Joomla! Discussion Forums

I just want to confirm... I just tried a dry-run of upgrading from 1.0 to 1.5, and all the old links (as in, links readers have made from the 1.0 site) are dead... as in, 404. This isn't okay... I stuck with Joomla's SEF, despite it really hurting us in the rankings, just so that we could upgrade to 1.5 and gain the benefits of truly SEF URLs.

I thought the goal would be to make SEF work with the existing link structure. For example, /content/view/211/the-name-of-the-article

That way, search engines would pick up the new URLs, but old backlinks on the web, user bookmarks, etc... would all still work. Instead, they all 404.

This is going to cause major woes for any high-profile site that upgrades to 1.5. They are essentially going to lose every single backlink on the web to every single article. What do you think that is going to do to folks PageRanks?

I don't mind a new URL structure. I do mind that there is no legacy mode for existing backlinks/bookmarks to keep working. If this doesn't get fixed, I have no choice but to suggest folks not upgrade. And considering 1.0.13 changes the hash system, they can't switch to Mambo either. And, I'll have to think long and hard about what I'm going to do with my sites... a non-Joomla future would cause just as much havok to backlinks as Joomla 1.5 appears to be right now.

I've blogged about this a bit more in-depth (link below), but I cannot stress enough, if this holds... Joomla is likely going to have another permanent fork, and Joomla 1.0.13 installs are probably going to need some custom solution to survive.

http://www.phonenews.com/blog/content/view/211/1/

Now that you've made threat after threat in your message, I'm sure all the devs will jump on board trying to help you out!



Ian

I couldn't find the doc - it came up 404...   (Just KIDDING!!)

Read your blog posting and one of the things that stuck out was this quote:


Apparently you ARE confused.  1.5 is NOT an 'upgrade'!  It is an entirely new version of J! rewritten from the ground up and therefore you ARE MIGRATING to a new version and shouldn't expect backwards compatibility on everything.  That's why they call it 'migrating' as opposed to 'upgrading'.

But I'm sure someone will come up with code to convert the links to the new format, and that's why this is a release CANDIDATE.  It's there for folks to test and report back their findings.  But posting in your blog about the Core 'slapping developers in the face' and making comments about the lag time in the release is certainly not going to win you any support for your problems, nor is trumpetting that you are "choosing to ignore" their GPL decision as you "find it has no legal merit".  Are you a lawyer and jsut a part time webmaster?  Didn't think so.  That makes your legal knowledge on par with 98% of the people here...

I honestly don't get why people will gripe about services and goods they get for FREE, and then expect the same people to help in their very next breath...

I gripe because I want Joomla to be successful. I dislike when open source developers claim that because the software is free, I don't have a right to express a concern... I strongly believe that not supporting 1.0-generated backlinks will kill Joomla as a respectable CMS.

It's not a threat either, it's my informed opinion after watching PHP-Nuke fall apart, my site get hacked, and people say "it's PHP-Nuke... what do you expect?". I see the same set of circumstances forming around Joomla... a large portion of the userbase won't be able to upgrade if they can't maintain their backlinks, and that kind of forking will cause people to migrate elsewhere in disgust.

I also disagree with the notion that migration and upgrading are not one and the same. In fact, the forum is titled "Migrating and Upgrading". If a migration is going to be comprehensive, it has cannot be intrusive to a CMS's viewership. From a CMS reader's standpoint, there should be no difference between a migration and an upgrade... or it is not an effective migration.

It's simple logic really... users can't upgrade if it kills their PageRank. Users would rather spend the time migrating to another CMS and setting up 301 redirects. Saying "I'm sure someone will come up with a solution"... is not a solution. I see Joomla users falling into three classes:

1) Those that migrate to 1.5 and ruin their search engine rankings for 3-6 months
2) Those that cannot ruin their search rankings and are stuck with 1.0 until it becomes insecure and they get hacked (insert PHP-Nuke references here)... some may be able to migrate to Mambo if they don't upgrade to 1.0.13, and Mambo team may provide a migration path for 1.0.13 users.
3) Those that migrate to another CMS and set up 301 redirects to keep old links working.

I'm not trying to be rude, I am saying that someone on the core team needs to realize this is a critical issue... and slam on the breaks until it is fixed.

I beat my child because I want him to be successful.  See the logic?



No one here said you don't have a right to express a concern; the fact that we are replying to you proves that.



You're entitled to think that, but you are incorrect.  Upgrading can be done in place to an installation.  Migrating implies that you are moving from one installation to another AND that a conversion is necessary to facilitate that process.



Right!  Migrating AND Upgrading.  Not "Migrating/Upgrading".  Two separate things.

There is a migration utility in the works (http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,193424.0.html), why don't you lend your angst there where it will do some good and become part of the solution.  Simply crying fire in a crowded room does not constitute being helpful.  Showing people where the exits are or grabbing an extinguisher is infinitely more productive.  For example saying that there will be forks and users will leave, gloom and doom, dogs and cats...living together...that's not constructive. 

You started off with a rant, instead of ASKING OTHERS, "Has anyone else noticed this or experienced that?  Are there any solutions?  How can I get this info to the right people that it is a problem??"  That's really what I had an issue with.  There is a way to ask others for help, and posting negative comments on your blog and then posting them here without looking to see if there's already people WORKING ON IT is not a good way of going about it.

Since this problem affects me in no way at all, where is my incentive to help you solve it?  There are many great minds here and you must remember at all times that you are just ONE of them.  We are users and devs helping each other.  Please try to keep that in mind, okay?

We're getting off-track here. I really think it's not productive to bicker about Migrating vs Upgrading, Joomla versus GPL. I didn't drag those things into this tread, I have commented about them on my blog.

Let's focus on the problem... backlinks need to work. I didn't post this to argue about nomeclature, I posted this because there is a serious problem, in my opinion, with Joomla 1.5.

If there are people "working on it", I encourage them to post here and assure the Joomla community that this will be handled.

This problem, again in my opinion, affects ever Joomla 1.0 install with any backlinks on the web. I can't see why you're saying that this doesn't affect you. Are you saying you don't have a single established Joomla 1.0-based web site?

I apologize if you've taken the wrong tact with my demeanor. I tested this issue several times on my internal sandbox servers, and spoke with other users of Joomla before posting this, and searched the entire forum to see if it wasn't being addressed already. Legacy backlink support should be in RC1, and every Joomla user I've chatted with elsewhere agrees.

If I thought someone was having the symptoms of a heart attack, I would speak up. Well, I think Joomla is about to have a major heart attack if this is not addressed...

I gave you a link, and some advice.  I suggest following both.

I don't see how com_migrator would help this situation. That is a tool for dumping the old database structure (from Joomla 1.0), and reformatting it for Joomla 1.5. It does not handle legacy front-end systems. That is part of the actual Joomla code, and legacy functions like backlinks need to be handled by Joomla core code.

Think of com_migrator as something that is not part of Joomla 1.5... it is a piece of software that runs on Joomla 1.0 right before you nuke the site from the server, and install Joomla 1.5. Joomla 1.5 needs to add /content/ 301's for legacy support.

As to your advice, well, I disagree with your inferences, and am looking for folks that want to help with this serious issue. I'd like to ask to re-focus this thread only with folks with constructive technically-focused contributions to fixing this issue, or working around it... every Joomla 1.0 install that will eventually upgrade/migrate/migrade, will thank you!

Put forward some suggestions and I would be happy to help out.  I'm happy to help if people are constructive.  Don't go down the road of 'Do this, or else' again though, or I'll drop out quickly.

Ian

Well, I did touch on a suggestion, but I will elaborate.

Essentially, the new link structure for SEF URLs is http://www.site.com/home-or-path/1-article-title (where 1 is the article ID).

Joomla, when SEF is enabled, needs to have /content/1/* 301 redirect to /trail/1-article-title.

A 301 Redirect should be sufficient... the item has permanently moved to a new URL, and search engines now fully respect 301 redirects.

Implementing this may not be easy. Basically, the system is going to need to generate the 301 redirect on-the-fly.... look up the article ID (grab it from /content/1 in the URL itself), and generate the link to the new perma-URL.

I am not sure how easy this will be to implement, as I am not familiar with the new SEF system in 1.5. One of the reasons why I have been so "harsh" with this situation, is because I think it probably won't be easy to implement. However, we're talking millions (yes, millions) of backlinks, favorites, and bookmarks that are going to fry if it doesn't get done. And, if it doesn't get put into 1.5.0... a lot of people are going to be a lot more "harsh" than I am about it.

Part of the reason why I don't make the distinction between migrating and upgrading... is that most Joomla users don't understand it. I'd say a plurality install using Fantastico or some other script. Sure, Fantastico can probably handle the migration, but when Joomla site operators find all their backlinks are toast... they're going to be asking Joomla to give them their PageRank back... not easy to do after Google re-crawls the site and awards all exsisting-indexed pages... 404 status.

My point is, if it isn't in 1.5.0, it isn't going to matter since search engines will void the old backlinks out, and strip the PageRanks from people's sites. It's not an "do this or else" type of thing... it's a "do this because if we don't... Google is going to screw every Joomla site in the rankings". I'm not the one giving the threat... Google's (and Microsoft's, Yahoo's, Ask's, etc) crawler is doing that for me. I'm just warning of the probable backlash when users pull the trigger on a migration to 1.5.0... every unknowing Joomla admin I've talked to in private about this freaked out when I explained it.

I am sympathetic to the poster, however I will try to put it in a bit more polite tone.

If all the ranking of joomla sites drops off the google map for the next 6 months to a year as everyone coverts/migrates/upgrades to 1.5,  then the overall view of the joomla project will suffer leading to lower overall adoption.

As I see it two things that MUST work for Joomla to work, and they are closly related are:

1. Inbound links that exist in the search engines. Many, if not most people, with sites using Joomla that are real heavy weights in the SERPS have spent thousands of dollars and perhaps years building links to their site including deep links both naturally and artificially. They simply can not throw these away.  On some level tossing all those links away, is like tossing away a domain name. So, they must either automatically or by hand 301 every old page to every new page, and cross their fingers and pray that the Google god is kind.

Let me put this in economic terms what this one little feature means. I have around $10,000 per site in off site optimization and link building invested on my major sites, of which I have 5 big ones plus some small ones based on Joomla generating $100,00+ in sales traffic a year.  So, I would be loosing about $50,000 US conservatively in work by upgrading, if I was not prepared to 301 every single link by hand if no solution presents it self. As it is I will likely write a converter for my own particular link situation.

The point, is SEO really really needs to be a core focus of the Joomla project moving forward. Yes, much can be done with extensions, but the core should work well with those extensions or the functions should be integrated. SEO changes, and so Joomla needs to keep up with those changes. I think some real positive steps have been taken by the the team in this manner.

A lot of low ranking Joomla sites in the SERPS, will also keep joomla project from attracting much needed attention and support.

2. The migration tool needs work out of the box in a very very robust manner, for very diverse situations. From a marketing perspective, it is an opportunity to loose users when they are able to ask themselves is it better to go 1.5 or some other system. I pondered the questions myself even though I run all my sites on Joomla because of the migration issues. I have been with joomla from the start (I recently had to change my forum user name), and never gave it any serious thought; but for a new users or a company that has recently jumped in I could see this being a real opportunity to find the door.

What we need is a link migratory feature built in to the content migration feature since the content and links are and where so tightly tied together in 1.12.  A link converter in the dump, that generates a 301 redirect for each link. This would make a major impact to the joomla system, and give 1.5 a head start in google.

I think the team has done great getting rid of a lot of the faults that they inherited in the code design, and Joomla is now off to fresh start.  We want to keep it that way.

I think you made a good point, though I don't think I was impolite in how I stated it earlier... it shocks me still that nobody has raised this topic previously... and I did copious amounts of searching to verify. I simply laid out the options, what the probable backlash will be, and my disappointment. I really want Joomla to succeed, or I would have made that thread a goodbye posting 

What you propose is actually a better idea than what I had. However, I'm not sure how functional it can be. If you make a migrator that dumps 301 redirects (say, into a content folder)... it won't work universally. Such a tool would have to support every type of platform that Joomla runs on. For example, you can't just make .htaccess files since Joomla runs on many IIS systems with SEF enabled.

The reason I suggested a component that routes dynamically, is that it would work always... be it on IIS or Apache... or anything else that comes along, so long as Joomla will run on it.

So, I think your idea is the quick-and-dirty solution. And it's a great one. However, it probably can't be included in the core code since it would be exclusive to working on Apache-based installs. I am in talks with developers to write such a solution (though from what I've been told, the costs of development will make it a closed source, for-profit project).

What I would like to see is someone from the Joomla team acknowledge the ramifications of not including such legacy support, for both backlinks and legacy RSS URLs... because like I said, if it's not in 1.5.0, the damage will be done the moment unknowing Joomla admins hit the migrate button (or, many, many buttons ).

I would also like to propose, for post-1.5.0 releases, that such a legacy backend... add support for plug-ins, so that folks on OpenSEF and other legacy SEF systems can migrate. I see those sites as being the most-resistant to migrating, since their code won't work with the initial official legacy backlink support (assuming that we can get this to materialize). I wouldn't suggest adding this to 1.5.0, just telling OpenSEF and other third-party SEF users to wait until after 1.5.1 (or whatever release it is added in) is out to migrate.

I think a better way to put all this is that we were all expecting a lot more from the migration component for 1.12 and the install script on the 1.5, but it has already been set to RC1 status. By the way, I am still fighting to get it to work at all.

During the development process lots and lots of people asked about how the migration script would work, but the development team kept telling us that it would be done after the core code was in RC1. Here we are now, and the migration component seems to have been built without migrating some of the most basic stuff from the previous candidate.

So, if there is some disappointment it is not with Joomla overall, but the lack of features in the migration component.

The problem is that there are two parts to migration. Getting the data to Joomla 1.5 is done by com_migrator.

Unfortunately, what most don't realize, is that com_migrator has nothing to do with Joomla 1.5 itself. As seen in this thread, I've been attacked because people don't understand that.

From a product management perspective, what happened here was passing the buck. A lot of people in the development cycle knew that migration was crucial, but defered to the folks writing com_migrator. The folks writing com_migrator weren't handling the legacy code in Joomla 1.5 itself... so they didn't write the code. Everyone assumed that the folks handling com_migrator was the end-solution for migrating... when it's only half the equation.

I've tried to speak up about RSS legacy support in the past, and was thanked for the heads-up, unfortunately, it looks like problems I myself identified with 1.5 (on this forum) didn't make it into RC. As far as I can tell, when you try to type in the Joomla 1.0 RSS URL into Joomla 1.5, it 404's too. This is probably the worst example of the backlink problem... since basically, every reader of a Joomla 1.0 RSS site will need to re-subscribe to the Joomla 1.5 RSS feed. To add insult to injury, most RSS readers will simply inform the reader that the site is dead. Guess what that's going to do to Joomla RSS subscriptions worldwide?

I think the best resolution we can get here, again from a product management perspective, is to get a core team member involved. Someone that knows Joomla SEF inside and out needs to take charge on this, and management of the project needs to realize that until this task is done... 1.5.0 cannot ship. Judging by the growing dismay with the status of com_migrator... I hope management won't launch 1.5.0 until both legacy backlink support, and com_migrator work flawlessly.

Here, Here!!! 

Completely on board with this. The migratory in and of itself is not a stand alone solution. What we do stand to loose is the great momentum that that Joomla has built since splitting from Mambo. This is not the time for patting people on the back about joomla 1.5 RC1 yet.

There seems to be sufficient interest in this problem all the way around. 

Hey!

Thanks for your interest in the project, though I am not in the position to speak on behalf of the project, I speak on behalf of myself only.

It appears that you both are making a significant amount of money from your Joomla! sites.  That is GREAT!

You have also identified an area that could be improved in the upcoming release.  I question your business sense though, when you claim that the migration would cost you $50 000 because of this issue.  If this is such a big issue for you, then perhaps you could hire some developers to work on a solution and contribute it back to the project.

We have a development team that has been working their ASSES off, and have been very receptive to user needs.  hatoncat, I don't think cenc is far off when he labels your presentation of the issue as impolite.

Knowing a bit about the issue and a decent amount about the code, the issue really isn't that difficult to fix.  Unfortunately, with other pressures of life at the moment, I don't have time to devote to the task, and to be completely honest, very little motivation after this discussion.  Perhaps the language did not come across clearly, but when somebody says to me 'Not okay', the tone suggested in that is one of 'how could you do that to me?' or 'how could you treat someone like that?'

You said,

This language as well, saying, 'I do mind' is language that has connotations of personal offense and carries with it an abrupt tone.

This attitude, I TAKE OFFENSE TO.

You said:

I guess nobody can stop you from griping, but really I wish you would stop.  Not because you're input isn't valuable, but because griping implies a sense of entitlement.  Space is provided for those to gripe and for those to complain.  IMO, this is far less helpful than suggesting an alternative or contributing a patch.

I can see a strong case for improved support for legacy links, but ATM, I'm not very motivated to take action.

I'm going to stop now, because the pleasure I get in contributing to this project gets killed when I see posts like yours.
Ian

Well, again, I disagree with the inferences drawn... I was given commitments that these types of issues would be resolved before RC (from core team members), and they weren't. Not even the basics like legacy RSS support. But, as I said, beating around the bush with the original post. Continuing to re-hash my original post as cannon fodder between members is not helping progress this issue. Let's just agree to disagree, and move on with something substantive.

I think it's important to fix this, because I don't think anyone will disagree that not having legacy backlinks will seriously prevent Grade-A Joomla sites from migrating. And, what was considered by some a "threat" still holds true... until this is fixed, I can't suggest anyone migrate to 1.5, and will continue to promote that opinion on every soapbox I have. Put yourself in our position, and tell us that it would be a good idea to migrate to 1.5... imagine your paycheck vanishing overnight. Open Source Matters... but putting food on the table matters more. I lost six months of web ranks the last time I had to migrate from PHP-Nuke to Joomla... nobody that has done that would suggest migrating to a 1.5.0 that lacks legacy backlinks.

I am looking for core team members that are motivated to resolve this. It's clear not having legacy backlink support in 1.5.0 will seriously (and in my opinion, critically) fork Joomla's user base. Representing highly-popular Joomla sites (who pay back Joomla by suggesting it to other people all the time, spreading overall Joomla growth)... we will just have no choice but to vote with our wallets (or, in this case, Mambo installations).

I did not upgrade my sites to 1.0.12 because 1.0.13 blocks a migration to Mambo (since 1.0.13 changes the user hashes). I need to keep my options open, my bottom line right now depends on it. Unless there is some form of commitment from core team members... "we" (who have their entire web presence invested in Joomla 1.0) have no choice but suggest others do the same.

Imagine if Microsoft told developers that the next version of Windows won't run Vista-built applications. Guess what software developers would tell users to do? As a developer I'll tell you... we'd rather port to Mac and tell Microsoft to jump off a cliff. I'd call every customer and tell them to do the same. Same thing here. The backlinks don't work... and our readers won't care why they won't work. They'll just Google their question and go to one of our competitors... despite us having top ranks for our respective subjects. The moment we install 1.5.0, I don't think anyone will disagree, the SERPs will vanish, and so will (depending on the site), 30 - 70% of our viewers.

We love Joomla, but we can't support bad code. No legacy backlinks is bad code.

okay, I will accept that...  please be aware in the future that three people in this thread have interpreted your remarks as impolite at least, and offensive at most.




The beauty of open source is that you have the source code.  You can modify the behaviour in many different ways, and can implement the necessary solution, and contribute it back to the project for others to benefit.  Your help would be greatly appreciated.

Unfortunately, I'm not a web developer. In fact, I'm a developer in the sense that I guide coders... I do the business end.

I have come up with a workflow for a new com_content legacy module, unfortunately, a truly-platform agnostic part of core code will probably (from what I've seen) take a core member to write.

Again, I've asked Joomla third-parties about this. They were just ask shocked and disheatened that this code was absent. The quotes I got were not pleasing... along the lines of thousands of dollars to make code just for me. To contribute the code back to core could would cost even more (that was the single-license closed quote). Some other developers I have asked are thinking of offering a client module for, say, $50/user. But, they're worried that would butt heads with Joomla's new policy on GPL.

Again, unfortunately, these issues are interconnected. I can't hire someone to come up with the solution because it would be too expensive for a single site. They're hesitant to come up with a product because they may not be able to sell it (and recoup the costs of development... everyone needs to put food on the table). Joomla tied our hands with their GPL decision.

So, once again, I return to what others have asked for... a call out to core team members to commit to making this 1.0 to 1.5 migration something that our readers will not fire us over.... because I lie somewhere in between that 30 to 70% of viewers who find us via search engines.

Actually, that is not true, at all! In fact, the GPL gives you great liberty. You can pay for custom work to be done to your copy of Joomla! *exactly* to your specifications. You are not limited to what the core developers do. You don't have to wait for them. You don't have to plead with them or blog in panic or hope they will hear your logic or agree with your reasoning and priorities. The GPL grants you the right to modify the code. Period.

It isn't until code is distributed that licensing issues come into play. And, at that point, why would you care? If you got what you needed for your site, it's not a bad idea to consider GPL'ing the work you had done and liberating the solution so that others can benefit, as well. That's when you become part of the community, when you contribute. That's exactly how the community approach works.

BTW - just wanted you to know it's against the forum rules - self-promotion - to post a link to your own site. 

@kaizen - nice post. @Ian - I hope you never let anything discourage you. You have contributed a great deal to our community. You will never know how many people you have helped.

Amy

I think you mis-read what I said in my last post... I raised the option you just presented, and explained how financially it was not possible.

Re-read where I said I was quoted "thousands of dollars" to have a 1.5.0 Legacy Backlink Module made for a single site. The only financially viable option other developers (again, those I have talked to) have come up with, is to sell a legacy backlink component as a for-profit component. There clearly is market demand... no Joomla site with a solid PageRank can switch to 1.5.0 without it.

Again, I never said GPL didn't empower. In this case though, Joomla's interpertation is clearly tying my hands. To develop Legacy Backlinks for just one site is financially untenable. To develop such necessary code as a for-profit component is against Joomla policy. The only option is to have every Joomla core developers to do the right thing and provide a full migration path with legacy backlink support.

Furthermore, Legacy Backlinks is not just for me. Any Joomla site with established search engine rankings simply cannot migrate without this support. We will lose our SERPs, our PageRanks, and our standing on the web. It's not just me, and quite frankly, I see Joomla forking if that happens. A forked Joomla is one more likely to fail, and one I really don't want to continue investing my CMS resources in. At that point, I would switch to Mambo or bite the bullet and migrate to WordPress. Again, I'm trying to avoid Joomla forking by drawing attention to this critical issue.

There are two types of Joomla sites, in my view. Those whose viewers are generally blog-based, and wouldn't lose out on losing backlinks. Then, there are high-profile, advertising-driven sites that gain a high percentage of viewers from search engine rankings. One group can migrate easily to 1.5 right now. The other group, has no tenable migration to Joomla 1.5. And that, my friends, is a fork in the road. We're trying to get core members to remove this fork, by providing proper Legacy Backlink and RSS support.

Edit: I didn't post a link to promote my own site. I tried to avoid GPL discussion and other issues not specific to this thread, however, I did go more in-depth as to how to resolve this issue. It's no different from posting a web site that goes more in-depth on a security exploit (or, in this case, a flaw in an upcoming release of a product). Though I could see how some heated tension in this thread could already derive that. Still, we move forward... looking for a solution to this critical issue.

This is our point. This is not about our individual situations. This is community wide issue.  The incomplete migration path like this is an open source project killer. 

Here is what I can not believe. The core members, themselves having lots and lots of sites to convert, are not concerned about their own back links and position in the search engines. That at no point this consideration came up between 1.1 and planning for 1.5?

Other than perhaps some blog and hobby sites, most semi-commercial sites are seriously effected.  No site should have to give up their back links to migrate.

Now, yes everyone can go off and produce their own custom hacks to fix this problem, but if it is such a widespread problem effecting so many members why is it being treated so lightly by the core team? 

As for my contributions, I try and contribute to Joomla at every turn. I have been in the bug hunt for months. But telling me to pump money in to hiring the core members, smells a lot like a closed source company I know ( e.g. MS ).  This might make some sort of sense, if we were talking about some sort of customized individual situation. We are talking about community wide demand to save everyones back links and search engine position, and the Joomla project in the process.

That said, I am fully willing to throw some money at this problem, but the real problem is the lack of any plans or strategy to do something about this so close to a stable release of both the component and Joomla 1.5 . 

I already have a solution in place for my situation, but I don't believe I can GPL my secretaries back to the Joomla community.  We want a community wide solution to this problem that everyone can use.

No. I read and understood. Whether it is financially possible for you, is up to you. You have to weigh the pros and cons of such a decision - the payoffs. But, it is certainly possible.


Excellent! Now, you need to combine the challenge to your solution: a financial hurdle; with this opportunity: market interest, think like a hacker and solve this problem! If the cost is too great for one individual to bear, consider gathering a group. If the market demands it, as you have indicated is clearly the case, the group should be easy to gather.


Now, that's just a defeatist attitude.  We are only restrained by our own intelligence, imagination and willingness to help solve our own problems.


Wow! That is one loaded sentence! Especially the "do the right thing" angle!  If you really do believe this - that the Joomla! core developers are your "only option" then I do understand your panic, negativity, and predictions of doom. Don't get me wrong. I know those guys are smart. I've even met some of them in person and they are amongst the smartest people I have met in my life. But, I never have believed they were my only option for anything. Just a good option for many things.



You are trying to help Joomla! avoid a fork, eh?  One time, during the past year, I was helping in a long running and passionate thread. The developers had made a code change that many didn't like. Someone actually told me in that thread that his "complaints" were his "contribution" to the community. 

Well, as it turns out, approaches like this are actually harmful to a community. It discourages contributors from working. It robs time to respond and remind people that they *do* have choices. Predictions of doom and exerting pressure and promoting a problem as universal and damning, linking to a nasty and negative blogs, is not helpful, it's harmful.

Just think about it - who has ever motivated or inspired you to great things by hammering you with such negativity? These approaches are never listed as ways to influence or lead people in best selling self-improvement books. People who use such approaches frequently try to find better, more positive approaches in dealing with others.



Thankfully, the forum moderators do not have to figure out intent when they apply the rules. Linking to your site is considered self promotion, regardless of why we do it. It's consistently applied.

+++

You obviously know what your options are. You can request a solution from Joomla!. It is best to be respectful and calm and considerate when you do so. Recognizing there is a problem is not actually the helpful part. Joomla! has plenty of challenges! Helping solve the problem and being willing to contribute towards the solution, is.

You can hire the work done. If it's cost prohibitive, you can network with others, share the cost, and hire the work done. You can choose another CMS (don't forget Drupal in that list you started).

You can wait also until v 1.6. If you are going to stick with Joomla!, I recommend you wait. Those who start with v 1.5 need to be sturdy types who are able to work around issues that will certainly pop-up and look to this new version as a great adventure and opportunity to *hopefully* contribute something the community needs for our future.

All the best in your decision,
Amy

An "open source project killer?" Is that *perhaps* overstating? Or, is Joomla! *really* going to die? 


Not following - didn't actually see a belief statement in that.


No one *has to give up anything!*


And you know this, how?


Do you report bugs after you hunt them? You have less than ten posts!


Who suggested you "pump in money" for core developers?  Good grief. If you want to donate to the project, please do so! Frankly, while we are being judgmental, anyone making tens of thousands of dollars on their J! websites *should* donate. But, even if you do donate, it wouldn't go to the J! developers. They don't get paid for this work. Not even from our donations.


Good. Get with HatonCat.


I am sorry you feel that way. I think it's harsh, but, I have a feel for the kind of effort the core gives and that's not something I would say.



Perhaps you could explain your manual solution. If there is something that can be manually done, then it can be automated. Explaining how *you* plan to resolve this problem - could move this finger pointing, blaming and shaming thread into a problem solving direction. Problem solving is a welcome! Brainstorming, troubleshooting, considering options - all of that is helpful and it builds enthusiasm and interest from others in helping solve the problem.

I'd like to pitch into such a discussion myself, but, not while blame is so liberally applied to people contributing so much to this community.

Amy

Nobody is casting blame, this is an aspect of this thread that has just resorted to idle bickering. We are pointing out a problem with Joomla 1.5. We are trying to convince core team members that it is damaging to not have a complete migration path.

Not having Legacy Backlinks is an incomplete migration path... it's just that simple. Giving me options about market demand is pointless... because the market (Joomla users) do not know that Legacy Backlinks are not included in 1.5.0. We are trying to raise awareness about this critical flaw in 1.5 code.

Not one established Joomla site admin that I have spoken with, not one, was aware that Legacy Backlinks would not work in 1.5. Worse, when you install 1.5, those backlinks can only be recovered by uninstalling 1.5.0 and reverting to your 1.0 backup. Joomla 1.0 admins don't know that will be missing from 1.5. Legacy Backlinks is an implicit feature of a migration path from two versions of the same CMS. That's why nobody hasn't reaslised this is a problem yet.

Yes, I believe this will cause significant damage to Joomla 1.0. Anyone running a Joomla 1.0 web site with established search search rankings, as it stands right now, should not migrate to 1.5.0. That is our position... and I'll make some more soapboxes if I have to in order to articulate this better. We need core team members to address this, not keep giving us reasons why we should beat around the bush on it, or seek help elsewhere. It is out opinion that Joomla 1.5.0 will fork away most popular-and-established Joomla 1.0 web sites if this is not implemented.

I agree with this comment of yours "this thread that has just resorted to idle bickering." So, let's move on!  In order to do so, though, let's have no more comments about the severity of this problem or that it is a critical flaw or the need for soapboxes or what we might think the core team's error was and certainly cease and desist on the forking comment. Then, we don't have to focus on those inflammatory remarks, instead, we can help you brainstorm solutions to your problem! 

+++

Starting anew! 

Problem statement: What can be down about legacy URLs to ensure backlinks are not lost?

Brainstorming list of possible resolutions:

• Joomla! core developers could solve this problem for us;
• A third party developer could be paid to build an extension to resolve the problem;
• We could replicate the manual method used by cenc's secretaries (Need more info on that, first).
• New idea: Consult a Joomla! SEO expert. For that, I'd recommend hiring Alledia, a Joomla! SEO expert, to review the problem and recommend a strategy.
• New idea: Contact your existing SEF URL 3rd party developer and ask what their strategy will be for migration.
• Broaden out our thinking: Perhaps searching the Internet for solutions could be more fruitful if we think about this problem more broadly. What if this is considered as the same type of challenge faced when a domain name is changed or a website is moved to a completely different CMS? Or, what do people do with established sites when they start using SEF URL solutions well after the site is in existence? I'm guessing those are common issues and that there are solutions to bridge backlinks during the transition period that will help keep that PageRank nice and healthy.

OK. That's a summary of our brain storming efforts, thus far, and *for bonus* three new ideas from me.

What else is a possible solution? Let's think! What other ideas do people have?

Amy

I've posted the Legacy Backlinks strategy that I've pitched to developers... Feel free to scroll up to the following post to read it.



As to Cenc's strategy. As we've already discussed (again, scroll up to previous posts)... manual or automatic generation of htaccess files cannot be implemented so that all Joomla sites can take advantage of it. Unfortunately, such a workflow requires Apache, and will not work for IIS. That still results in a lot of high profile sites losing their rankings... since many sites cannot use htaccess files, even on Apache.

Part of the problem is that while it would be nice for one or two sites (that do ample research) to properly migrate Legacy Backlinks (using a third-party tool), Joomla as a whole will still suffer. Even if 5% of Joomla sites use a third-party tool to deploy Legacy Backlinks, 95% of Joomla 1.0 web sites that migrate will still lose their search engine ranking positions. This, in turn, will damage Joomla's ranking on the web, as all CMS installs will collectively lose their search engine rankings.

I still hold (as do others in the SEO community), that if Joomla 1.5 does not have this as a part of core code... Joomla as a whole will suffer greatly. Those that do migrate will lose their rankings (damaging Joomla's standing on the web, as said above). And, those that don't migrate will have to track down a third party tool to close the bridge (assuming we can even get one made in time for 1.5's release). Including Legacy Backlinks as a part of core code is still critical.

I'll contact Alledia, perhaps including more Joomla-oritented members of the community in this will gain additional momentum... I'm sure they don't want to see Joomla suffer the fate we're analyzed.

Great! I'll keep thinking, too!
Amy

First some clarifications. I will skip most of the above, to jump on board with the getting down to business with real suggestions.




First, sorry for the confusion. That was a bad joke taken out of context. What I meant is that as a last resort me and my secretaries will match old links to knew links for a 301 .htaccess file for each site by hand. As a backup if no other solution can be found, with the aid of some php scripts to parse the sql dumps from the database in 1.0 and my secretaries to hand check that they all match, I will have to do the 301 redirect the old fashion way by hand for the most part.

Second, I have been around here a while. Above I mentioned that I had to change my user name, because well I did not like it. My former user name was "editor@ allsouthernchile.c". A mistake I made registering a long time ago, and never corrected when I entered an email where the user name should have been. So, I simply thought this a good time to start fresh.

The rest is water under the bridge.

Back to getting something done.

When sites are moved in SEO circles, the 301 are for the most part either done by hand or they are done by a combination of scripting and hand checking. The problem with scripting though in the Joomla 1.0 situation is that because of the legacy code of joomla, everyone had to go out and come up with their own fix to the none SEF urls. So, we have how many components from the former 1.0 to deal with, and their way of parsing the joomla stock urls in to SEF urls? 

Yes, those Urls are perhaps best dealt with through the former components developers.

Let's just focus on the native Url rewriting, with an eye to solving those problem too if the opportunity presented itself. On the one hand those sorts of components have been a great help, and offer great functionality, but what are their future now that 1.5 supports it internally?  There likely will always be a place for customization in this regard, but also this problem exist on some level because the original inherited 1.0 code from M never properly addressed the issue.  This is perhaps all something to be dealt with later, but the fragmentation around controlling SEF Urls in the core of joomla is one issue that would solve the problem going forward.

Now as pointed out, Apache does not cover all users of joomla, but a solution for Apache would cover a good deal of users. How many, is hard to guess, but chances are it would likely mirror the % of user of Apache on the internet as a server fairly closely.

That said, there are methods to do 301 redirects on IIS. Just a quick check of Google on the issue, and I am not saying this is the solution, but the generalities yielded this about headers:



So, the idea is to generate for Apache in .htaccess file the 301 and for IIS something like the above, and we should be able to cover about 90%+ of all host (I think) in question in a fairly controllable manner. 












 

Another thought.

There should be a dedicated SEO section of the forum. We might be able to get ahead of such problems in the future, increase the profile of Joomla overall, and generally increase the awareness of the importance and changes in regards to best SEO practices for Joomla.

I have come across Joomla users on sites like http://www.webworkshop.net asking for help, because there is very limited information on the Joomla forum about it. The SEO experts there are rarely able to give specifics about Joomla because they don't know it, and don't use it.  Getting Joomla a reputation as an SEO friendly CMS could be a major catch for the project overall. 

Again, the theory is that the more high profile well ranked joomla sites in the search engines, the more it helps endorse Joomla as a CMS of choice.