New: Joomla (1.5) vs. Drupal (6.x) for Newbies

[deleted user]

@raulreynoso

Your survey asks for personal and business information unnecessary to poll people about software.

Additionally, if you are selling clients a version of Joomla 1.5 with your own extensions, how is all this licensed, and where are these extensions available?

[raulreynoso]

@dpk

The personal and business information is optional. People don't have to fill it out if they don't want to. So if that kept you from filling it out, please be aware that you can skip it. If you did fill out the survey, thank you very much for your input.

However, I think the information is useful data to have. I ask people for their email in case they want to be informed about the results of the survey. Other information is useful for analysis.

I ask about the nature of people's experience with content management systems. Clearly this may influence their perception of the advantages and disadvantages of one CMS relative to the other. This in turn can shed light on what kind of projects each CMS is best suited to. Or at least, what kind of people seem to prefer one or the other.

Additionally, any survey should have some demographic information about the respondents. This is the only way you can check whether your sample is representative. Since I am posting on a Joomla site, the responses I get would be considered a “convenience sample” rather than a representative sample. Having demographic information lets you see how closely your sample mirrors the larger group. So you can evaluate to what extent selection bias is affecting the results.

As for selling clients a version of Joomla 1.5, I don’t do that. Actually the link is old, so I’ve removed it. My idea was to have pre-established packages for different types of clients. It didn’t work out as everyone has very particular individual needs. On the page describing the CMS, it said that it was open source software, so it would have been distributed just like joomla.

[deleted user]

OK, cool.

FYI, at the point when the J! questions start in the survey, you can only select one answer from each column for the whole page. Or so it is with the Chrome.

[raulreynoso]

I was wondering why no one was filling that stuff out. Stupid mistake on my part. Thanks for pointing that out. It is working properly now.

[mike123acc]

As interesting as this thread is (I'm not too familiar with Drupal), I notice a number of the comments regarding which does a better or worse job seem to be related to a large extent to that particular posters knowledge of the system.

I also noticed this with the comparisons I found around the net when I was looking a few years ago.

My personal opinion is that direct full-system comparisons, especially regarding being 'best / worst' is not useful, as it could simply be the user is less familiar with that aspect in one system or the other.

However, highlighting particularly strong features of both could be. I think someone mentioned earlier in the thread, the important thing is not which is best, but which may be more suited to a particular purpose.

[deleted user]

That is true. It seems there are few people who have at least decent working knowledge and experience with several major CMS-type applications who are also not in some way (emotionally, ideologically, commercially) tied to one application and/or its community. So you hear from people who are irrrationally partisan, or they've been upset by some aspect of one system or its community. Because of the learning and time investment involved in working with more than one system, even professional developers and designers tend to stick with one system and may suffer from myopia or bias when they talk about it in relation to others. It seems rare--unfortunately--to hear the "different tool for different jobs" attitude, which means designers/developers are passing the cost of their ignorance and bias to their clients when their clients are not informed and choosy about the software that drives their site.

This situation is not only unethical; it inhibits progress by keeping developers, designers, and average users in the dark about the limitations of the system they've bonded with. It keeps informed competitive pressures from forming within and between "rival" development and user communities.

[darb]

That is true. It seems there are few people who have at least decent working knowledge and experience with several major CMS-type applications who are also not in some way (emotionally, ideologically, commercially) tied to one application and/or its community. So you hear from people who are irrrationally partisan, or they've been upset by some aspect of one system or its community. Because of the learning and time investment involved in working with more than one system, even professional developers and designers tend to stick with one system and may suffer from myopia or bias when they talk about it in relation to others. It seems rare--unfortunately--to hear the "different tool for different jobs" attitude, which means designers/developers are passing the cost of their ignorance and bias to their clients when their clients are not informed and choosy about the software that drives their site.

This situation is not only unethical; it inhibits progress by keeping developers, designers, and average users in the dark about the limitations of the system they've bonded with. It keeps informed competitive pressures from forming within and between "rival" development and user communities.

So good and correct analysis! One of the best post I have seen in my life!

[M4rc0]

I strongly disagree with three parts of the original review in this thread. In the following areas, I think Joomla, beats Drupal by a long way:

Administrator interface
Ease of Placing Content Areas in Templates
Prettiest Template/Themes

So true. When I read the Administrator interface of drupal is better I almost laughed.

Seriously, in the end who decides is not you but the client and I honestly can't think of my client liking drupal administration interface. It's not just the interface, but the template that I would provide for him would probably be weak if compared of what I can offer in Joomla.

It's not just the complexity but also joomla's template system learning curve is like none.

On the other hand, that are a few critical things that joomla lack:
- Core ACL. Not that bad since not many websites needs it.
- Horrible article managing system. Sections/Categories, so far all the clients that I presented how to work with content found it quite boring to have to have 1 section and to not be able to repeat categories or have subcategories or associate them with multiple sections etc etc etc. It's so much stuff that it lacks. My clients want more freedom and I want tags.
- Templates can get heavy. God I hate mootools (73kb???) and my clients usually complain that the site is slow. I turn off mootools, turn on cache, gzip, etc.. But If I have like 3 components/modules installed for example, I check the code and I see X css files and Y js files.
When I have the patience, I hack one by one by getting all that and putting in my template and removing lots of unecessary code. And please, Jquery.
- No updater. This is urgent to me.
- SEO a liiiitle bit tricky but still doable. Should be more efficient.

Also, Everything Eclipse Now asked joomla lacks:

1) I'm also interested in running XHTML strict sites with clean content code for careful CSS design experimentation. Which CMS would be best for that?

2) Does Joomla have an updater in core in 1.6? Drupal automatically notifies you of module and core updates, which would have prevented some of the security attacks mentioned previously in this thread.

3) Can I run multiple Joomla's in MAMP? How? Drupal allows multiple site support with the one install.

4) How good are the SEO modules/ext/add-ons whatever they are? Drupal's got rave reviews about SEO.

5) Also... I'm nervous about Joomla URL's... what's the rumour I've heard about them being a shocker to manage?

1) No. You will still find tables from modules output.
2) No, it doesn't.
3) Nope you can't. Joomla doesn't have this multisite capability that Drupal has.
4) Good enough.
5) Not so easy.

In my opinion, Drupal is more powerful but the cost to get all of it is too high for me. It's all about the type of the project, both of them are excellent choices. Wordpress is nice too, but for something smaller.

Drupal will be my choice hands down if my client wants something like a news site, with a good content organization, safe, fast. Good core features, comment and blog system. Good user administration. Maybe a community site I would consider Drupal as well (that digg-like module makes me drool).

Something that security,content and performance are very mandatory.

On every other choice I go for joomla. I mean, just look at the JED. The popular components. Virtuemart. Man, virtuemart!

I also find joomlas documentation, forum and oficial site much better.

Drupal's website look like a wikipedia to me, and try to find a module in that. No demo, no images, pure text and bad organization.

Joomla components and templating makes it stand it out. And that's why is so popular, users want eyecandy and something easy to use and learn.

[deleted user]

Drupal's website look like a wikipedia to me, and try to find a module in that. No demo, no images, pure text and bad organization.

I object! Wikipedia is wonderfully well-organized. Drupal.org is the worst thing on the planet. Fortunately they are revamping it. By god, they have *patch files* in download areas at drupal.org. For freaking templates AKA "themes."

[darb]

- Core ACL. Not that bad since not many websites needs it.

There are GMaccess french version and also Brazilian version NOIX with samba http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f ... 1#p1618741

- Horrible article managing system. Sections/Categories, so far all the clients that I presented how to work with content found it quite boring to have to have 1 section and to not be able to repeat categories or have subcategories or associate them with multiple sections etc etc etc. It's so much stuff that it lacks. My clients want more freedom and I want tags.

There are solutions for this soon... http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f ... 4#p1618754 hoping for something like vocabularies and terms too..

- Templates can get heavy. God I hate mootools (73kb???) and my clients usually complain that the site is slow. I turn off mootools, turn on cache, gzip, etc.. But If I have like 3 components/modules installed for example, I check the code and I see X css files and Y js files.
When I have the patience, I hack one by one by getting all that and putting in my template and removing lots of unecessary code. And please, Jquery

agree this is discussion long time ago too which js to use.

- No updater. This is urgent to me.

Solved. You can use Joomla Magic updater http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions ... 30/details

- SEO a liiiitle bit tricky but still doable. Should be more efficient.

This is in my opinion could be more of a long internal political reason in my opinion and comes back also how to structure future core dev of Joomla for the best of the whole Joomla community. Joomla want to be one of the cms and not dead about 2-3 years so how do you do that? We dont want to end up like AltaVista(Digital), RealMedia, Netscape etc and be history.

So this is maybe an example like one or several core dev also have their own baby to care and that is commercial history stopping the core dev of Joomla going forward as it should.

I also tried to start a discussion for model for contributing economically to core dev so they better focus their time, brains and focus to Joomla main core but seems nobody it interested to discuss a model like this..http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=366687

Well hope Joomla going in the right directions bcs when you grow so does the complexity and importance of future decsions.

[M4rc0]

An economical support would be great for Joomla indeed.

I heard Drupal has some sort of consortium since it's used in many big sites (bbc, mtv,..)

About the Joomla Updater, it doesn't work for me. Yes I created a topic long ago and gave up on it :P But this should be core, come on.
(EDIT: I see there's a new version out, going to try again soon. Thanks for the motivation )

Thanks for the links, I'm happy to see that Joomla content will be reformulated.

Just hope 1.6 comes out soon.

[designpakistan]

I find Drupal to be much simpler than Joomla.
Administering Drupal is very easy and changing templates too, all css elements are defined in max. two different files.

It is very difficult to go into css of Joomla.

[supremedalek]

Let me add my two cents.

First of all, I am a newbie on both drupal and joomla. But, I am trying to work with both about the same amount. Different from a lot of people here, I am actually building a site to a customer in joomla while making a personal site in drupal. My reasoning:

For the commercial site, I will not be involved with its daily workings; the customer will be doing that and I will be only called if something extra needs to be done. So, I wanted an admin interface someone who does not like computers would not feel threatened. joomla seems to fit this bill. One thing I did not like in joomla was the way you need to define the category/whatever each article you are typing first; that will take some time explaining. I just think it would be nice to have either a default setting or just not worry about it right now, but later on you can go back into the page all the articles are and then select them there. You know, something more free association like mediawiki.

For the personal site, right now I am not that concerned with how pretty the site is. The reason is that what I expect is that if I want this text and these menus and banners on the front page, any template I throw in will not second guess me. So, I am working more on the site structure and content. I will agree the admin interface has a ton of things but is not what I would want a non-technical customer loose on. Also, I found it very easy to create a page that will only suck data out of a database if being seen by someone who, say, logged in: throw the php code in a so-called block and then tell who can see that block and in which page. The other reason I chose drupal here is the taxonomy. I am still getting the hang of it but so far it seems to do my bidding. Next is to learn how to retrieve taxonomy info using my own php code so I can do something joomla does out of the box: pick news at random from a set. I really like that.

I am running both sites (customer's is right now a proof of concept) in my webhosting account (hostmonster if you need to know) and with both running the default themes/templates with not much graphics *I* added, the drupal site feels much faster. But that could be due to many things. I do not really care that much about the speed so long it feels nice.

I think it boils down to the right tool for the right job. I have 8 different screwdrivers that have very specific applications.

[darb]

About speed you can have help of Joomla performance http://www.joomlaperformance.com/ Query Cache plg and also disable plgs not used like search for different search types etc.

Set up the latest query cache nightly build dowload now qc_1.5_rev356.tgz 2009-Mar-29
together with caching set plgs in Joomla first

Cache Plugin CssJsCompress - check for template problems java script settings etc
http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions ... 50/details

also use SmartOptimizer that you can use for both Drupal and Joomla
http://farhadi.ir/works/smartoptimizer
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=433&t=344013

http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f ... w=previous

PNG-Lite Joomla 1.5 core Icon/Image Optimization Pack
http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions ... 35/details

I also see some speed improvement before by using this SEO patch but can not guarantee anything if its true http://www.joomlatwork.com/products/com ... onent.html

This should be really quick to fix..not more than 1-2 hour work you are done after reading too.

[M4rc0]

darb, but that requires some extra "work" (altho fast)

Drupal is fast by core, what about turning on the cache and also using smartoptimizer, can you imagine?
Joomla is quite slow by core, you need to remove the bloated mootools, pay attention of what you install, and some extra things (gzip, cache, smartoptimizer,..)

Also that Joomla Updater doesn't work for me. I hope 1.6 will have something like this.

Thanks for sharing your opinion supremedalek. Very usefull stuff.

[darb]

The magic update working fine. If not - you have some problem with your hosting environment and set up. I guess that you are on a shared hosting no?

I have not made or seen any tests about the latest Drupal and Joomla so I can not judge how they both compared with regards to performance issues from core set up.

Do you have any test numbers or url where they have done that test you referring to?

Would be nice to see this real figures so its clear that Drupal is faster from scratch really.

I believe you about bloated Mootools but thats the core path core devs took long time ago for J 1.5

[M4rc0]

Code: Select all

When caching is disabled Joomla can serve 19 pages per second, while Drupal can serve 13 pages per second. Hence, Joomla is 44% faster than Drupal. However, when caching is enabled Joomla can serve 21 pages per second, while Drupal can serve 67 pages per second. Here, Drupal is 319% faster than Joomla. In other words, Joomla's cache system improves performance by 12%, while Drupal's cache system improves performance by 508%. 

- InfoBeans whitepaper
- Joomla x Drupal performance comparison

If you google "joomla drupal benchmark" or "performance" you will find many.

You know these tests, they are never 100% correct and there are a few variables to consider. But overall Drupal is faster, no doubt of that.

I still think Joomla is better considering the points that we posted in this topic, but Drupal is surely something to consider. I have a project right now that I'm kind of regreting that I haven't done in Drupal instead of Joomla for example.

(OFF: About the Updater, I tried both in a dedicated host and in my local host (wich has anything that I could possible need) and still nothing. But that's another topic What we need is something core, official. Today I just updated 4 websites with the patch, and I have to be carefull with hacks/tweaks to not overwrite them.)

[stevetsi]

I've been working with Joomla since it forked off Mambo. I have experimented extensively with ModX, Drupal, Wordpress and Joomla (I have even setup MS Sharepoint, but that doesn't count here...). I have also built local test servers for countless other CMSs, CRMs, ECMs, etc.

As the senior web developer for a multi-million dollar company, I can tell you that the future of Open Source Content Management Systems lies in the great three:

* Joomla * Drupal * Wordpress *

Additionally, I now develop almost exclusively in Joomla 1.5.x.

Why?

Is it because Joomla does everything better than the rest? NO.
It is because it does many things very well, has a titanic world-wide following and developer support and is showing increasing development momentum both in the current 1.5.x branch and the interest surrounding the 1.6.x branch.

Developers:
Looking in the future, you owe it to yourself to look seriously into the Joomla Framework and MVC coding. NOTE: Joomla is a framework with which the Joomla CMS is built. That framework can be used to build any web-based application you desire. Google "Joomla Framework".

The extensions logic is second to none. Distinguishing between components, modules and plugins allows developers and end users to understand the difference between full-blown apps (components), customizable "widgets" (modules) which can be placed anywhere, and tools that interact with and modify content anywhere in your website (plugins).

Developers & End Users:
If you would like to install your own Blog, by all means, please download the latest version of Wordress (now 2.7.1).

Alright, this might hurt some ears, but... Wordpress is NOT the best *hosted* solution for end-users.

Let it be said once more, "Wordpress is not a CMS".

EXAMPLE: You run Wordpress. You have a widget. I want you to place that widget in an existing position on certain pages of your website and only show it for logged in users. Here's the clincher: You're not allowed to hack your template to pull this off!

In Joomla, you create the module and within the parameters, you simply highlight the menu links on which you want it to appear, you chose the template position in which you want it to show (cause that position is already coded in the template), and you choose the access rights.

Also...

Joomla 1.5.x currently has:

(a shortlist of high-demand features)
-Granular Access Control Layer provided by 3rd Party apps (JACLplus pro, Corephp Community Access)
-Version Control (Content Versioning - Free!)
-SEO & SEF (sh404sef - Free!) Oh, yeah, Joomla HAS built it in SEO.
-CCK (Yootheme's ZOO, Joomlaworks K2)

Joomla 1.6.x will bring:
-Granular Access Control Layer in Joomla Core

Here's what's really important to know:

Although many people believe that certain features are missing from Joomla, the framework exists to easily build these features into the core, or extend Joomla via component, module or plugin. The size of the JED (Joomla Extensions Directory) and the plethora of commercial template websites signal the undeniable fact that Joomla has a very bright future. As a developer for a company which profits off its website, it is critical that the time and money invested in development today, will show returns for years to come. Joomla, through its dedication to developers by maintaining reasonable backwards compatibility and being open with future feature proposals (Google "Joomla Whitepapers") is ensuring a stable, future-proof & (reasonably) backwards-compatible code-base.
In this era of economic turmoil and cutbacks, Joomla will become an increasingly popular for companies seeking to develop quickly & effectively, thereby reducing their overhead, all the while knowing that they are investing in a reliable long-term solution.

[deleted user]

Interesting stuff in this thread, much enjoyed.

Regarding the Infobeans "whitepaper" mentioned by M4rc0: it is a blatantly, obviously biased pile-o-crap. I am surprised that it did not receive the usual outcry wasted on insignificant blogs that criticize Joomla. InfoBeans purports to be a credible commercial web development company, and it certainly has enough competence with the visuals and English language to seem credible. However, they are Drupal-based and their descriptions of Joomla in the "whitepaper" are full of typical rhetorical nonsense and false statements of fact that do not belong in a document purporting to belong to the whitepaper gentre where objective analysis is supposed to be a primary trait.

[M4rc0]

Yeah..I have to admit that InfoBeans report seems quite old as well.
But I have my doubts about Joomla performance, really. Google doesn't tell me good things about it.

But man..is Joomla 1.6 going to kick ass or what

I had to comment here something:

Code: Select all

EXAMPLE: You run Wordpress. You have a widget. I want you to place that widget in an existing position on certain pages of your website and only show it for logged in users. Here's the clincher: You're not allowed to hack your template to pull this off!

I've just hit something similar today. I have a widget and i want to display in different pages..
Coming from Joomla! i miss that "display on:".

I'm struggling a bit to realize how I will do that in Wordpress.

I am sure I will find out a way or an alternative, but nothing like Joomla! offers by standard.

And well mentioned the K2. Joomla with CCK, now we are talking.

Cheers!

[Webdongle]

I decided to try Joomla first because the Templates appear easy to edit. Placing the includes where text or paths would go in a normal HTML page is about the only main difference.

Having tried it i have found it sufficient for my needs. Ok it is not perfect but what is. It works for me so why change ?

[deleted user]

Here's the devil's advocate:

Joomla 1.6 won't kick ass, it will keep Joomla treading water instead of going under. Custom user fields and permissioning....what real competing system didn't have that years ago? Drupal is working hard on fixing its major faults, which it has identified clearly and intelligently with extensive usability studies, which I guess is what it takes to get people so hitched to their software to see what is obvious to 99% of users. Drupal 7.0 is very likely to kick ass. Joomla 1.6 will keep Joomla in the game. Maybe.

Scalability was mentioned--yes it is a strength for Joomla. I have heard it said many times that Joomla scales really well, although Drupal renders pages far, far faster. And now that scalability is being stressed with ZacWare's Jentla, which is being called "a multi-site CMS" in its own right for marketing purposes. Their more precise terminology describes Jentla as an "application layer"--a proprietary application layer--that manages multiple Joomla installs:
http://cmscritic.com/introducing-jentla ... rise-layer

That could be a game-changer. Unfortunately Jentla timed their release with their 2nd (or 3rd?) change of (canned) templates, each time getting progressively worse. Now most of their links are producing 500 errors. There is/was some interesting info in there about how Jentla works and how it will be relating to Joomla 1.6. Keep an eye on the site if you didn't see it when it was working. I look forward to finding out if there is an affordable option for people who want to manage only 2-5 or 10 sites.

As for Wordpress not being a CMS, neither is Joomla, which may have been stevetsi's point. Joomla is more of a CMS than Wordpress--yes that sidebar widget nonsense is really limiting and keeps WP a blog, not a CMS. But what WP does do with content is real CMS functionality--categories, tags, lots of nice semantic markup stuff. Joomla does not do that. Joomla a platform for whatever you want it to be a platform for, and if you can develop custom extensions for it, it can do almost anything...but everyone says that. Given enough time, a room full of monkeys banging on keyboards can do it all with Joomla, Drupal, Wordpress, whatever... The reality is, Joomla can't manage content as well as WP.

A robust CMS is not the end-all, be-all, nor is one needed for most sites. Yet it is a regrettable truth that Joomla is incapable of being a strong CMS anytime in the near future, and I think it is unlikely ever to happen, with or without replacements for the evil com_content. This is bad for everyone whether they need a strong CMS or not.

K2 and Zoo are nice, but they have no frontend writing/editing capability yet. That may be possible with Joomla 1.6. But even if that is how it shakes out, K2 and ZOO will never match CCK for Drupal because Joomla extensions don't relate to the core and each other the way they do in Drupal--through a common way of defining and handling content: nodes. A node system in Joomla is a "maybe" associated with the ethereal realm of Joomla 2.0.

In Drupal the node system allows instant mapping of newly created content to a URL--it is just there, bang! You create a page that has no links to it and can only be reached by a direct link, but if it is published, it is there.

This makes front-end content creation really easy. Unlike Joomla, you can create 10 pages on the front end and start linking to them right away. You do need to go into the backend to modify nav menus, but that too is easier--it's all just direct, internal links. The node is a page, you can assign "blocks" to any node, and there is no "component output" to deal with.

In contrast, Joomla's component output is essentially a segregated content type outside the core content management system (com_content) that you can't locate without reference to a menu item. (In fact, the menu manager ends up doing half of your real content management functions--in a really poor anduneven way with all the menu item parameters that some components have and others don't.) Not so in Drupal. If you have a Drupal module that's like a component in Joomla--it produces page/article-type content--then it is creating nodes, like everything else.

Not only does the Joomla core not understand "content" outside of com_content "articles," few extensions have ever been developed to do much with com_content. It's the same within Joomla's own core extensions. Suppose you want a user to be a client who is associated with banners in the banner ad manager, and this same user also needs to be a contact in the contact manager. Suppose this user needs to be a contact in several contact categories or be associated with several different organizational positions. That kind of integration between components does not exist without custom hacking of Joomla (The main problem with core hacking is you are basically forking Joomla, and you face a tedious, time-consuming future ahead for maintenance/upgrades. This requires people who know what they are doing and who you can rely to keep you up to speed every time the core is upgraded. Not easy, and not cheap.)

Apparently nodes make SEF URLs simpler too, which Drupal has had better and for longer than Joomla. Since nearly every page in Drupal has the same kind of address (a node number) that is not tied to menu items as in Joomla, its makes sense that URL aliasing would be easy. You also don't run into the content/view, alias duplication/differentiation, and module assignment problems Joomla has.

I suspect the biggest impact the node system has had for Drupal is that, as part of the core, it means the core is really built for content management. Joomla is a framework for a lot of stuff, and com_content--so far a mandatory core extension--is the actual CMS. Content--conceptually and architecturally--is only what you put in com_content even though in reality we want to consider every bit of data entered and "managed" somewhere in Joomla to be "content." Well it isn't. In Drupal it is. Everything is a node, and a node is content. In Joomla, you are nothing without a menu item, and a lot of stuff can't have menu items. Sure, lotsa workarounds for this...PITA!

The node system has to be a key reason why Drupal developed a critical module like CCK rather early on, and it's probably why they got high adoption in public sector areas like journalism/media/campaign/advocacy--people who need real, robust CMS functionality. Professional wordsmiths. Drupal has a good module for using Reuters' Open Calais (so does WordPress) which puts them on the map for the semantic web/web 3.0. Joomla...? Joomla is trying to get into the blogging world, superficially conceived. Text content as structured data doesn't seem to be on the map, maybe not even in relation to "tagging" extensions that have popped up.

If you wanted to build a fairly large news site with rapidly updating content that will have a different long-tail value over time, doing it in Drupal--or even WP--would be necessary. But until they really conquer their UI issues--which I think they are close to doing--doing it in Drupal is a time-consuming, expensive commitment requiring key admin users to digest 3-4 books. Suppose it's just that learning curve rather than any technical superiority on Joomla's part that keeps Joomla out of the #3 (or #4 spot)...for now. Could be.

Even Joomla 1.5's template override system--which is now essential--is still a bulky workaround for a core that is not fully separating design from content, not following proper page design with header tag hierarchies, and is probably not meeting true (governmentally mandated) accessibility standards in an ideal way. This is on the slate to be fixed, but it's very late in coming. This is treading water, not leading the pack.

The better template makers have only just begun to address some of these design/content problems and take full advantage of template overrides, but that's another 3PD extension solution or workaround to compensate for core deficiencies.

We'll see where it goes. 2009 to early 2010 might be a make or break period.

[deleted user]

Jentla site seems to be working again. I am surprised there is zero mention of it in the forums here. This is the smartest thing/biggest value in Jentla aside from the whole multi-site functionality: Content as Objects--it stands to compensate greatly for the limited conception of content in Joomla that I mentioned in the previous post:

From CMSwire:

To prove its mettle on the scalability front, Burstow mentioned that Jentla recently deployed 10,000 sites on a single installation. Burstow also spoke of Jentla's 'content as object' model, which can automate granular local targeting of content items. A Jentla client is successfully using this to create locally targeted content networks in support of their advertiser network. "People pay more per click the better you can target advertising." Burstow said.

Open source is a critical part of a CMS success, he said, noting that there are too many CMS out there right now. "Convergence is inevitable," Burstow said, "and cost will play a big part in that."

Additionally, Burstow mentioned workflows and user management as areas in which Jentla upgrades Joomla to a true enterprise level multi-site CMS.

Depending on the pricing and marketing, Jentla in itself ought to be able to carry Joomla and perhaps even boost it up in the open source CMS arena.

[darb]

dpk - just agree very much about your two posts and the info there! much appreciated....

[AmyStephen]

dpk -

In Drupal 7, nodes go away and fields take over. Given your post on the importance of Joomla! adopting the node structure due to how well you see it working for Drupal, how do think the Joomla! project should position for this architectural change in Drupal? Would it make sense for Joomla! to skip nodes and advance straight to fields? Will a nodeless Drupal create problems for that project, or do you see it advancing Drupal, further?

Thanks for your analysis on this architectural issue.
Amy

[AmyStephen]

stevetsi -

Completely agree with your post. I think anyone who actually opens an IDE and starts to develop in Joomla! can identify with your comments. The Joomla! framework is a pretty cool development environment.

Is it the best? I seriously doubt it. But, it meets my needs very well and allows me to create cool stuff quickly. It's fun to use and there is an excellent future with a strong community behind it.

Must have books for Joomla! developers:

- Learning Joomla! 1.5 Extension Development: Creating Modules, Components, and Plugins with PHP - Joseph L. LeBlanc - perfect Quickstart - it will help you learn how to build Joomla! extensions - all flavors - and package them for use by others - http://www.packtpub.com/Joomla-Extensions/book

- Mastering Joomla! 1.5 Extension and Framework Development, James Kennard - excellent reference - have it nearby when I code - http://www.packtpub.com/joomla-one-poin ... ework/book

You don't know Joomla! until you taste the creamy inside. Learn to develop in it. Evaluating the delivered CMS, only, gives only one perspective.

Good post Steve - it's obvious you have used it - thanks for sharing that,
Amy

[deleted user]

In Drupal 7, nodes go away and fields take over. Given your post on the importance of Joomla! adopting the node structure due to how well you see it working for Drupal, how do think the Joomla! project should position for this architectural change in Drupal? Would it make sense for Joomla! to skip nodes and advance straight to fields? Will a nodeless Drupal create problems for that project, or do you see it advancing Drupal, further?

I didn't say anything about what Joomla should do (nor would I) on that level of specificity about methods. (And doing something just because X does it and it works well is not really an ideal approach for anything.)

I noted that nodes for Drupal have given it advantages over Joomla. The main issue is how versatile your "content" is. I don't care how the cat is skinned, just that it is skinned pretty well. I do think Joomla should get a more versatile architecture relative to "content." How that should be done from a programming standpoint is not something I can speak on.

[AmyStephen]

Exactly. There are lots of ways to skin a cat.

Most of the difference between Drupal and Joomla! has to do with "reputation" and "perception."

Many who have cursory knowledge of the two environments tend to believe Joomla! is easier for less technical people and Drupal is intended for developers. The truth is Drupal can be used by less technical people very successfully and Joomla! can be extended into powerful solutions by skilled developers.

Node, field, component, module, plugin, event - whatever you call it - it all comes down to 0's and 1's. Learn to use your tool and you will create innovative solutions.

I think the http://cmsshowdown.com helped dispel many beliefs that WordPress, or Drupal, or Joomla! are intended for specific use and can't go beyond. If you know how to use one of those environments, you will not be limited in what you can build. Learn to code and have fun with free software.

My 2 cents,
Amy

[Webdongle]

.....
....
Many who have cursory knowledge of the two environments tend to believe Joomla! is easier for less technical people and Drupal is intended for developers. The truth is Drupal can be used by less technical people very successfully and Joomla! can be extended into powerful solutions by skilled developers. ....

Is that a paradox ?

If you know how to use one of those environments, you will not be limited in what you can build. Learn to code and have fun with free software.

Definately a big yes, and have you noticed how many of the people who knock Joomla do not know enough to use it to its full potential. (Not aimed at anyone just a general observation).

[HarryB]

dpk -

In Drupal 7, nodes go away and fields take over.

Really? I thought the big change was incorporating current 3rd party CCK module functionality in the core rather than abandoning the node-based architecture.