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I asked Alledia for a price range... he/she could not provide one to me, only pointing to a bounty. In order to have a bounty, we need at least a reasonable price range, or at least a goal to get users to contribute to. I know technically it's not required, anyone can throw money at a problem, but people contributing to a bounty want some idea of how likely the goal will be met... from my experience un-ending bounties are much less successful than ones that have reasonable expectations from the start. I've only been involved in one un-ending bounty, and that was to get Windows XP to run on Intel-based Macs.

Again, feature frozen is a term. But, I don't think it applies here. If Joomla's SEO coders think it does, then they are the only ones that can say that. Right now, I have absolutely no idea if they're even aware of this issue. Until they post or respond in some way to this matter, the best people to do the job aren't even in the equation. So, I think the next step is to bring them into the discussion. Anyone that can help with that?

Contact ianmac. Give it a try. What can it hurt? 

Amy

I have come up with a new solution. Unfortunately, it may not be one that people are entirely interested in.

See, WordPress lets you define your own SEO path easily. So, if you migrate your Joomla 1.0 site to WordPress (which is certainly possible, even with Joomla 1.0.13)... you then set the SEO path URLs to match the Joomla 1.0 schema.  You can then extend on them by adding article titles and dates at the end of the path.

Unfortunately, this is the type of migration I am trying to avoid (since I think many, many Joomla web sites will use it as opposed to going with J!1.5), but it is currently the only viable one that preserves legacy backlinks... oh, and it's free.

Hat -

Honestly, that's not a bad idea. I went through this thread and reread all of your posts. You have done nothing but insult, threaten, attack, foretell doom and gloom, and claim the GPL is tying your hands and preventing developers from putting food on the table.

If you want me to articulate why I made those claims, I will be happy to do so. I went through your quotes and colored your responses according to threats, attacks and demands, doom and gloom and Money issues and GPL, the tie that bonds. There was so much material, your quotes and my analysis exceed the limits of a post.

Amongst other things, though, you repeated the claim that estimates provided you were for thousands and thousands of dollars, a cost you suggest has been magnified by the implications of the GPL. No offense, but, honestly, I think someone saw you coming.

Regardless, we found you an ethical developer who understands the issues, is a leading expert in Joomla! v 1.5 worldwide, is confident he could build a plugin to resolve your challenge, indicated he was willing to do the work, and was confident his price would be reasonable.

Even after I recommended you contact him several times, I suspect you still have not taken the initiative to do that, have you?

You also never answered my questions about your Joomla! v 1.5 readiness.

Please, watch this video.

I've used WordPress and I honestly love it. While, your site appears to have decent activity, it is no where close to bone crushing. There are FAR larger sites on WordPress. See Matt's site, as an example. He's Mr. WordPress, you know. BTW, I need to let you know, Matt is a bit busy and he probably won't be able to personally answer your questions in the forums. So, if being able to call core developers to account is high on your list of CMS features, better keep digging.

Also, he's sincere about protecting the WordPress source and volunteer efforts of the WordPress community from exploitation. All you will find is free - beer and liberty - plugins.  Not to worry, though, you can pay people to help build and migrate your site.

We are not trying to convince people to use Joomla!, especially if they are so visibly and deeply unhappy. I don't know of anyone who volunteers with Joomla! that would prefer someone stay when they are so miserable. Simply amassing more and more end users would be a very poor goal. Life is too short to stay with a CMS where you have to threaten, attack, demand, predict doom and gloom to get your way.

You are free! Live each day to the fullest. Be well and be happy! Go where your heart leads you but, quit NOW with this approach.
Amy

Amy, I am sorry you have mis-interperted my inferences. But I thank you for your contributions. I have been in communication with everyone that you have suggested, and I am continuing to move forward to make Joomla 1.5 the best content management system out there.

I have no wish to switch to WordPress unless Joomla's migration becomes untenable. I find Joomla to be far more extendable and an overall better content management system. Telling me to leave when others are motivated along with me to fix this, in time for Joomla's 1.5 release is not logical. I simply provided an alternative should the worst-case scenario happen; Joomla 1.0 and 1.5 forking because the problem isn't resolved. It's a just-in-case option, certainly not an optimal one.

I really regret the argumentative nature of our discussions. I fully disagree with the classifications you have made as to the tone of my posts, and I thought everyone had agreed previously that such discussion was pointless and broadly in dispute depending on what your position in this matter.

That said, I will not continue them with you anymore, but I thank you for your time. I will continue to discuss resolving this with the Joomla community though, I don't think it's appropriate for you to determine when an issue has been resolved... as I am still working to improve Joomla in this regard.

Now, onto a progress report.  The general consensus I have found is a price range between $100 and $500 for a project that could be licensed and included in either com_migrator, or a new com_content legacy module. I am still seeing what the best way to raise this money would be, and ensure that such a component can be made in time for inclusion. Suggestions on that would be appreciated.

Then, why are you making these threats? 



As I reviewed your posts - as I read the blog you linked to - I was shocked by your approach. Please watch that video. Consider your net impact on this project. Are you showing respect for the people who give time and energy and code to make a CMS available for you to use?

My assistance is not needed? Excellent. My assistance will stop at the very moment your threats, attacks, demands, predictions of doom and gloom and nasty comments cease.

That's all I am after! 
Amy

I didn't make a threat Amy... I made a technical comparison. And I think it actually proved a point... a full migration (including legacy backlinks) is more straightfoward right now between Joomla 1.0 and WordPress, than it is between Joomla 1.0 and Joomla 1.5. That is the flaw in the migration process, and I don't think it's any clearer than that.

But I didn't post it, as I've stated about three times now, because I want to go to WordPress. I made the comparison to show the critical need for this issue to get fixed. What do you think other Joomla 1.0 site operators are going to do when they have to stare down losing their entire SEO position on the web for six months? I'd love to hear what you would do in this position, assuming you have invested in both high-grade SEO, and Joomla 1.0.

I couldn't disagree more with the inference that you drew by that video: that I am a poisonous person. I have received many messages in private in support of my posts in regard to this issue, and I intend to continue to further this project to a solution... a solution that improves Joomla and secures a full migration.

If you have any more comments about my tone or the manner in which I phrase posts on this forum, I ask that you communicate them to me in private. Then they won't slow discussion of this matter, and we can hopefully move forward on all fronts. Thanks.

I don't want to sound negative - me of oh so few posts - but I have been following this thread for a while because the substance is of great importance and interest to me.

Amy, I clearly appreciate your efforts to the community and your sincerity. But I think you are entirely missing the tone of hatoncat's posts. He (assuming it is a he) is writing in what I feel is a very clear and deliberate manner, breaking down what he believes are issues (and in many cases I agree with him), the potential consequences of these issues, potential scope of problems arising from these consequences, as well as investigating some proposals to resolve these issues. I honestly do not think he could have made a more technically clear correspondence (maybe "clinically clear" is more suitable) than he did.

Anyway, I am being totally sincere when I say this - I believe there was an inadvertent tone associated with this entire discussion that really does not exist. Take look #2 at the thread in the context of a good natured, investigative review of the issue and it looks a lot more good natured of a thread. I'm also sincere in that I appreciate the way you like to mentor the community - though I do not always agree with your views. I do support the open discussion of open source 

HC - thank you for bringing this issue up front.

Linesiders -

If this is an important issue, then get in here and help make it happen! But, if we want to insist that something is so important to us, and therefore others must do it for us, then shouldn't we also consider why we are so entitled?

The core team and development team are not our group of slaves working on our behalf to build everything we need. We are a community. If we want something, then we should help make it happen.

I am not missing any points. I have seen a million good ideas - important ideas - "critical to the success of the project" ideas raised. But, very few hands raised volunteering to make it happen. If wishes were fishes, right? Contributors make things happen.

Thanks for sharing your views - hope to see you around more and would love to see you get involved!
Amy

This is why I would never upgrade an existing site to 1.5. Loosing backlinks is like starting over

ModemLooper -

HatOnCat has the name of a developer willing to build an *extremely* inexpensive solution. I know he has been networking and likely has that very small sum covered. But, if you want to help chip in for it, please contact him. It is NO WHERE CLOSE to the thousands and thousands earlier suggested. It's not even close to one of those numbers.  And, I understand it will be shared freely once it's purchased.

Things tend to work out when we try, as a community, to make things happen!
Amy

At the same time, upgrading to 1.5 is not an imperative.  If you are satisfied with 1.0 - then keep using it!

The world would in some ways be a better place if we weren't so version freakish.  i.e. often we upgrade because it is a newer version, not because it does something new that we want it to do.

That being said, I love 1.5 and dread the times when I have to work in 1.0. 

Ian

haha I didn't mean never ever. Just not until its an upgrade/migration that is easy without breaking links. Sometimes you have to start from scratch with software and move on because features that need to be included like sef will not function properly on old code. I dont have a problem with 1.0 Yeah had some fits of rage getting it to be where I wanted it. A lot of that was javascript /template problems. Some modules/components are bugged. but thats what happens in open source. And who hasn't bought a product and it doesn't work with an old model?

I did a site in 1.5 and can say it much much better! 

As soon as a upgrade works like cake with no problems, I'm there. In the mean time I will let the early adopters hash it out.

Agreed...  and just wanted to say that though bugs are common with open source, this problem isn't unique in the open source world.  Who hasn't bought a piece of software only to find that it is completely buggy and doesn't work well at all?

Ian

ianmac, what is the status of your solution you proposed for a component? I contacted ianmac offering to contribute a $100 to the proposed bounty, but have had no response yet.

Are you looking for $100 each?  I am now seeing people mention that the solution bounty is like $500? What is the plan with that?  Is this going to be released for free to the community or is this a purely commercial component when done?  "Bounty" implies that we are willing to pay for the development of a component that will be released back to the community. People are willing to contribute, we just need some public discussion of what is going on with it for clarity and planning.  If it is dead, then we also need to know that so we can start looking at other options.

If you are going commercial with it, then I would be willing perhaps buy the end product but not fund the development of it. I would be willing to line up as a potential customer.  But if we are going after a public free solution for the community, then I am also on board to contribute to the bounty for that.

I think this really more of a semantical thing. Just mostly interested in what plan is at this point. I would be far more willing to contribute some money to solving the problem, if the goal is to solve the community wide issue with an opensource free component that everyone can benefit from for this problem.

At least for the current situation, I suspect a component such as ianmac is proposing likely has a very short shelf life as a commercial project anyway once everyones back links get updated say in google over the course of the next year or so, and old links on other websites start dropping out and being replaced with newer links to the new joomla urls. 

Standardization though it the long term need. It just seems that this migration is the perfect opportunity to solve this once and for all, and save everyones back links in the short term. The sef urls have changed about 3 or 4 times in the last couple of years, I just would hate to have to go through this all over again if they need to be changed again as 1.15 moves in to other versions.

The problem with staying with 1.12 is sooner or later it will be dropped. We need to plan for the conversion of sites sooner or later. The point of this thread is to get ahead of the problem while the 1.15 is still in RC and all the other associated issues are being hammered out. This is just another one (obviously an important one) that needs hammering.

Hey!

I thought I was waiting on you...  sorry.

If somebody creates a bounty for this somewhere then I will reply and release the code once the bountry has been reached.

Here is the pricing scheme - the results will all be open source:

Initial extension - provides backlinks for standard SEF and non-SEF links for the content component - $100.
Each additional components for standard SEF and non-SEF links - $15
Additional SEF scheme (with necessary specifications provided) - $50

I think these are fair prices and I'm sure you'll agree.

Let me know when the bounty has been setup and I will reply to it.
Ian

COOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLL :-[ :-\

I'll get the bill, you guys get the tip!!!

I have pm ianmac about arranging this. I'll pickup the big bill for the main component. Hope everyone will step up and pay for some of the more common component plugins.  I might at later point come back with some specific component plugin request for ianmac.

Any chance we might get this perhaps released in with the final joomla as perhaps part of the migration package?  Or perhaps as a mention in the migration documentation that it exist in the extension repository to solve this problem.

Sincere respect, cenc! 

Ian - you are too generous with your work and it is very much appreciated. 

Great show of community strength to both of you...Amy

Just an update on this...

legacy backlinks have now been implemented in the core as a final stage of implementing legacy support.  Please try the latest nightly and if further support is required feel free to contact me.

Ian

Wow...this was one hell of a thread!

From the worst to (eventually) the best of what this community is made up of.

I love you guys!

wooooo man ...

thoroughly entertaining+ knowledgeable + emotional + action packed thread
was kinda watchin a movie

Ian ...I ve started adulating u man..'a protagonist coder'


...so whers Hatoncat finally .. still wid J! ??

PS: Thnx Amy..nice video. 

hah...  just to be clear, it wasn't my code that got committed...  one of the devs noticed the same problem and implemented a similar solution.

Ian

Sorry for not being in this thread lately, unfortunately I had obligations that took me away from work for half a month. It's great to see legacy backlinks get implemented into the release of Joomla 1.5.

While some posters will likely disagree, I think this thread has shown the best in open source from start to finish... pertinent discussion and results that have improved the project.

I'll take a look at the latest nightly shortly... does anyone know if legacy RSS links also made it in? It's more minor, but still important, especially since a lot of Joomla admins don't know how to set up a 301 redirect, much less the specific implementation.

The developers deserve 100% of the credit for having the foresight, intelligence, dedication and generosity of sharing their time and work. None of us in this thread did anything to advance that solution. The code is what solved the problem and the credit goes to those who did that work.

Perhaps you might be so kind as to mark this thread solved?

Much appreciated,
Amy

Amy, Open Source is an ecosystem. Saying that one part of the system is more important than the whole is a mistaken reversal. Engineers deserve credit, as well as the dedicated users that discussed this. Speaking from being a product manager, a user, and an editor-in-chief, I've been on both sides of the equation... it has given me a unique appreciation of both.

I cannot thank those people enough that implemented this, however, I don't think it's really necessary to point fingers... in blame or in credit, in open source software.

Thread title updated... I'm off to try a new VMWare install for 1.5 testing. I may change it back to in-progress if RSS is not legacy backlinked however.

Sorry...  I'm not sure that I read that right...  are you saying that the people who worked their asses off writing the code do not deserve credit?  I assume you didn't really mean that...

Do you mean that you contributed just as much as the people who wrote the code?  Wow...

And, for the record...  the changes were made quite independently of what was discussed in this thread.

http://groups.google.ca/group/joomla-de ... 6449facc32

Do I think that the community can contribute?  Absolutely...  do I think that grumbling and complaining is worth just as much as writing code, well...  IMO, no.

Anyway, I usually enjoy writing here, but some of the attitudes that have been displayed here are really discouraging.  It has been a really frustrating experience and I'm saddened to see it here at Joomla!

Ian

Perhaps you didn't read where I said I couldn't thank enough those that did come up with the code...

My response to Amy's argument was simple: Assessing credit in terms of absolutes isn't appropriate in an open source ecosystem. And I'll leave it at that since I went more in-depth in my last post. Amy's argument that discussion in this thread was useless was simply something I couldn't agree with, and gave a logical objection.

I'm quite happy with the contributions of many people in this thread, as it has raised awareness about the SEO status of Joomla 1.5, and I think that can only help things improve with the project overall... even if it didn't spark the specific solution implemented, nobody at this point disagrees with the notion that this was an important topic to raise or discuss. At least, I don't think anyone is arguing that...

I started discussing with Jinx about legacy backlinks when Beta 1 was launched, and while I never brought that up in this thread directly, I really don't appreciate when some say that nobody in this thread helped make the solution happen. I've spent hours on this, and am not interested in debating tone another minute. The job got done, and Joomla 1.5 is much more likely to be a success because of it.

Anything else required? Or, can we close this discussion, now?

I don't see a need to lock this thread, especially not yet. There's still a need for people to test it out and see if it does everything. I still haven't heard back if legacy RSS backlinks were added or not, and others probably have more questions as well.

Please open a new thread for your new request. RSS feeds are not the same topic as legacy URLs.

Thanks!
Amy