Joomla! Discussion Forums

I have been taking a good long look at Magento Myself.

The biggest issue I see is how they implement usernames - by email.

Also the 1.0.13 onwards new salted passwords won't transfer well to magento. 

Either Joomla or Magento would need to be hacked to facilitate this different way of handling users.

You could probably use the Joomla user email instead of their username in a bridge to Magento, but it still doesn't solve the password issue.

You could remove the salt perhaps I would need to look at it more.

But the thought I came too in my research was - why bother? 

e.g. Virtuemart allows you to turn your site into a store, well Magento is already a store. Plus magento does have a basic cms implementation allowing you to write your own pages, and modules.

The better bet would be simply to theme them the same so they look like the one site, then just have dual logins for people. One for the store, and one for the main site.

Big hurdle number 3.

Magento License is not GPL compatible:

From the GNU GPl site:



Given that this was what caused the SMF team to withdraw would mean Magento would have issues as well. 

It sounds to me ... this is not gonna work out.

thanks for those detail, Danayel

I've opened a Magento/Joomla! discussion group over at the Magento site:

http://www.magentocommerce.com/group/view/141

Chris

dang that sucks. I was going to suggest the use of an OpenID.

Does Magento Support Open ID?

An OpenID integration would not call into play the GPL.

You would still need to log in twice I believe.

I am also not sure how much information is stored on an open id account. Shipping addresses??

In whcih case all it does all ow is signing in with the same account, but you still need to do it twice and possibly enter shipping info too.

Not much better. But a bit.

Shouldn't have to logon at all, depending on how you have configured your OpenID. But, I agree, integration is always about "degrees." If you are simply trying to ensure "single sign-on", then OpenID can be a very useful tool.

Amy

Perhaps I stand corrected then. I haven't messed with openid to be honest. Never even used it. 

Still brings us back to my original question, does Magento support open id?

You are asking that in the wrong forums, Danayel. 

Take care,
Amy

@Danayel =  OpenID integration on Magento's side would need to be a module on their end...now... how that would actually tie into something together such as Joomla I don't know. I'm sure if someone started to look into it then it might work.

@Amy =  Why won't OpenID play well with GPL? Sorry I haven't really looked that far into that. It twas just a suggestion I had on the top of my head. And isn't there already a module set up for OpenID with Joomla? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think someone has already made an attempt at using OpenID http://extensions.joomla.org/component/option,com_mtree/task,viewlink/link_id,1557/Itemid,35/

Regardless of the license I'm sure someone will try it out just to see if it works.

Now how would OpenID work when a customer versus an administrator logs on..hmm that's a good question. I don't think it would really matter because your customers aren't going to be logging into your Joomla site they just want their gear. Now that might come into a conflict if lets say your userbase is gaining access to a member portion of the website.

- Tony

Tbianco - I am supporting your idea. You are on the right track. Using OpenID and "integration at the template" is a good way to connect systems with license issues.

Keep up the good ideas!
Amy

Wow wow wow wow! Magento is awesome! If there was a way to use only the shopping cart component of Magento and the CMS part with Joomla that would be simply amazing. I have no php skill or any of that. I stumbled upon magento while searching for backend office order management stuff. But I took the time to go through their whole demo, admin and front end.  What an amazing system. I love it!

yeah it's very good... and up to now there is no possibility to "bridge" it with an up-coming 1.5.

I didn't realise this thread was here, and started a short time ago another thread http://forum.joomla.org/index.php?topic=246362 but i think it is best to continue on this existing one.

Forgetting about the licence for a second

I have seen and loved the Magento, and from what i understand about it, if we stripped it down to the main ecommerce engine removing all other parts of the cms not needed to lighten it up, and built a new set of templates that will work directly with Joomla modules and positions etc, then it would work quite fine. Of course split the code into the admin and front end, and have the database install in to the joomla database as new tables such as mg_products for example.

I have a VERY good group of programmers who do a lot of work for me, and already thrashed out a cost to build this to a level that is installable at a fixed version. This cost is about $3000 (£1500), and each time an update is released they will add it to our installer if it is needed.

This means it will not be commercial but more like a club like joomlart, where you pay for support etc rather than the code. I think this would be the best idea, as i probably have the skill to do all this, and many other people probably have, but in real life i couldn't afford to take the time off, and if anybody else here has the time, they are obviously doing something very wrong.

The club would allow the programmers to work full time on the system as a group of people working together rather than messing about, getting the project up and running.

I would say £25 - £50 per year as a member cost, that will give you unlimited access to everything, support, files, forums etc etc. You have to remember we are all using these scripts to make money in one way or another, even if it is making your own site, or sites for other people, so if you cant claw back £50 (£1 per week) there is something seriously wrong with your business.

The licence
I don't want to start a tangent, i truly don't as its been talked about enough, but this is a prime example of how 2 forum pages of excitement was extinguished by one forum post on the 2nd of Nov

after


So even though everybody wants it, it is obviously giving a hell of a future for Joomla and will drag it into 2008, rather than keeping it held back like virtue mart and its problems, it seams once again the licence issue could split a lot of people.

I propose that the project should go ahead with or without the licence, as i know i want it for my clients, and i know from the response here that many others want it very much. From what i have read there is some contradicting claims with the license as well

http://www.magentocommerce.com/license/#I’m%20a%20developer,%20what%20does%20the%20OSL%203.0%20license%20mean%20to%20me?


I am a little tired of Joomla being held back to be honest because of somebody having their jobs worth hat on, lets put the progression and development of Joomla first, other wise people are going to be moving away to other projects.

Isn't this one of the reasons Mambo and Joomla split in the first place!

The alternative is to split Virtuemart into a lighter system, with a much better template system

da8iwr -

There are ways to connect systems with licensing issues that do not violate the rights of copyright holders.

Option 1: As has been discussed, we can use OpenID for one type of connectivity. If Magento does not have that capability and people have money to invest in a solution, that is one excellent investment to consider.

Option 2: There is a new project called JFusion headed up by Marius that is connecting Joomla! with both GPL-compatiable and proprietary solutions, SMF included, in a way that the FSF has already indicated was not violating the GPL.

Option 3: Web Services, xml-rpc, soap - connecting in those ways can provide viable solutions that respect licenses.

We are smart people, technical people, accustomed to solving problems. So, let's not give up so quickly. Everything is possible. It's simply a matter of finding the right way to get the work done while showing respect for free software developers whose work we benefit from. Since respecting the terms of the license is all that is asked of us, it's a matter of integrity and honor to comply.

I hope some of those ideas help you to successfully provide good things for your customer base.

All the best.
Amy

Hi Amy
Ive never seen JFusion before, it looks very good.

I make my own extensions http://www.virtuemartfrooglefeed.com and it is always on my mind this type of thing, constantly, and i have looked at all ways around it and found it almost impossible.

I 100% respect the Joomla code and the programmers that brought it here, but i really cant understand why the licence was designed to prevent commercial developers build upon it. Surely it is only in the interest of Joomla and the core programmers to allow people to add contributions paid or not to give a larger and larger choice of code.

So the JFusion is basically a bridge that doesn't use any of the joomla code to run and allows other add ons to link to it. This would still cause issues with things like mambots running that it doesnt expect, and template integration. As the new code wont know what to look for as its not actually linked to the code, only the db, or did i pick up the info wrong there.

I thought about trying to make magento as a bridge a long time ago, basically altering the config files to work directly with the same database that joomla is using with a different prefix. Then build some form of component that will take data from the magento fields and display it through Joomla. This means Magento isn't actually running in Joomla, only the bridge component is. That way no license is effected, and to make it better -

- Users can be linked from the user tables
- You can then have it working with modules etc
- Any updates will update magento and not effect the installer
- The admin system would work in Joomla component as it just updates the magento fields as well.

But then what your doing in real life is completely building a new ecom component, that just uses another persons db, so you may as well make a new ecom solution just for Joomla.

Which i have seriously thought about doing.
A very light system with very simple templates, that allows a plugin effect rather than updates and hacks. So it will work more like Joomla does with components and modules. This allows extras like accounts system, payment systems, Buy now pay later etc.

A friend of mine from University days has recently finished an award winning ecommerce system that has been featured in many magazines and publications, http://www.tradingeye.com/ (shop builder). We have already spoke about trying to integrate this into other CMS system like Joomla and Drupal, to open his market up as well.

Regards
Ian

It's not "commercial" - it's "proprietary" licenses - restrictions imposed on the improvements made to free software that causes a problem. 

Those who decided to license their work using the GPL did so in order to make certain that when their code - their work - their creation - their 'asset' - was freely used, the downstream improvements would also be liberated in the same fashion. That's their "payment" if you will - making that happen.

The GPL is not for everyone. Not everyone wants to comply with those terms. But, if we choose to use it and benefit from it, we do so accepting those terms.

Your friends software looks great! If "opening up his market" to the masses available in a free software community is his goal, then he can do so, even commercially, provided he complies with the license terms. There is nothing wrong with commercial use. Look at MySQL and community and gated solutions - all GPL code. Linux and Red Hat, same thing.

Good luck - I hope I have encouraged, and not discouraged you. You can achieve your goals in these frameworks - you might have to adapt - but - people are making money with free / open source software and not violating the law.

Kind regards,
Amy

Hi Amy
I read the "death threads" one afternoon (took about 6 hrs i think) all about the GPL vs Commercial etc, and the way i understood it is if my code i sells commercially (only available for money) and it uses any GPL code to make it work (which it does), then my commercial code also becomes GPL and is allowed to be modified and distributed for free, did i get that right?

If so, how can i make money any other way, as of course my friends code wont be given away for free, but will be substantially lower in cost than it is now per unit assuming we can shift a lot more units of it.
Ian

PS
I hope people don't think I'm moving away from the point of this thread here, as i think this is the only thing now holding it back as it appears many people are up for the integration of Magento, it just depends on how the licenses work which is what I'm trying to find out now, and I'm sure others reading this are equally as confused.

Hard to believe you spent 6 hours with that discussion and came out thinking it was about GPL vs Commercial. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Commercial = $  <-- That is okay - the GPL does not restrict you from commercially benefiting from code so licensed.

GPL requires GPL-compliant licenses for compatibility <-- That might be what your concern is?

I am not a lawyer. I do not represent Joomla!. If you have licensing questions about the GPL, the previous link also also has an email address you can use to pursue this discussion. Marius also contacted the FSF and received prompt response. Of course, one should also consult their own attorney. Talking to a complete stranger in a public forum probably isn't of much value for a serious business. 

Now, with all due respect, I would like to conclude this discussion with you. Hopefully, I have given you some ideas that might be helpful. I just don't have time for more discussion on this.  The resources I shared will be far more valuable to you than discussing this with me, further, anyway.

All the best,
Amy

da8iwr,
If this could be done, I'm sure all of us that want it could create a "chip in" http://www.chipin.com/ and donate to the project for it to get done. I would happily chip in to get an e-commerce only Magento to work in Joomla.

This is exactly the sort of thing i was looking for (and didnt know there was a website for it), the only thing im worried about is if things go wrong, as im sure we all know that some projects just dont go to plan.

Of course i am never going to turn any support down, but i was thinking about paying for it myself upfront, and then using the members money and any other donations to pay for the upgrades to be added.

I have never had any plans on making money from this, i just dont want to be out of pocket, as im sure we all have mortgages, cars and women to keep happy.

Also as i said on another thread, any excess money could be held in a pot, so we can put up a wish list of things to be added to the system, stuff like a real accounts systems, payment gateways, affiliate system, tag cloud system to relate products together and hundreds of other added features. Then as we need them we can use the money to pay people to make them and to kind of fast track the system, this will make it a commercial community system rather than commercial or open source system. There could be a quite simple bidding system added, just like joomlancers.com that would allow anybody to put in a bid and tell us what they will do.

These will all be downloaded and added like the Joomla extensions system by any member of the project.

I have sent an email to the licence guys as i am completely stumped at what licence this would fall under, as i feel it is half way between the 2. If/when i get the reply ill drop it on here for you all to see.

Am i going in the right direction here?

And Amy, thanks for your help, sorry if i came across as badgering you for info, but once you get somebody in the corner, its great to interrogate them

Thanks again
Ian

I think the guys that created Magento should be rich if what I saw in the admin area of it is anything like what the stable production version will be. If there's a chipin created, let me know. 

That's really kind, thanks! 

And, more importantly, thank you for contacting "the license guys." People like you and Marius are doing more than you might think to help our community by being willing to work out these licensing details. I was so pleased when Marius found a way to do what he wanted to do - and to also comply. I hope very much you will find that same narrow path to connect these environments.

All the best with your project,
Amy

Whats do people here think of making an entirely new system, a full Joomla 1.5 system rather than taking other peoples ideas?

This way it will do exactly what it is needed to do, rather than what we get given.

Financially helped community projects are extremely powerful.

@Amy
No probs at all, and so do I, as i have a whole pile of clients here very pissed of with virtue mart, who would be very happy to move to something faster, simpler and more featured with stuff they want rather than what they are given

Why has a shopping system got half an accounts system?
Why cant we add extra fields to the products so more info can be added to comparison sites, surely that's the future of ecommerce
Why is there no affiliate system
Why cant multi sites be set up from the same db
Why cant other users of the site have mini shops on the same shop, like a department store

I could go on forever, as these are things that are really needed by commercial shops!

If you need developers you can count me in 

I think an integration of magento would be very tricky (forget about the updates) and the i-frame solution would probably not work.
Why not wait for a stable version and fork it ?

Hi everyone,

You probably have not heard of us from the Freeway eCommerce platform yet because we have only just started to promote our software  but we offer a very advanced GPL shopping solution and have just announced that we are building a series of extensions for Joomla!. Here is the post:http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,249056.0.html

We will have a very powerful solution for Joomla! by the end of this month and a fully integrated shopping cart checkout process by the end of February.

If you would like to check out Freeway, you'll find it a friendly group of people.

Cheers,

Damian

I didn't know anything about the http://www.openfreeway.org products for Joomla... I hope to learn more on that. Please when ready for 1.5 version post here!