

Thats all I'm going to say in this thread.

An LGPL license for the framework may solve the problem some developers feel they have.
As to


I think as in any open source project, the team is you. There is a system in place to submit patches or proposed improvements, there is a system in place to make feature requests, there is a system in place that lets you write and distribute a core hack. Nothing is preventing any company from assigning its developers to write what they think they need and then offer it to the core.  I'd suggest that people who are really concerned about this issue get to work on it. Don't sit around saying "you must do this for me,"  "but do you promise to take it if I do it?" or blackmailing "If you don't do this I'll leave" or other common patterns discussed so well in the Poison People video.

As to where on the list of priorities this is for the core team (who are far from the only people contributing code) either as individuals or as a collectivity, that is a different question. I haven't seen a lot in the last 3 months that particularly would motivate developers to prioritize helping 3pds over developing ACL or dealing with some other issues.  On the whole,in my life,  I usually don't find name calling ("communist" "fundamentalist"), blackmailing ("if you don't do what I want, I will go elsewhere" "I will fork your project")  or issuing demands ("if I write this, no matter what, you MUST include it" "give me a yes or no answer this instant") is a particularly effective strategy for getting what I want. Usually what I do when I want something is either do it myself or put together a team of people who want to work on it.Or I work hard to convince people to agree with me. I also find it is better to be a consensus builder than a "my way or the highway" advocate. All the blackmailing, demanding, and insisting does is force the people you are trying to convince into thinking that attempts to work with you are more trouble than they will be worth.

I've recommended the Poison People video before, and I'd really ask people to self-examine the extent to which they are acting in any of the ways described. Projects need to protect themselves from poison people or they will die. Are you someone who has acted in  a poison way? Or in contrast, have you been a positive contributor?

• Have you refrained from name calling and making  excessive demands on the community's time?
• Have you been unfailingly polite, read all of the materials before posting, made sure not to post the same thing that has already been asked and answered, and avoided making demands on others?
  
• ]Have you taken on the actual work of the Joomla! project (for example by answering questions in the forum, volunteering for a work group, writing documentation, reporting well documented bugs, submitting patches or making good feature requests)?
  

Right now, honestly, most of the development working group is working hard on getting 1.5 RC out. I see from ohloh that there have bee 47 commits in between July 14 and the time of  this post.  This discussion is nothing but a big distraction from that, and as effective people who get things done, the developers are avoiding this discussion as much as they can. No, they are not going to have a team meeting this week to discuss whether they will consider a hypothetical fix that might or might not be feasible.

Looking at the bug tracker, I see that what they have done is to eliminate all the priority 1 bugs from 1.5 and are down to 3 priority 2 bugs.  Personally, I would rather have those resolved and tested than to bring the team together for a week long discussion of the technical and legal issues possibly involved in one or another of the possible technical solutions to the problems proprietary developers believe exist. Other people obviously feel that development on 1.5 should cease and instead everyone should  work exclusively on a project that Johan has already said is very large and complex and that others have said will not provide a solution for all of the proprietary developers. I do not. I say, if you want this, roll up your sleeves and start working on it. It's a risk, yes, but so is everything.

Well, while this is one view, please also remember that two important things did change:
1) Joomla reversed its stance to proprietary extensions, that is, they have stated that most extensions should be licensed under the GPL to be compliant w/ J!'s license, and;
2) For a while, the following text was added to the license.



So a lot of what you are calling FUD sometimes does have a foundation - a drastic change has been made.  The license has been changed twice and the interpretation of any version of these licenses has been hotly debated.  I don't think that I need to describe how this worked, do I...? 

I hope that this clarification helps.

tcp

--edit Louis corrected me on this.  Well, a good example about how confusion can spread FUD.  Thanks Louis.

Actually Toby, that text was added to the license when the original rider was added.  Go check your SVN logs.  It was left in inadvertently when the rider was removed.  When brought to my attention I corrected it and even noted the date it was added in the SVN commit log.

Don't make it sound like a rider was removed and that was added, this is not the case at all.

Louis

Thanks, as always, mcsmom, for a little breath of fresh air and clarity.  Agreed.  Unfortunately the motivation for some developers is the money and not the community, as we have all seen or heard about. I just wanted to draw attention back to the fact that eric's question wasn't really being addressed.

I would say it's been answered appropriately now.  Twice.

TCP - I understand your distinction and I will have to break my promise to not say anymore in this thread to clarify further...


Did they really have a stance before now as to what license you could release extentions under? There was a group conciousness that pretty much said we don't care! We don't have problems with P3PD projects. That stance hasn't changed really...they still don't have problems with P3PD projects "In GENERAL"...
You can't have a reversal on a stance until a first stance is made. I don't believe ther was ever an official STANCE on any of this. They just concerned themselves with code not license. The subject of what is allowed under the license has never really come up till now. Proprietary projects have never been despised, limited or looked down upon by the Joomla/OSM folks ever. And I don't see them changing their attitude here now. If it had changed then there would be NO ATTEMPT to work on a solution and no hint that a possible solution might be possible when V2 comes out. So the stance hasn't changed at all...Neither has the licence. all that has happened is that P3PDs were reminded about the strict interpretations that can be made in regards to GPL and how despite how they feel about a P3PD's work, they are not safe from and they can not assure them that other people who own GPL code Joomla uses will feel the same way. That is not so much a change but a reminder or a caution


That was in a beta....and the problem is even without that statement the GPL implies this already. This fud is being based on an SVN release not an OFFICIAL STABLE product. And the FUD of this SVN of an as of yet unreleased product is being used to make a case for all of the J1.0X proprietary products which NEVER had any additions to the license and is the same as it was the day it was released in J! 1.0. Most every P3PD project that has an issue here is a 1.0X project. It may work in 1.5 but who really can say until 1.5 is actully 1.5 and not SVN or Beta2? the attempts to scare users are aimed at 1.0X clients since no one should be running 1.5 live. So why does what is said in a BETA LICENSE being applied to ALL of Joomla?

It's like claiming a table with only blue papers has Green and when someone says show me the green they go to a table with green paper take one piece and throw it on the blue table...Saying HERE...PROOF...

Yes an attempt to add a rider was made...It was to HELP not hurt these P3PDs...Goes against the arguments being made by the FUDSlingers and the only time it ever gets mentioned is in trying to prove some change has occurred. The attempt to change was made but not in the direction that is being fudded. And when it was pointed out that there was no authority to make that change we went back to square one....the attempt failed, it didn't work. That is not because the attitude or stance of the developers has changed but because the change that was attempted was not the solution. There are better solutions out there. And if the P3PDs would stop wasting their time throwing the FUD and worked on those solutions then TRUE CHANGE is possible....
Change for the better!

Not exactly. Just when I had started to post bug reports for SVN again and was ready to get some tutorials up on my site (must be 2 or 3 months ago now -already), this GPL death thread started to get worse and worse, and there was no Core dev in sight to answer any of the pressing questions at hand for quite some time I just spent quite some time rereading it to confirm this.
I don't like the lack of timely communication which was caried over from Mambo.
I do like all the rest, even these word-fights with you Mike, a good argument is nice from time to time
I think the core dev's are great dev's, and know their thing inside out, and probably spend more time here than they should trying to get 1.5 finally out after 2 years of waiting. Maybe for Joomlas 2nd birthday?
I think that they should not have to answer posts about GPL, that should be left for their legal council to do, as it would have a lot more meaning and authority than any of the IANAL opinions here.
I think there should be a dedicated team to communicate stuff, and answer important points with Core input, they shouldn't have to be bothered with this (even if it doesn't bother them -does it?). Joomla just got way too big for them to run and contribute to everything here: the blogs, the forums, the legal issues, attending various events etc etc... Website updating and roadmap are both also part of this. Speaking of which: if the roadmap had a few more simple milestones and those were really followed, it wouldn't need as many updates and modifications.. Feature creep?
I have never made insinuations that core devs are amateurs (see above), but I do think they care more about their code than the rest. I said more, only.

You forgot to post those GPL equivalents of the example extensions (just 4 to start with) I provided on your request?!

Ok Joe because I feel the need to be a pain in your butt...

Jomres  - http://www.freehotelsoftware.com/
Tags - Typo3... GPL, has tag functionality...
Tree....Post Nuke suuports this type of function...all are GPL.

Bad example.

AFAICS that's a limited version of their paid property management system (rather different from Jomres's featureset, for a start you'd have serious trouble trying to integrate that into Joomla)

You'd be better off quoting something like Solunas (http://extensions.joomla.org/component/ ... Itemid,35/) however that's also a really poor argument to fight your corner with. Before I even started on Mosres (as it was back in those days) Solunas was pretty limited and (sorry Marc) downright ugly. As far as I can see it hasn't changed significantly in the 2+ years since. On the bright side, it does have a Joomla connector (which has never worked, as far as I've seen, it's always gone to a blank page)

Merged 1 thread started by Vimes and 1 thread started by Asphyx with original topic. 

You're right.  Thanks for the clarification.  Sorry.

tcp

In fairness it was an incredibly incredibly unfortunate paragraph to overlook given the ongoing debate, and people should be rightly excused for inferring something from it. The prompt removal of the paragraph should reassure everyone that this was just an oversight and not to read too much into it.

There's still clearly open hostility within our community and we have to work through it.

There are some proprietary developers who believe they are no longer wanted in the community, and whose livelihood is threatened. They also love Joomla and are having a hard time letting go. No wonder they are bitter, and say they are going but can't help keep coming back. They are the ones with the most invested interest in fixing the technical problem, and unlike some of the vocal minority - a track record of developing solutions.

Proprietary 3PDs are welcome within the Joomla community.

Lets remember this. Anyone who thinks otherwise, however vocal, are a minority that don't represent the Joomla community.

Many people have done and said things during this debate, thinking they are talking on behalf of the community, but they weren't. Likewise others have done and said things based on their belief that the values of the community have changed, but they haven't.

The only thing that has changed in this community is because of the actions of people who thought the community had changed.

To heal the community we need to have the ability to forgive many of words said and actions taken during this confusion, and look towards the positive things that have come out of it:

1. Joomla has affirmed it's commitment and accordance to GPL.
2. The implied position of Joomla to proprietary developers has been clarified.
3. The JCD-A was formed: 3PDs now have a code of conduct and expected professional behaviour. It's not perfect, but is a good start.
4. Many people who were either silent or non-contributory (such as myself), have become actively involved in the Joomla community.
5. The whole debate has spawned a lot of interesting development activity. I'm particularly intrigued by the Zend frameworks, cross-CMS plug-ins, LGPL APIs, etc that are being proposed. And since these are coming from people who don't normally develop Joomla, this is additional activity on the project that wouldn't be happening otherwise. Necessity is the mother of invention, and Joomla can be performing some influential trail-breaking development here, if we can avoid the negative and destructive attitudes.

So please, lets focus on healing and moving forward!

So very well said erickendrick.  Thank you for summing it all up, and getting to the point of what the future can hold if we as a community work together.

Nice post, Eric! Excellent advice and direction; you leadership is much appreciated. 

Amy

I saw that and was heartened, and Vince is doing a great thing.  Unfortunately from looking on the JCD-A forums (at least the public ones) from the response from one prominent member, it does not look like a code of conduct and expected professional behavior is wanted, or should be even taken into account, and that is truly sad.  I really believe that 3PDs would benefit greatly from having a sense of community where they help and support each other, and also prevent their collective image from being hurt by those that act inappropriately.  The acts of a few can have a devastating effect on the whole. 

As my sig says