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SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=425&t=194762		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  AzzX [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
While I appreciate all the points raised in previous threads, there is a couple of issues and questions that have not been properly addressed.

What happens the existing users of the two available smf bridges and what are the alternatives.
Remember that Fireboard is not even stable.

In terms of the gpl is phpbb3 ok to bridge?

Is the Joomla gpl different from say that of e107 and why/how?

Why should users stick with Joomla given the lack of respect Joomla has shown its user base in regards to this very issue.  It surely cannot be that hard to resolve.
Author:  tjay [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:11 am ]
Post subject:  RE SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
Quote:
While I appreciate all the points raised in previous threads, there is a couple of issues and questions that have not been properly addressed.

What happens the existing users of the two available smf bridges and what are the alternatives.
Remember that Fireboard is not even stable.

In terms of the gpl is phpbb3 ok to bridge?

Is the Joomla gpl different from say that of e107 and why/how?

Why should users stick with Joomla given the lack of respect Joomla has shown its user base in regards to this very issue.  It surely cannot be that hard to resolve.


What happens? Well there are several possibilities, but if no bridge exists there are many ways to use both programs on the same website. before there were copper mine or Gallery bridges that did not stop people from using them if they need it. Take this site for example, it works fine.

Not sure about the phpbb3 bridge but if it is GPL then it should be just fine.

Not familiar withe e107

Why should users stick with Joomla? Well I hate to break the news to you, but many successful websites exist without a forum at all. Users will continue to use Joomla because it allows them to do the work they need to do on websites. It has good community backing that will not go away because a SMF bridge does not exist.

With all due respect no one has disrespected you by licensing under GPL, that is a reactionary position you are taking over one small aspect  of a very large project.

Besides the efforts to resolve the problem are not Joomla's alone. SMF and other developing teams have to work at it too. And it is work.  GPL is not for everyone, but it is for Joomla, have you posted on their site claiming disrespect because they wont solve your problem?
Author:  AzzX [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
tjay wrote:

With all due respect no one has disrespected you by licensing under GPL, that is a reactionary position you are taking over one small aspect  of a very large project.

Besides the efforts to resolve the problem are not Joomla's alone. SMF and other developing teams have to work at it too. And it is work.  GPL is not for everyone, but it is for Joomla, have you posted on their site claiming disrespect because they wont solve your problem?


The disrespect comes from the alienation of the many users of the two bridges, see the site showcase on smf for an idea of the amount of users involved.  Joomla created the problem as I see it, both bridges existed in perfect harmony for years before the Joomla gpl announcement which did not take into account the many possible repercussions.

Because of this fact, you have to be wary bridging or integrating any software into Joomla, including phpbb

tjay wrote:

Why should users stick with Joomla? Well I hate to break the news to you, but many successful websites exist without a forum at all. Users will continue to use Joomla because it allows them to do the work they need to do on websites. It has good community backing that will not go away because a SMF bridge does not exist.


The effects go well beyond that of the smf bridge, the bridge is a popular example of the current situation.
It is clearly evident that Joomla is a great cms but breaking functionality that existed two months ago and claiming that "successful websites exist without a forum" is just a cop out in regards to the issue.
Author:  aoirthoir [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
http://www.phpbb.com/downloads/license/

Unless I am missing something, phpBB uses the GNU GPL. In this case, there is absolutely no issue integrating it with Joomla.
Author:  tjay [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:11 am ]
Post subject:  RE SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
We will have to agree to disagree, if I had the time I could post some hard numbers supporting the argument that MOST websites do not even have a forum. Most Community Sites do, but all Sites are not Community Sites.

With 3 entire posts on this forum and spreading the news about your third post other places, I wonder what it is your trying to solve?
Do you not think this has been discussed before? try the search function.

PHPBB3 looks really good, I had not visited there in a while.
BB2 there is
http://cbconnector.com/
* @version $Id: phpbbconnector.php,v 1.9 2006/01/08 20:19:15 hamster189 Exp $
* @package Community Builder
* @subpackage phpBB connector for CB 1.0 RC2
* @copyright (C) gatenet.nl, and Greg Effland
* @license http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html GNU/GPL
Author:  AzzX [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
I have been beta testing the http://cbconnector.com/ beta 5 and it shows great potential, geeffland has done an awesome job!

I might be coming across a bit harsh in regards to my questions and opinions on the matter but this is my situation. 
I had a Joomla with the Joomlahacks <> smf installed on my server locally about 6 months ago - slowly building up the site offlineline in my spare time, creating what could be a useful and enjoyable community site.  A shared user system with a powerful forum script and CMS was the most important aspect in choosing the Joomla and Smf combo.  After messing around with theming and the like I signed up with Rocketthemes to see how the pros do it.  You can learn a lot just by modifying a pro theme like those on RT.  In fact the whole process has been a great learning experience.  Both bridges being removed was just a kick in the guts after dedicating so much time on it.  I know it is now a harsh reality, but still worry that continuing on a different path with Joomla will be susceptible to similar issues.

Reading all the threads in regards to the gpl answers none of my original questions, the smf team have stated there is nothing else they can do, and can only offer users to change cms's that have the bridge.

Ironically a smf bridge is something I would pay for  ;)
Author:  Roman Blanty [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
e107 is also GPL so they have the same problem with SMF bridge if they have any, and even if they don't realize that there is a problem they will sooner or later be in the same position as Joomla! is now. Same thing applies to all GPL CMSes.

The key to resolve this problem lays solely in the hands of SMF. There are possibilities they could consider and only they have the power to make them happen (since there are developers available who would code any solution could bridge both systems).

@AzzX: I understand your anger but the address is wrong. Furthermore expressing it on SMF forums will do nothing good, so, if you can, please don't. It might be a good idea to check on their motivation.

If you have a few minutes you might want to read: "Make Your Open Source Software GPL-Compatible. Or Else." this might clear some things ;) (especially the part about XFree86)
I'm not saying at all that releasing SMF on GPL is the only solution SMF could consider.
Author:  vancanneyt [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
there is one bridge left (http://www.elearningforce.biz/bridges/j ... ridge.html), commercial component but they update it to be compatible with 1.0.13. do they violate the gpl as wel or not?
Author:  Roman Blanty [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
If by commercial you mean non-GPL then this sole fact leads to GPL violation.
In the part of violating GPL by combining GPL'd Joomla with non-GPL-compatible SMF the answer is not that simple but probably also yes, and most probably both licenses Joomla!'s and SMF's.
Author:  vancanneyt [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
thanks for the awnser ;)

joomlahacks is working on compatibility for 1.0.13, i guess this violates GPL as wel?

i don't understand people would go back to mambo, it's also gpl and violates it there also; i call this running away from a problem :p

other question, Vbulletin bridge, Vbulletin is commercial so briding is also not possible?

longlive fireboard i guess :p
Author:  Roman Blanty [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
There is also good old phpBB :)

And you are right running to Mambo doesn't solve a thing.
Author:  AzzX [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
e107's take on the gpl is interesting:
http://e107.org/e107_plugins/forum/foru ... 15778.post
as is phpbb's take on v3 of the gpl:
http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopi ... l#p3136963

Since joomla is covered by version 3 of the license and phpbb3 is only covered by version 2 of the License http://phpbb.cvs.sourceforge.net/phpbb/ ... 23&r2=1.24 does this allow for two different interactions from the two different licenses?

Reading a few posts on the phpbb forums it appears this is not the case at all, but these are only opinions.
Its actually quite interesting reading about all this stuff.
Author:  Roman Blanty [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
v3 and v2 are incompatible because GPL2 says that derivative work has to have same license. There is an article written by Richard Stallman which makes it clear:

When we say that GPLv2 and GPLv3 are incompatible, it means there is no legal way to combine code under GPLv2 with code under GPLv3 in a single program. This is because both GPLv2 and GPLv3 are copyleft licenses: each of them says, “If you include code under this license in a larger program, the larger program must be under this license too.” There is no way to make them compatible. We could add a GPLv2-compatibility clause to GPLv3, but it wouldn't do the job, because GPLv2 would need a similar clause.

Joomla! is licensed on GNU GPL v2 (see license.php)
Author:  aoirthoir [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
Azzx,

Joomla! uses GNU GPL version 2.

Yes GPLv2 and GPLv3 are incompatible. The only option someone has, is if one of the programs states "Version 2 or any later version". In which case two programs can be made compatible, basically via a fork into the v3 territory by a developer that wishes to make the one program compatible with her v3 program.

However, I state again Joomla! is not under version 3 of the GNU GPL. It is GPLv2. (Perhaps GPLv2 or later. I've been unable to determine.)
Author:  AzzX [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
Only reason I ask is that the Joomla Open Source Does Matter ... press page links to version 3 of the gpl.
http://www.joomla.org/content/view/3510/1

Quote:
What license does Joomla! use?

The GNU General Public License. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html
Within the context of this FAQ, "GNU GPL" and "GPL" refer to the GNU General Public License.


So a phpbb3 bridge should be safe.  Edit: removed incorrect phpbb licensing info 

Its really difficult understanding the concepts involved with so many interpretations and differences.  Thanks for the info guys.
Author:  mcsmom [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
I think that what happened is that the link was made to the current license, and when the statement was made, the current license was v2.

Thanks for pointing that out.
Author:  aoirthoir [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
MCSmom, yes. The link to the GPL on the GNU site or the FSF site will take a user to the latest version of the GPL, not necessarily the one in use by a project. This works if you have the "or later" statement, or if you do not mention the version number it is released under. In which case the distributer may choose any version of the GPL (even version 1).
Author:  mcsmom [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
Okay, the link has been changed. Thanks for pointing that out.
Author:  Asphyx [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
Quote:
What happens the existing users of the two available smf bridges and what are the alternatives.
Remember that Fireboard is not even stable.


Well lets try to answer your question in this manner...

Has the lack of a bridge for SMF hurt your ability to post about that lack of bridge on this SMF forum run with Joomla?
Has SMF stopped working because there is no bridge here?

Obviously not!

This instance of SMF is not bridged to Joomla yet it seems to function just fine doesn't it?
That should answer your question...

If SMF truly wanted to bridge the two there are much better ways to do it other than modifying Joomla to connect to SMF...SMF could just as easily be modified to operate with Joomla data or even better a GPLed component that was installed into Joomla that tapped into SMf datastructure (which is not copyright or licensed) to pull pieces of information that was to be displayed by Joomla would solve all the problems. The Forum would operate as a stand alone program (because it can) the GPL program would merely read or write to the database and when people wanted to go to the actual forum they would use the standalone forum directly via a URL which does not constitute a programming linkage. No combination of SMF and Joomla just a few simple routines to read the data that the standalone program has created. thats not cobining programs it is sharing data. and totally legal!

How would this translate to other proprietary works? Well if they don't need any Joomla code to operate but merely read the data of that program then they are safe from prosecution. If they wish to do it the other way and put the read write share code into Joomla they can GPL that code and since you would need to buy the standalone program to create the data in the first place they don't lose any marketshare of their product. Distributing a program that is useless without some major component doesn't matter.
Software drivers are free because they are useless unless you have the hardware it works with.

The LGPL bridge option I think is legal. I believe FSF has it wrong on that score...
But that said there are so many ways to combine two programs that are unrelated to sharing code. It is the data that needs to be shared that is of utmost important. It isn't the code in the SMF bridge that is all that important in sharing the logins. It is the data saved in that SMF database that is the key to shared login. The code just facilitates that sharing. It could easily be GPLed and would have no effect on SMF's marketshare or business model. Same goes for VBull which actually is proprietary.
they could write a code that reads data from the VBull configuration and then uses that data to read the Vbull database. you don't HAVE to use Vbull code to do that. Don't need to use Joomla code to do that either...
Bridges usually try to share functions of both programs when they combine...
But if you ask me it is probably better to simply share data not code. Data isn't licensed at all. And with no shared code there is no combination of code!

Problem of derivation and protected marketshare solved!
Author:  vancanneyt [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
alternitive:
- let SMF run standalone without a bridge
- use the forum SSI.php script to build in joomla some modules (like loginform, welcom message, who is online...)

disadvantage:
no users of smf can login on the joomla site
Author:  mcsmom [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
vancanneyt wrote:
alternitive:
- let SMF run standalone without a bridge
- use the forum SSI.php script to build in joomla some modules (like loginform, welcom message, who is online...)

disadvantage:
no users of smf can login on the joomla site



Well, it's not that they can't it is that they need to register and login separately, just like on joomla.org you have to register for forum and extensions separately.
Author:  tjay [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
Quote:
Problem of derivation and protected marketshare solved!

Can I get an AMEN 
Author:  Trijnie [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg921456

Hello all,

The way this GPL is enforced only applies to Joomla!. So please don't talk on behalf of other Projects who have no problem with creating solutions connecting one free project to another, under what license what so ever . Please, check with their policies first before stating conclusions.

Kind regards,

Trijnie
Author:  Asphyx [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
Quote:
alternitive:
- let SMF run standalone without a bridge
- use the forum SSI.php script to build in joomla some modules (like loginform, welcom message, who is online...)

disadvantage:
no users of smf can login on the joomla site


Actually even that can be solved....
The 1.5 API does have some hooks for ACL that would allow you to replace or bypass the standard Joomla ACL to read and write users from and to the SMF database.
If you create your own routine that is GPLed and installed into Joomla that creates accounts in the same format as SMF does there is no sharing of code and therefore no combined work. The database certainly doesn't care who wrote the user only that the writing is performed according to the data structure it expects. You don't need to run the user creation code in SMF to get that. You may need to look at the database to see what it wants and maybe some examination of the code to know what each datatype is used for.

SMf may require more parameters to set security level than Joomla does but those extra parameters do not need to be used by Joomla only need to be built into joomla's write to DB function in the registration system. What is so difficult about making Joomla write a new user with new user privs? Why does SMF AND Joomla need to run confirmation emails?

You do not need to execute createuser.php of SMF(or some other PHP Apps ACL) to format that data properly. even if you did you can easily read the format from a configuration file as was pointed out.

Doesn't matter if you register to SMF or register to Joomla since both will write and read the same table of data to make it's checks. That is enough all by itself you don't need to also share the same routine to do that...merely compatible! Compatible<>Derived.

By the same token this works for things like discussion forums linked to content and calendar systems. Or use of the forum as a comment section. you don't need to send them to the forum software to post a message if you don't want to. Make any simple form that can write a post in the same way the forum would. Save it to the forum DB...the forum software will add it to it's row reads when it goes to read all the threads from the DB.
didn't share any code just a DB.

And this method would allow any proprietary stand alone to work with any CMS not just joomla.
IT's no different than creating a text file and then having PHP parse the text. You don't call to the text editor to read the data in the file PHP reads it directly! It's data that two programs can use and manipulate without having to infringe or use anyone else's code to make work.

That should be the focus of those who truly want to stay proprietary...
Are they willing to do all the work needed to make that happen?
My first guess is no! And that is just plain lazy if you ask me. Maybe the thought that their standalone product could sell to anyone will be enough to inspire them to see why if you REALLY want to make money your better off OWNING everything you sell and what you sell should rely on nothing but itself.

It is better to make your own market than to ride the coattails of someone else's market. And if you make your own market you will have enough control over it to expand it into any other market you see fit! a program like SMF and VBull could easily reconstruct some cross functionality without combinng the code of both or borrowing code across platforms.
they know the datastructure their program uses and it would just be a matter of showing Joomla (via a GPL component) how to hook into their data (as opposed to their code). Two programs joined at the Data...
that is the way to solve every issue we have here!

At the turn of this century the big business question regarding the internet was Content or Infrastructure...What is more important!
Billions were spent on Infrastructure and they all lost their shirt! Content is King!
Infrastructure is meaningless with out the data to go over it!
And in the same vein the code is meaningless without the data. The data is the key to making things work.
Want proof?
Addition is code....Try adding A + B without first knowing what A and B equals!
Error undefined variable!

Doesn't matter if you add A and B  or C and D, what matters is what data defines the variables your trying to add.
And if you define both versions using the same data the result will always be the same!
And you don't need to use the code from A+B to get the same result with C+D...
Just the Data!


Quote:
The way this GPL is enforced only applies to Joomla!. So please don't talk on behalf of other Projects who have no problem with creating solutions connecting one free project to another, under what license what so ever . Please, check with their policies first before stating conclusions.

I will presume you are talking about my mentions of Mambo...
Let me ask you this...If Mambo REALLY wanted to allow proprietary extentions why did they ignore the last statement in the GPL that says if you want to permit linkage with proprietary works use the LGPL instead?
Why isn't Mambo LGPL which is what the P3PDs want Joomla to do in essence?

Is it because they mislicened their code?
Or is it because they couldn't legally do it because they don't own all the code in Mambo and therefore tried to stick their permission and interpretation into a FAQ to cover itself?

If Mambo had the ability to allow Proprietary extentions to link with Mambo they would have simply LGPLed the project...they didn't and there must be a pretty good reason for that don't you think?
Any guess as to what it might be Trinj?
Author:  tjay [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
Quote:
I will presume you are talking about my mentions of Mambo...


Since the link she posted points to my post, I am not sure.
What I am sure of, is any talk of a workable solution seems to be a problem for those who do not want to see one.
Quote:
So please don't talk on behalf of other Projects who have no problem with creating solutions connecting one free project to another, under what license what so ever . Please, check with their policies first before stating conclusions


Why do you feel the need to tell people what they should not do all the time? That is twice you have used that sort of text.
People are free to talk about what they want to talk about. And I will say it again. My hat is off to all the 3PD developers who are choosing to look for solutions rather than continue to frown upon any progress.
If your bigger issue is with GPL, then dont use products that are GPL.

Their might be a good point in that post, but some how I missed it. It has been along day forgive me if I am missing the obvious.
Author:  Wendy [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
Merging.

Tjay, FYI, we've now opened up the boards. You can reply directly to your topic of choice.
Author:  tjay [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
What a relief
Actually, I think I need to take a break from this forum. People who know me think of me as a soft spoken kind person.
This sort of stuff makes me irritable.
I should probably just go design a web site or two and wait until everyone is through huffing and puffing and decide to get down to work.
Author:  AmyStephen [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
Trijnie wrote:
The way this GPL is enforced only applies to Joomla!. So please don't talk on behalf of other Projects who have no problem with creating solutions connecting one free project to another, under what license what so ever . Please, check with their policies first before stating conclusions.

Kind regards,

Trijnie


Trijnie -
Please do not tell us what we can or cannot discuss.  :-* You were speaking for Joomla!. How is that any different?  ???

Your assertion that "the way this GPL is enforced only applies to Joomla" is incorrect!

The "evidence" provided by SMF for discontinuing the Joomla! SMF bridge *and* naming Mambo as the CMS people should use - was an email discussion with the FSF.

Never was Joomla! mentioned. A generic discussion about non-GPL and GPL software took place and the FSF concluded that a bridge created a combined work and the non-GPL compliant software would be a problem bridged to GPL software.

Given FSF's statement, SMF announced the Joomla! SMF bridge was illegal. SMF also provides bridges to other GPL software, including XOOPS, E107 and Mambo. The FSF's opinion is just as relevant for the XOOPS, E107 and Mambo bridges, as it is for Joomla!'s.

All the best!
Amy :)

...hang in there tjay  8)...
Author:  mcsmom [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
tjay,

If you haven't installed 1.5rc yet, do it and have some fun (or frustration, but good frustration). It is the cure for gpl thread fever.  :)
Author:  Trijnie [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SMF Bridge discontinued - How it affects End Users
Hi Amy,

AmyStephen wrote:

Trijnie -
Please do not tell us what we can or cannot discuss.  :-* You were speaking for Joomla!. How is that any different?  ???


I'm not telling anyone to discuss or not to discuss. Just do not make any statements for projects you do not represent for they do not enforce the gpl the same.

Kind regards,
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