Joomla is about to die!

dizt3mp3r · Post by **dizt3mp3r** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:30 pm

What has happened to the popularity of Joomla is very easy to explain. Back in 2009 Joomla 1.0 was popular due to having complete functionality, a friendly back end and plenty of stability through regular upgrades. From Mambo to Joomla 1.0.15 it was a good CMS for anything from simple to complex sites.

With 1.5 the Joomla team wanted to dump the old mambo legacy and did so at the expense of stability and continuity. This is the approach they used for all upgrades from this point on. Each upgrade became a migration with a virtual site rebuild from scratch. They abandoned and closed support for the older product leaving those that could/would not upgrade in the lurch. With each upgrade requiring a rebuild it became harder to justify building a site in Joomla knowing you would have to tell your client that he'd need to rebuild it in 18 months. This is a sure-fire way to alienate even your most loyal adherents. Anyone looking to choose a stable technology for a client would simply look at Joomla and say - AVOID. You'd be sacked if you told them they'd have to migrate their whole site in 18 months, in fact you wouldn't get the job in the first place.

If you were looking for a tool to build a quick site for a small organisation, Joomla 1.0 was perfect as it was stable and easy to build with future stability in mind. But that was all blown away. Would I suggest building small sites with Joomla 2.5/3.0 - NO!. I hate to say it, but I would choose wordpress.

-oOo-

The Joomla team are a bunch of developers who work on the things they want to, and as a result priorities are decided by individuals with the result there is no corporate goal. That is why we only get piecemeal end user changes from seemingly major structural upgrades. I personally have never been asked by any client for any of the new features that have been added since J1.0. Better categories and ACLS are really the only changes that have made any external difference, the rest has just been smoothing processes here and there and adding minor functionality. I realise it has taken a lot of work to recode, rejig frameworks but frankly the end result of all that means little to end users. If I log in to a Joomla 2.5 site, then to a Joomla 1.0 site do I see major improvements over the old system? The Joomla 1.0. site is snappy, much quicker, easy to use, less corporate looking and is so much easier for a PHP/javascript programmer to modify/hack. All these years of change and the end result does not 'seem' to be that great.

The problem is the development team who are very clever but caustic and opinionated bunch whose presence on any other forum would have them named and shamed as trolls. They have been far more involved in arguing incessantly (and viciously) as to the best method of doing things, whereas it might have been better to choose what was the best thing to do for the end user and simply choose any method to achieve it. Anyone who browses the support and development forums of the Joomla world will see that is a deeply fractured and unhappy place to be. The dev forums are almost disfunctional.

Joomla will fail, it is failing now, strangely Joomla is dying because of the developers involved who are doing most of the work. The Joomla dev team has spent a lot of time achieving a lot. The trouble is, it just isn't what anyone wanted.

It is time for a FORK.

ranwilli · Post by **ranwilli** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:21 pm

You have a right to your opinion, but i respectfully disagree.

I stipulate that any time you add complexity to anything, you will irritate some users. Beyond that, we don't agree on much if anything.

dizt3mp3r · Post by **dizt3mp3r** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:11 pm

You know, I don't think you need to worry as to whether we agree or not (though very politely done indeed), we should be worrying more about perceptions of Joomla and what has caused them. There is a feeling that joomla is dying, it is out there, I am not making it up.

There is also a feeling that Joomla is unstable and there are 'real' reasons as to why.

As to the caustic natures of the developers (perhaps only some) you should have read some of the vicious comments on the [email protected] group only today and yesterday.

I try not to say anything that isn't perceived as being apparent by myself and others and I tend not to be vociferous on these forums. Sometimes a point needs to be expressed so that the Joomla development crowd can see which way the wind is blowing.

Joomla is no longer 'together'.

ranwilli · Post by **ranwilli** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:20 pm

So by calling for a fork, you're aiming to put it back together?

I am aware that the Joomla Dev Google Group can be an emotional place, so what? These are people discusssing their livelihoods.

Really, concentrate on making great websites, for which Joomla is ONE of the best tools out there, and don't waste your energy trying to incite a riot.

Oh, and by all means fork the project if you feel you and your followers have the intellect and will to solve the "issues" that you percieve. It's the way of Open Source.

dizt3mp3r · Post by **dizt3mp3r** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:50 pm

Not quite so politely that time...

I won't be forking the project as personally I'm not sure where I'd fork it, 1.5, 2.5... The only real reason I can see for forking is to stop the acrimony and return to a positive 'feel'.

There are some CMS where there is a feeling of positivity from the community and the dev. team, they have a wind beneath their sails. That positivity has definitely left the dev. forums.

I simply perceive the feeling that Joomla is not the place to 'be' anymore.

I also don't believe that Joomla is the right choice for small sites anymore, bigger sites, yes, but once upon a time it could be used as a site building tool for both small to big sites. Knowing how much work it is to regularly migrate, upgrade, secure, reinstall I would be wrong to select it for my small clients. In fact most of my clients are small.

ranwilli · Post by **ranwilli** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:47 am

dizt3mp3r wrote:...

I also don't believe that Joomla is the right choice for small sites anymore, bigger sites, yes, but once upon a time it could be used as a site building tool for both small to big sites. Knowing how much work it is to regularly migrate, upgrade, secure, reinstall I would be wrong to select it for my small clients. In fact most of my clients are small.

In this we can agree. If in your opinion, Joomla puts your clients at risk, then you are obliged to consider alternatives. I wish you well in that regard, but I guess I still don't understand your characterization(s) of the changes in Joomla.

My clients are large, small, and everywhere in between. I have yet to have one of them say they don't appreciate and desire Nested Categories, Responsive Design, Content Versioning, Dual Factor Authentication, etc., etc. in their websites.

I dare say you might want to re-examine your view of these "features" to see what you may have missed.

EVERY website, no matter the owner, needs to be versatile and secure.

New Airplanes are much more complex than Ford TriMotors, and having ridden as a somewhat reluctant passenger in both, I will take complex every time.

dizt3mp3r · Post by **dizt3mp3r** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:15 am

Thanks for your constructive criticism of my earlier point, I will certainly reassess my own thoughts about Joomla in the near future when I feel long term stability has been achieved.

There are currently some very positive discussions on the dev group as to how to resolve the negativity there, I really hope it bears fruit.

sugarandspice35 · Post by **sugarandspice35** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:01 am

I don't think Joomla is anywhere close to dying, but I would like to give my two cents.

Personally, I think it is about time Joomla looked to grow and expand beyond what is offered universally through other major CMSs (Wordpress, Drupal in particular), in order to become slightly more aimed at developers and larger enterprises as well as more inexperienced/basic users. Wordpress is.... okay... but it has its flaws. Honestly, Joomla is a much better alternative to Wordpress when it comes to running a comprehensive website which isn't solely a blog. But bare in mind that though Joomla has somewhat ease of use, Drupal's functionality and overall suitability as the CMS of choice for mid-larger enterprises results in its superiority to Joomla in that area. I think Joomla should retain and continue to simplify the user experience for administrators and developers, whilst truly revamping and integrating the core features and inner functionality which is required for that top security and scalability that Drupal offers. I am not a Drupal developer presently, was in the past, but Joomla has several strengths that I think it can improve upon to sort of hold that top spot when it comes to choice of CMS.

dizt3mp3r · Post by **dizt3mp3r** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:36 pm

I don't think you can have a CMS that is master of everything, Joomla was a good CMS for content-rich lower to mid-range sites. Wordpress proved that you have to focus on a sector to be successful in it. Joomla has moves steadily 'upstream' and that is a strength and a weakness. I would no longer specify it for a lower end sites due to the overall complexity/unfriendliness of the back end for novice users and the need for far too frequent major upgrades/migrations. Also, the need to retrain when the back end changes is a disadvantage. When Joomla 1.0 came out it fitted the bill. 1.5 was an attempt to grow up but it also lost speed, familiarity and it didn't quite fit the bill for smaller sites. As Joomla has moved on it has definitely lost touch with the small site builders, I would choose Wordpress every time and I am a died-in-the-wool Joomla man.

Having 'Joomla' plastered all over your own site is no longer the selling point it used to be. You wouldn't be sacked for specifying Wordpress for those smaller sites but you might be sacked for specifying Joomla.

Joomla needs to move upmarket firmly if that is what it means to do, to compete with Drupal and the like. Abandon the smaller sites and focus on the mid-range.

There may be room for a Joomla 'lite' to focus on the smaller sites. There may even be a case for bringing back Joomla 1.0 to fulfil that brief. Fun icons, loads of extensions, a new name. I, for one, would seriously go for it.

KathleenCollins · Post by **KathleenCollins** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:06 am

With WordPress available so easily, I too think Joomla is slowly dying despite it being a really good platform.

Paaltomo · Post by **Paaltomo** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:43 am

I like how there was a spike right after the initial post was made, and this thread still continued: http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/joomla.org#trafficstats

nailson_imgn · Post by **nailson_imgn** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:41 pm

Indeed! Joomla!'s rank in Alexa's has raised! Based in some "arguments" presented by the OP, Joomla! no longer is dying

Come on, people. This has to be some sort of joke from the OP and I bet he is actually ROFL. These kind of trolling/flaming happens every now and then. BTW The Lounge seems to be the perfect place for this thread.

[OFF TOPIC]
Joomla! has never been better. It is now better documented, easier to update, has a clear roadmap. I must admit I completely dislike the 3.x admin UI though

dizt3mp3r · Post by **dizt3mp3r** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:13 pm

Joomla is no longer the trendy CMS to choose and many previous users have been alienated by the work (and cost) needed to regularly migrate and the complete abandonment of support for previous versions (which really annoys the owners of those sites that can't easily update).

Many have abandoned Joomla that would otherwise have stayed loyal. It is also too big and bloated to offer to small site owners and as a result can be very slow to operate/function. Experience has shown that just like Windows, as it has grown it hasn't operated more efficiently...

dizt3mp3r · Post by **dizt3mp3r** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:15 pm

re: The new UI interface :

Changes to UI should always be optional. The back end changes require retraining and loss of familiarity/slower work. If the chages are that good then they should sell themselves and cause users to use them by default. It should NEVER force them.

If Joomla does die it will be due to a combination of its alienation of the customer base, loss of the zeitgeist for potential new users, not just technical issues such as speed, solidity, ease of use &c.

Never alienate your existing user base.

nailson_imgn · Post by **nailson_imgn** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:00 pm

dizt3mp3r wrote:re: The new UI interface :

Changes to UI should always be optional. The back end changes require retraining and loss of familiarity/slower work. If the chages are that good then they should sell themselves and cause users to use them by default. It should NEVER force them.

I can't disagree. This will be a major problem for existing users and developers. If people don't want to drastically change their admin UI, they will lose the security features from the next LTS version. And the harm is already done: Joomla! is using bootstrap 2 which is very outdated and incompatible with version 3, so I can see some more trouble coming in the future.

Still, I personally think that Joomla! has done some major improvements as well and I sincerely doubt Joomla! is in any kind of critical situation. I think the needs of the existing user base should be taken more seriously though.

stutteringp0et · Post by **stutteringp0et** » Fri May 30, 2014 1:18 am

@nailson_imgn
You've hit upon part of my major issue with the latest Joomla changes. It seems that all focus is on adding new features, with no regard to how it affects developers and their existing extensions.

The move away from MooTools towards jQuery is a big hit for me. Early versions used MooTools because it was technically superior to jQuery - but jQuery popularity led to Joomla dropping the superior library for the popular one. Of course, I'm biased towards MooTools - it's just more logical to me. Now I'm faced with updating my extensions to support both MooTools and jQuery (to support 2.5 and 3.x) - twice the work. When 2.5 finally reaches end-of-life, I'm stuck with an inferior JS library.

Bootstrap is also a sore spot for me. The integration of BS2 is so tight, the devs have stated that there isn't any way we'll see BS3 until the Joomla 4.x series (not sure how that's changed since the new development release strategy). So while the rest of the world has moved on to BS3, Joomla is stuck with BS2 for the foreseeable future. It didn't have to be this way. Someone made a decision to do this, and now we devs and integrators must pay for it, and convince our customers that an unsupported BS2 is still OK for them.

Joomla 3.3 bit me a few days ago when I realized that an updated ChosenJS library (pretty form selects) removed a feature that some of my extensions use. I had to search the ChosenJS changelogs to find what happened - This revealed a difference in usage philosophy. ChosenJS devs believe their lib should be applied to specific elements - and elements where it isn't desired remain untouched. Joomla devs chose to implement it on all form selects, regardless. What I lost was the ability to exclude elements. Now I must allow them to be altered by Chosen, then apply a ChosenJS method to remove the alterations (terribly inefficient). This means I have yet another version test to perform in my extensions because earlier ChosenJS doesn't have the method - all within the same major Joomla version.

If Joomla is dying, it's suicide.

takeonepicture · Post by **takeonepicture** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:32 pm

Hello everyone, I hope this is not happening because I think Joomla is wonderful.

dhuelsmann · Post by **dhuelsmann** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:43 pm

Let's see, be more upscale
Three pages of examples of upscale http://community.joomla.org/labels/joom ... folio.html
3270 Government web sites built with Joomla! 204 countries Multinational Organizations (European Union, United Nations & World Health Organization) http://joomlagov.info/

Looks like a ways to go before Joomla needs to go into Hospice.

stutteringp0et · Post by **stutteringp0et** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:36 pm

It's getting harder and harder to sell it to customers. Lately, when I mention Joomla - they go elsewhere and have a wordpress site up within a few days.

Custom android and IOS apps put food on my table these days.

Najatuk · Post by **Najatuk** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:51 pm

One thing that people may not have thought of is that there is not as much necesity to visit the site as most updates can now be done directly throughg the interface...not so much time spent searching around.

Najatuk · Post by **Najatuk** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:18 pm

about 5 % of websites use Joomla, that is enormous

stutteringp0et · Post by **stutteringp0et** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:34 pm

1.33% use Joomla, 47.03% use wordpress

http://trends.builtwith.com/cms

DavidJ124 · Post by **DavidJ124** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:03 am

I have been using Zikula for my websites since the days of postnuke but unfortunately the Zikula project is all but gone for the ordinary user - so I have finally decided to move away. I opted for Joomla and have installed the latest version but having read this thread I am beginning to think I have made the wrong choice for my next CMS - can anyone convince me that I haven't ?

Chamira Athauda · Post by **Chamira Athauda** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:26 am

DavidJ124 wrote:.. but having read this thread I am beginning to think I have made the wrong choice for my next CMS - can anyone convince me that I haven't ?

Well, I don't think you made the wrong choice - but you probably read the the wrong thread to start with!

The pros and cons are all discussed here, but Joomla is not dying. It's evolving and has got to that stage when it is a major project with many people involved, and with a growing eco-system. All this means of course is that there will be some issues and disagreements - but this is an indication of a healthy vibrant project.

So what other CMS did you research and why did you chose Joomla in the first place?

Webdongle · Post by **Webdongle** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:56 am

coruja wrote:... and has got to that stage when it is a major project with many people involved, and with a growing eco-system....

Many people except for the end user. More and more I here from website developers how they will not use Joomla for their next project because the frequency of the update cycle and the problems (with 3rd party extensions with upgrades) is not cost effective.

Look at the forum and see how many posts are made by professionals compared to 2 years ago. Hobbyists like myself have time to mess around when an upgrade fails but for the professional that time costs money. And they are finding it difficult to justify passing on the cost for the frequent updates.

FlashRebel · Post by **FlashRebel** » Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:11 pm

I use Joomla for old projects ... during last one-two years I never started with Joomla new project, I think I m not alone ... I hope Joomla will wake up and I will happily use it for some projects again. Right now, it does not offers something ''special'' or interesting.
Afters years almost nothing changed in Joomla.

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