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Hi Amy

Have been working on the my site structure off and on during the last month and have read and reread your step by step explanation for creating sections, categories and menus for the World > North America > US > Florida > Miami > Articles (Nightlife In Miami) challenge question posted by TedM.

Found it very illuminating and discover some new concept each time i reread it 

However, have come across a stumbling block... will explain it in the context of what I want to do (couldn't think of an example that would fit the challenge question) - I think it relates to the problem of an article falling under multiple categories.

Am giving a brief structure of my site which is about books:

- What To Read - (Menu Item linked to a single article ?)

  - Award Winning Books - (Section)

    - Booker Prize Winning Books - (Category)

      - Book 1 - (Article)
      - Book 2 - (Article)
      - Book 3 - (Article)

  - Top 100 Lists - (Section)

    - BBC Top 100 Reads - (Category)

      - Book X - (Article)
      - Book Y - (Article)
      - Book 1 - (Article)

Now the problem I am facing is that "Book 1" about which I would be creating a detailed article with reviews etc falls in more than one category viz "Booker Prize Winning Books" as well as "BBC Top 100 Reads"

Such instances would be very common in the site that I have in mind because though I would be writing about a book only once.. i would like to present the same book in many different ways (categories) for ex - Award Winning, My Favourites, Genre, Theme etc

Would like to know how to tackle this within Joomla's framework. Would appreciate any help that I can get.

Thanks

Anirudh

Any time that you need the same article to appear in two Menu Items, you have a bit of a challenge. What is really needed is a tagging extension. I know of one coming for v 1.5 that I have already tested and it's very good.  Setting aside the tagging extension for a moment, you can do use this type of approach:

Create a URL for each book.

• Create one category called "Books."
• Create an article for each book.
• Create a menu item using an Article-Category-Blog type and link to the Category "Books."
• Specify a location for that menu module that is never included in your template.
• That way, Joomla! creates a URL for each book. You'll use that later (below).

Then, create a menu item for each "category" desired.

- Award Winning Books --> link it to an article that serves as a "menu landing page" that discusses and links each of the next set of menu items.
---- Booker Prize Books --> link it to an article that serves as a "menu item landing page" that talks about this particular prize and perhaps lists the books individually with links to the following articles.
--------- Book 1 article - use the URL created above.
--------- Book 2 article
--------- Book 3 article
---- Top 100 lists --> same type of page as the Booker page
--------- Book 4 article - use the URL created above.
--------- Book 5 article
--------- Book 1 article

Again, Anirudh, the basic point is very simple - do *not* treat the Section-Category as your hierarchy. It is just your Inventory Storage of articles - your hierarchy is your menu system.

Think about a "real" book store - it's the same thing. In the back room where they store the books, they have an inventory system that places all of the Book 1 copies in the same place. That way, when a clerk goes back to get a copy, they know where to get Book 1.

BUT, that book could be displayed in many places in the store. It could be in the "Novels" section and in the "Best Seller" section of the site. The way that it is shared with the bookstore visitor (be that in the front of the store or the menu items) is *not* the same way it is stored for inventory (be that in the backend of the store or in the category-section-article area.)

Does that help?
Amy

Hey Amy..... thanks a lot !!!
Didn't expect such a detailed reply so soon 

  I had thought that I had grasped that.... which is how I was able to plan a couple of more levels between "What to Read" and "Award Winning Books"... just didn't mention it in the brief structure for fear of complicating it...  .... but I guess the mistake I was making was restricting myself to the method given in the challenge question and trying to fit my requirements to it rather than the other way round.....


Now this opens up lots of possibilities and I think solves my problem..... will play with the approach outlined in your post and trouble you again in case I get stuck..... and btw the "real" book store analogy was great !!!

Thanks once again for helping out.....

Anirudh

Anirudh -

This is one of my favorite Joomla! subjects because I have never understood why so many people claim Joomla! has a three level restraint. So, I am always very excited to talk to others who see that there are better data design approaches. That's one more person sharing with (hopefully) ten more people a more liberating modeling technique. It spreads.

I looked back at your post and I realized something about my approach that I have not yet articulated. It has to do with section. I don't like it in the menu system at all. Section is great as long as you are using it for those people who create articles. It's a good way to separate a massive pile of articles into groups so that they can locate the article they want to work on. I do not like section used with site visitors by using it in the menu item or the front end in anyway. In doing so, that three level restraint starts to come into play.

So, thanks for helping me see that more clearly. Sections are for the backend - for organizing the inventory. Sections are not for the frontend and shouldn't be used in the menus IMHO.

I'll be interested in hearing your progress.
Amy

My "off-topic" post removed... 

Perhaps you might consider posting your request for a more formal "node-based architecture" in the wish list, Harry, rather than to take this thread that many are finding helpful off-topic.

Thank you for considering,
Amy

The above scares the living crapp out of me lol. It is no wonder joomla might be hard to grasp for a newbie when the most logical way of thinking structure is NOT a wise aproach.

If i want a structure for my site = it is obvious i want the users to be able to go to my sections.

My example:
-------------------------------------------------

Section 1 = News --> Menu link = News

Category 1 = Latest News --> Menu link = Latest News

Article 1 = News example 1
---------------------------------------------------

It means that the above example is not a wise aproach then??

But why is it then set up as an example in the demo content of a "thought of structured joomla site" ??

Organising and structuring a site should be easy - not a required 120 in IQ in order to get the grasp of it.....

I need to read more about this - but for now i am only scared of joomla being to complex in terms of organising a site without to much hokus pokus. At the same time i might have lost all the point in this thread - but i really am wondering about the "Section is not to wise to have as a link issue"....

First of all, don't miss the IMHO part of my comment. 

You are right on two accounts:

#1 - The UI of Joomla! *can* be improved. (I think the goal is 2.0 for massive improvements and I believe there are many intriguing visions on that floating around).

#2: I have a few problems with the sample content. There are examples (you listed some) of user generated duplicate content in the sample content. Not good. But, many people like sections and that capability should be shared in the sample content. I just don't like to use sections in my menu items - but there's nothing wrong with others using it. Another reason I don't like sections is the SEF URLs in J! v 1.5 for sections are not as pretty. I just don't use it.

But:

#1: I have an "average" IQ. So, if I can figure this out, others can, as well. I have found many with under 20 posts who naturally do this. It's encouraging.

#2: Seriously, this is not hokus pokus. It's just a discussion on a possible design approach. It might help some people to think about site organization. It won't work at all for others. No big deal. The cool thing about Joomla! is that it's flexible. If my ideas help someone, then it's the end of a good day. If they don't work - toss them aside! 

Thanks!
Amy

Edit: sample not example content.

Hi Amy

Thanx for your reply first of all, and i also now see your IMOH (sry for that 1)

For me as a user - i am of course really conserned about how joomla works in terms of SEO and this is also why i dont use the 1.3 version and patiently try to wait for the j1.5 to be stable before i get my site online again.

IF then using sections as links is not such a good idea = i think it should be expressed clearly in the sample content because of the fact that it is important to try to learn people about SEO right from the start (newbies like me). And telling them that if they use sections as menu links = they will not be to ok on the SEO part. Only my oppinnion

I thought of structuring my site like this:

Sections
------------------
News
Articles
Reviews
Tools'N'Tips
Entertainment
------------------------

Categories
----------------------
Poker News
Casino News
Poker Articles
Casino Artilces
Poker Reviews
Casino Reviews
Poker Tips
Casino Tips
+more categories
------------------------------

The above example is impossible then if i cant link to those sections in order to keep my fokus on SEO...

If i where to set up a structure like this:

Sections
-----------------
Poker
Casino
-----------------

Categories
--------------------
Poker News
Casino News
--------------------

it would really limit how much i can "be free" in terms of content items(news, articles etc) and i could not at all link to a part of my site wich contains the news from many categories..in 1 link..this of course because i cant link to more than 1 category for a link item (category blog layout)

But i am so lost in this now that i probably missunderstand it all, so sorry for that part - i will probably figure out this sooner or later

Only important thing for me is that if linking to a section is bad for SEO in joomla - it all gets really confusing...

Anyway - i shall not bother you with my "none-understanding" mind because i see that most people get this easy (that even scares me more lol). Anyone got a couple of IQ's left over to share btw? (hihi)

Amy - thanx anyway - aight

UPDATE: I found your PM Amy - i have answered it now...

I'm confused. 

Forget about SEO, for a moment, and tell me about your website. What types of information do you want on your website? (I am confused by your sections and categories. So, forget about sections and categories for the moment.)

It might be most helpful if you try to lay it out like I did above (when we were discussing continents and countries and states/regions and cities.) Show me what you want your menu items to look like. Also, for each menu item, tell me, will the menu item lead to a page that is: a) a link to more articles; or, b) a link to the article itself.

With that picture in mind, we can then talk about how you could use this type of methodology for storing your data in sections/categories.

Thanks!
Amy

Hi Amy

I will set up a demo site today and show you the structure i have always used for my site - even in the static days...

I think i am missunderstanding all of this so i'll try to explain my self a bit better when i get the demo pages up.. 2-4 hours i'll have it ready

A bit of info about my site though:
-----------------------------------------------------

A Online Poker Site wich will provide poker news, articles, reviews, tools and tips, tournament info, poker support, ++,, just about everything i know a good poker site needs.

It was a really popular site while i had it online with over 1000 members. But i also felt my site needed a new CMS platform cause the PHP Fusion system i used previously was to "light" and really buggy when starting to get a lot of members/trafick - so i put it down in order to provide a more profesional site -->> i chose joomla!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will provide you with a admin account so you can check it out if you want. (btw: this issue with structuring a site is the MOST important issue for me when building a site)

I'll b'back

lol lol lol,,, 2-5 hours i said - well, i got occupied with daily life ;)

I have set up a Demo Site now Amy - showing u the structure of my site as i COULD think of it to be. It could of course have a few other setting in terms of content/sections in the structure, but this way i now have provided it - is really a quite basic way of setting up a site like mine.

But, if this is wrong in terms of SEO when building a site, i really need some guidance i think :)

i can tell there is some SEO issues because my links get numbers attched to it that look strange in a readable way of thinking -->> example:
3wpoker.com/news/3wpoker-news/3-3wpoker-news/11-welcome-to-the-demo-of-new-3wpoker

I can provide you with an admin account per pm if u want Amy?

Thnx for checking up my thought of structure...

REMEMBER ALL THAT CHECKS THE SITE: DEMO ONLY/UNDER CONSTRUCTION

Hi Amy,

THE LIGHTBULB JUST WENT ON.    Thank-you!!!.

John

Hi all,

I have a question re this thread, but first I'd just like to make a couple of comments if nobody minds . . .

Although I'm very new to Joomla!, I've spent many, many hours reading the 'standard' tutorial web sites and lurking on these forums before plucking up the courage to post anything. I have to say that this thread has taught me more about how to use this software package and given me more ideas for web sites that everything else put together

. . . and for that I'd like to say a huge "thank you" to Amy and the many others who've contributed with excellent questions and advice. I sincerely believe that this thread should be a 'must read' for anyone new to Joomla!. Amy, if you're thinking of writing a book, please add me to your 'notice' list for when it's due out!!

With the information in this thread I've finally realised that site structure within Joomla! has almost nothing to do with Sections and Categories . . . in fact, Sections and Categories and of almost no importance at all. And the reason for that is that site structure is entirely dependent upon the menu system you choose to deploy

I had spent hours and hours and hours researching Sections and Categories, trying to figure out how to get my site taxonomy into just those two levels. Now I know the right way to look at things, site structure is just so much easier. On top of that, I realise that we're not just limited to the two levels of Sections and Categories, and in fact we're not just limited to three, four, five or six levels. Our site structure is actually open to have an unlimited number of levels, simply because the number of menus we can have leading to other menus is infinite. Very, very clever!

The reason I feel that this thread should be a 'must read' for everyone is that just understanding this one area of site development could save people hundreds of hours of confusion and hard work. It certainly did for me

Just one thing I need to ask though

One of the points raised earlier by Ted is the same issue I'm trying to resolve, and the solution outlined has me a little confused

I'm trying to get a site with a breadcrumb trail/site structure of the following type:

UK > England > Northern Region > Yorkshire > Leeds > Articles about Leeds

I can do this fairly easily with one menu leading to another etc, but the problem I have is with the breadcrumb trail. This starts of as UK then UK > England, but then changes to only allow the top couple of levels, so I end up with an article with the breadcrumb trail looking like this UK > Schools-in-Leeds

What I'd really like is something like UK > England > Northern Region > Yorkshire > Leeds > Schools-in-Leeds

The bit in the earlier post about 'parent item' is a little confusing because it wasn't necessary in the context of this post to expand on it. However, for the purposes of asking this question and for the reasons I've mentioned above, this post is well worth resurrecting!!!

Biggy

Glad to see lightbulbs going on. If YOU get it, or even if you DON'T get it, think about starting up an informal Joomla group in your home town area.  There's nothing like watching someone who GETS IT, show you what works, and what doesn't.

Okay, after a month of playing with Joomla, I will break down and read Anna's tips.   While I am able to grasp the menu items and build little, mini sites using static pages, I see some modules like latest news and most read, et al, all rely on categories, etc to render the threads, so I think I need to learn proper organization before moving forward.

This isn't very intuitive, though, in my humble opinion...seems to have been more complicated than it really needs to be. Or, perhaps I am still stuck in my previous life where the CMS allowed you to click on "Add" page and voila - new page. I then set the parameters (page title, description, keywords, parent page, navigational settings/menu location, etc), selected which modules to display on the page, drop-and-drag to change the locations between the content page, and that's it...

Thanks for the lead on the tops, Amy...will read tomorrow and see if the light goes on.

Just wanted to say thanks for this thread. 

I am getting ready to start work on a site that is actually multiple sites in one.  Websites for grassroots organizers in 50 states for a non-profit.

To keep the Home Page menu from being impossibly long I am thinking that I will simply use a map on the home page - click on a state on the map and go to that state's section.

Within their section, each state will have their own menu of a set number of items; probably
-Latest News
-Events
-Contacts
-Local Groups (only a possible - i.e. a state can have different active groups within their state)

Of course each state section has to have its own template because it will have to have its name in the heading (wondering if just creating different banners that would show up in the different sections would work as well)

Anyway - I am printing out this entire discussion to read a couple of times more as I plot.  Preliminary suggestions welcome.

Hats off to you all!