New: Joomla (1.5) vs. Drupal (6.x) for Newbies

[deleted user]

You have a tiny minority opinion on usability. Even Dries Buytaert doesn't agree with you. Watch the usability studies videos of user eye-tracking as they try to use Drupal. Read the reports. Note the top drupal module download: http://drupal.org/project/admin_menu_dropdown

There's nothing to dispute. The Drupal UI is B-A-D Bad. Really bad. It's very heartening there is no denial about this at the top--it bodes well for Drupal's future.

http://buytaert.net/usability-usability-and-usability
http://drupal.org/usability-test-univer ... -solutions
http://groups.drupal.org/files/DrupalUs ... Report.pdf

[Beach_Sales]

I am very aware of the eye-tracking test but these are NEW users and there is no dispute it could be better but it is terribly disingenuous to portray it as so deeply flawed that it damages the usability to the point of trumping all the benefits. And most of the confusion on the Drupal admin side come from A) The fact that the admin interface looks like the front-end (yes stupid) and B) The odd terminology that Drupal employs around pretty basic functions (again, node, taxonomy, page).

Drupal folks are tackling this problem with gusto as we speak for Drupal 7.x because they do recognize that ease of adoption is key.

It is a hurdle for new users, yes. Should it be used to bludgeon people away from using the platform? Given its relative ease and power after you become familiar with it. Absolutely not.

[deleted user]

Yes, Drupal 7.0 aims to rectify what I and apparently many others feel are some of its main weaknesses. This is excellent. I can't wait.

Until then, it is inhospitable to new users. Of course those are new users they had in the usability tests. The pool of people who have never used Drupal is huge and exactly the target audience Drupal wants to reach. Significant barriers to new users' entry in the UI (and also the clutter of drupal.org, for now) do represent a deep flaw for many--probably most--who do not have the time, ability, or desire to put up with the learning curve necessary for them to surpass those barriers. Additionally, despite a lot of experience behind the Drupal UI, I find it frustrating and tedious to do many tasks in it, especially when there are a lot of modules, despite having the admin dropdown menu installed, since the conceptual organization of the UI itself is convoluted and the new AJAX stuff doesn't cover every panel it's needed in.

I don't say this problem trumps all the benefits of Drupal in every case. I believe in client- and project-based, needs based software selection and web development that pays attention to resources and total cost of ownership--hence my list of circumstances when Drupal probably is or is not the best choice. What is disingenuous and simply wrong is to engage in special pleading for why one application should always be used--essentially because you're partial to it for your own reasons. Why not let clients try a variety of demos and match at least their primary needs with the system that will work best for them--and probably be the easiest to develop? I do find that most just need a standard CMS and Joomla makes sense as a CMS very fast, whereas other systems--especially Drupal--are deeply confusing. But if a client has social networking functions as a primary need, I give Drupal a boost, explaining the benefits and drawbacks to all the options.

[Beach_Sales]

I agree with almost all your points, especially about focusing on the needs of the clients and not trying to force a website/design solution on them. It is very easy to roll out a site in Joomla and I think that a failure to analyze the clients real and/or longer term needs might leave them stuck with a solution that was given to them because it was easy for the developer.

And Joomla, as an understatement, is a very capable solution for the needs of many (if not most) typical small businesses, individuals and non-profits, especially in situations where there is little or no technical experience available as resource.

Personally with the level of sophistication of the people whoare building Joomla sites and posting on this forum, they should take a hard look at Drupal as well, especially when they are looking for social networking functionality OR THINK they might want it in the future. This goes back to your thorough run down of client questions.

Also I have found that it is very possible to use Drupal for less tech savvy/sophisticated clients as shield them from a lot of the confusing admin issues by creating a "sub-admin" role that has very limited administrative powers. And then of course a healthy dose of training.

[deleted user]

Also I have found that it is very possible to use Drupal for less tech savvy/sophisticated clients as shield them from a lot of the confusing admin issues by creating a "sub-admin" role that has very limited administrative powers. And then of course a healthy dose of training.

That's a good idea in any system. I usually set up front-end editing controls in Joomla that are all many people will use, and I know others do the same.

[dizzi]

Why not let clients try a variety of demos and match at least their primary needs with the system that will work best for them--and probably be the easiest to develop? I do find that most just need a standard CMS and Joomla makes sense as a CMS very fast...

This is a fascinating discussion lads, I am learning quite a bit from it . However regarding the old adage involving a nail being whacked on the head with a hammer, I think that the above quoted statement encapsulates quite neatly.

Looking forward to some more of the interesting stuff .

Regards

[lovedams]

nice topic ...

hmm but im still dizzy .
still in my mind " which one works faster ? " i am still picking on joomla or drupal . becouse im haveing a big community site without CB just joomla and phpbb . i wonder how will drupal works .

[deleted user]

Which is faster--it depends on how you set up caching, compression, and other things. Several people have done different tests comparing joomla, drupal, and other systems' speed.

Dries B. (Drupal creator) did one such comparative test in 2006, so it's with Drupal 4 and Joomla 1.0:
http://buytaert.net/drupal-vs-joomla-performance

I don't know if this is still relevant for Drupal 5 and 6, but you should take note of his remark that "Drupal can only serve cached pages to anonymous visitors (users that have not logged on). Once users have logged on, caching is disabled for them since the pages are personalized in various ways."

[deleted user]

Here's a more recent speed test comparison:
http://alldrupalthemes.com/blog/joomla- ... rison.html

In this test, Drupal wins. The people doing the test are obviously invested in Drupal, adn it appears they did not make use of Joomla's full caching abilities.

My perception as a user is that Drupal loads faster. However, Joomla sites I used are typically handling *a lot* more content per page than the Drupal sites I frequent.

[HarryB]

I don't know if this is still relevant for Drupal 5 and 6, but you should take note of his remark that "Drupal can only serve cached pages to anonymous visitors (users that have not logged on). Once users have logged on, caching is disabled for them since the pages are personalized in various ways."

Drupal 6 does not cache "content" (think Joomla! 1.5 articles here) for logged-in users but it does cache "blocks," which are more or less the equivalent of what Joomla! 1.5 displays in module positions (menus, core and 3rd party modules) for both logged-in and anonymous users.

[lovedams]

Here's a more recent speed test comparison:
http://alldrupalthemes.com/blog/joomla- ... rison.html

In this test, Drupal wins. The people doing the test are obviously invested in Drupal, adn it appears they did not make use of Joomla's full caching abilities.

My perception as a user is that Drupal loads faster. However, Joomla sites I used are typically handling *a lot* more content per page than the Drupal sites I frequent.

hmm
okay , what i get here is joomla 1.5 and drupal 6
drupal is way much faster then joomla but . joomla is way far easyer to use rather then drupal ,
joomla has much more supporters = more development rather then drupal
more development = faster cms is the late game of cms

handling *a lot* more content per page than the Drupal sites I frequent ?

can u explain again ? btw thanks of your replay .

[deleted user]

What I meant is, Drupal templates ("themes") are generally very simple with half as many module ("block") positions as the typical Joomla template. Drupal extensions ("modules") are rarely focused on content display and offer very little eye candy (slideshows, image faders, fisheye menus, etc.). With Joomla all that stuff is very common.

So when I say my experience of Drupal sites (my own and others') is that they seem to load faster than Joomla sites (my own and others'), I suspect some of that has to do with the fact that the Joomla sites are pulling a lot more data and processing resources.

Drupal's URL aliasing ("SEF") is vastly superior to Joomla's, and I would guess it is more efficient too, but I really don't know.

[lovedams]

well lets just have a coffee and sit down relax a bit and wait for masters to explain
hmm i just love joomla looks. becouse my site have just about mas 200 online people every sec.
and im useing a joomla . when i saw rumors about drupal its makes me wanna learn about drupal
but as i see drupal is still lack of supporters rather then joomla! hehe .

[deleted user]

Drupal has plenty of support and development. It is quite a different culture than Joomla's, however.

[lovedams]

well drupal development of addon is much secure then joomla however..
i wonder why ..
addings.
http://www.milw0rm.com/search.php
try drupal and joomla

[deleted user]

not really. I get security updates from drupal, joomla, and secunia sends them for both. They're both constantly hit with exploits on third party extensions. that has nothing to do with the quality of either system. they're popular, so they're big targets. and 3pds are not always so careful.

[eaton]

Drupal 6 does not cache "content" (think Joomla! 1.5 articles here) for logged-in users but it does cache "blocks," which are more or less the equivalent of what Joomla! 1.5 displays in module positions (menus, core and 3rd party modules) for both logged-in and anonymous users.

Well... Kind of. Drupal offers a reusable caching API that can be used by any plugin to store its 'expensive' data. (Full disclosure: I wrote an article about it a while ago.) Out of the box, Drupal automatically caches full pages for anonymous users and the contents of specific blocks for all users. Many plugins, though, use the caching system for their own data. The "CCK" module that allows users to add custom fields to content editing forms stores is data in a variety of tables for proper database normalization, but caches the "fully built" article so it doesn't have to execute the more expensive database calls each time.

This shared caching API is also swappable -- so any cache calls that use Drupal's API can be redirected to, say, memcached rather than a database table. On high-load systems that's one of the common ways to take a LOT of load off the database.

In any case, that flexibility is why it's often difficult to say what is an isn't being cached on a Drupal site -- most modules are doing a lot of their own caching internally, and the "anonymous page caching" is just the first line of defense for high-load sites.

[eaton]

well drupal development of addon is much secure then joomla however...

I'm not sure I would say that. PHP can be used to write insecure code no matter what framework is being used -- in many cases, it's about how rigorous developers are in using the secure APIs that the frameworks provide. At least in Drupal's case, the vast majority of third party security holes boil down to developers that don't use the secure db_query functions, XSS removal functions, and so on when building their own plugins. Educating those developers is probably one of the biggest challenges for both the Drupal and Joomla! communities. (http://drupal.org/writing-secure-code is one of the central spots that Drupal devs get pointed to for questions like that, not sure qhat the equivalent is in Joomla!-land)

[brad]

not sure qhat the equivalent is in Joomla!-land)

http://developer.joomla.org/
http://developer.joomla.org/tutorials.html
http://developer.joomla.org/documentation.html
http://forum.joomla.org/viewforum.php?f=231
.. and even: http://docs.joomla.org


FYI the search box up the top of this forum also searches those sites.

[lovedams]

well i just love to sit down in this thread its a nice topik..
hmm i was wandering,
im bulding a project
its a community site.
a big one .

anycase this site have allready have thousand of mambers.
well i am looking for a new server spec for joomla ..
questions :
1.i was wondering im useing a cent os and is the server os change the performa in joomla or drupal ?
2.what about webserver like cpanel and others does it effect joomla ? or drupal ? is there any diffrent ? ( i guess no )

[brad]

1.i was wondering im useing a cent os and is the server os change the performa in joomla or drupal ?
2.what about webserver like cpanel and others does it effect joomla ? or drupal ? is there any diffrent ? ( i guess no )

I suggest you start another thread on that topic.

[eaton]

not sure qhat the equivalent is in Joomla!-land)

http://developer.joomla.org/
http://developer.joomla.org/tutorials.html
http://developer.joomla.org/documentation.html
http://forum.joomla.org/viewforum.php?f=231
.. and even: http://docs.joomla.org

Read a number of those pages, and they seemed like general overview pages rather than security best-practices. Is there some sort of one-stop URL for people who want to find out how to write secure plugins? It'd be cool to point developers to something like that in the same way that I do with Drupal.

[brad]

Use the following search string: secure components

.. and search using the search box up the top. You can then refine it to the Documentation site if you like.

Feel free to chip in and contribute if you feel we do not have enough information available.

[mitchlr]

Interesting discussion! Food for thought.

[wesku]

I have been working with both Drupal and Joomla for few years in a number of different client projects. They are very different products and are both really good at what they do.

My way of making decision between Drupal, Joomla and Wordpress comes down to what is required. Wordpress is obvious choice for blogging sites, Joomla for small and simple sites and Drupal for complex big projects. I find that it is a lot easier (and cheaper) to get a small site up and running with Joomla since it comes with a lot of embedded functionality. Drupal is almost useless "out of the box", but offers excellent platform for building complex sites.

For newbies Joomla is almost always a better solution. On other hand for professional web site builders with enough time to invest learning Drupal the investment is well worth it.

There are always some cases where building small and agile Ruby on Rails application is the best choice, but that's off topic...

P.S. Have look at http://www.waterandstone.com/downloads/ ... Survey.pdf for some interesting numbers.

[SD_JH9833]

Here's an interesting way to gauge general popularity.

Drupal Vs Joomla

http://www.google.com/trends?q=Drupal%2CJoomla

Btw; I prefer Joomla

SD

[deleted user]

That's what Ric Shreves did.

Do you prefer Joomla across the board, or does it depend on the particular needs of a new website development project?

[bluepineapple]

I've been using Joomla for about 8 months and I really like everything about it. I'm a designer so I guess Joomla is the side I'm supposed to be on. It's extremely easy for my clients to use which makes my job a dream. Well on Halloween, one of my clients got hacked. They didn't update to the newest version and were exposed and needless to say, I didn't make it to my party that night. Since then, we've had some issues with getting things to work, which led my boss - who is a programmer - to task me with exploration of Drupal, which led me to this string.

I know we are on the Joomla site so I'm looking for objective opinions. As far as security (if updates are installed when they become available) which site is less vulnerable to attack? Are we less likely to face the fallout of a hacker on Drupal, because that's what my boss seems to think. I just want some additional input.

Let me know what you guys think!

[deleted user]

With Drupal 6 now every extension you put in plus the core will alert you immediately of available upgrades and how critical they are. So you could say any hacking that happens now with Drupal is due to server setup issues, old versions of Drupal, or people who don't update stuff.

Which is really the whole problem all along with any system. Drupal is just making it easier now for careful people to be careful.

Pure speculation: Joomla may get hacked more if it is more popular and more widely used. Bigger target. Joomla's ease probably attracts more of a n00b element as well--people likely to be more vulnerable and not know it.

[SD_JH9833]

I just had a scan of that PDF, that's quite comprehensive. Thanks Ric.


I see pro's and con's either way but I'm familiar with Joomla so I may be biased.

SD

That's what Ric Shreves did.

Do you prefer Joomla across the board, or does it depend on the particular needs of a new website development project?