New: Joomla (1.5) vs. Drupal (6.x) for Newbies

[deleted user]

I guess we should inquire elsewhere, maybe the source.

When I have a spare moment it should make for some light reading.

[AmyStephen]

That's what it sounds like, HarryB. A recent Lullabot Podcast discusses it - and also, as you say, discussion about including more of CCK - some was already included in Drupal 6 - more will be added in Drupal 7. There will still be contributed module CCK.

It was a very interesting podcast - it makes Drupal sound even more complex and flexible. It's good to see them also developing easy to use packages.

http://www.lullabot.com/audiocast/podca ... d-drupal-7
http://drupal.org/community-initiatives ... ore/fields

[deleted user]

While we're on the subject, I've heard there is some kind of Jentla-like system/service in the works for Drupal. Has anyone seen anything in writing about this?

[fotisevangelou]

Just want to clarify that K2 DOES have frontend editing features.

Furthermore, when we release the stable version is around 3,5 weeks, we'll be adding ACL for K2 to improve and extend even more the options for content submission and handling in the frontend.

What does that mean? K2 admins will be able to create "user groups" which have specific "actions" assigned to them and for specific categories. In real scenarios, imagine a big company website with an area for news/blogging handled by a certain group of people, while another area, e.g. the Knowledge Base is handled by another group. These 2 groups cannot conflict and no user from one group will ever be able to post an item to the other group's content area.

BTW, for those new to K2, Barrie North from JoomlaShack has just published a video review for K2: http://www.joomlashack.com/joomla-compo ... deo-review

[deleted user]

Fotis, thanks for the update. Sounds hot! This is a new release with these features? The beta didn't have them unless I am going crazy...

I wish you'd put up at least a feedburner option to subscribe to your news and updates. Much easier to keep track then! Some recent studies have come out showing how effective email marketing is and how it beats "social media" in a lot of ways. (Email IS social media.) Just a suggestion...

[darb]

dpk -

In Drupal 7, nodes go away and fields take over.

Really? I thought the big change was incorporating current 3rd party CCK module functionality in the core rather than abandoning the node-based architecture.

Agree with HarryB.

Where have you find this info dpk about abandoning the node-based architecture? Would be very surprised if they do but would be interesting to know why if so?

[deleted user]

Amy is the one who provided this information. I can't confirm or deny it. Haven't looked into it.

[HarryB]

That's what it sounds like, HarryB. A recent Lullabot Podcast discusses it - and also, as you say, discussion about including more of CCK - some was already included in Drupal 6 - more will be added in Drupal 7. There will still be contributed module CCK.

Yes I'm well aware that Drupal 6 has a bit of CCK functionality in core (i.e., ability to define custom content types).

I believe the new "Fields API" in Drupal 7 is more or less the equivalent of the present CCK module's ability to create and manage fields: http://drupal.org/project/cck

My understanding is that nodes are alive and well in Drupal 7. I've been wrong before but don't think so on this!

http://api.drupal.org/api/7

But enough about Drupal, this is a Joomla! forum.

[Webdongle]

Just been looking at the Drupal again, wonder if i can run it on my PC with xammp ?

[deleted user]

I don't see why not.

[AmyStephen]

Guys - I provided a link to the video where it is discussed.

[Webdongle]

I think this says it all, Joomla less Time spent, less errors, less custom code ........

How the Teams Compare
Here is a comparison of how the sites came together under deadline:

****** Drupal Joomla! WordPress
Total Hours 79.25 57.25 90.5
Hours spent on front end 21.75 15 36.5
HTML Validation No (8 errors) Yes No (8 errors)
CSS Validation No (7 errors) No (1 error) No (21 errors)
Page weight 180K 140K 154K
Lines of custom PHP/JS code 220 30 1,808

http://www.cmswire.com/cms/web-cms/sxsw ... 004124.php

[AmyStephen]

I think the Joomla! team did great showing how you can use Joomla! as a community collaboration tool. We did a good job on validation, and I am proud of that. But, the other metrics are really skewed, given the manner in which we were to count things.

The Showdown demonstrates that people who know how to use their environment of choice: WordPress, Drupal, or Joomla!, can build a sophisticated, collaborative community environment that compares in function and form between projects. When it gets down to it, these are all excellent solutions.

[Webdongle]

How can the others be considered 'Excellent solutions' when they produce more errors, take longer and need more custom code ?

[AmyStephen]

I wrote a great deal of code that was used in this entry. Way more than WordPress or Drupal wrote, I am certain. But, that code is part of the Tamka project and did not count in the numbers, given how we were asked to count lines of code. We only included Template lines of code because that was the only "custom" code for our entry.

Our hours were counted the same way. The time spent building extensions we needed was not counted.

I am most proud of our validation numbers - and page weight. Those are pretty good metrics.

The person who did usability testing picked Drupal, first, closely followed by Joomla!, and indicated WordPress was last. If you tested 100 people, I seriously doubt you'd find the vast majority saying WordPress is the least user friendly. But, this individual found it to be the case in a blind user test.

The professional designer picked Drupal, followed by WordPress, followed by Joomla!. Mainly, Joomla! was last because we used the wrong typography, as detailed in the development specs.

You cannot conclude which of these environments are best from that one "contest." What you can say, though, is Joomla! can hold it's own in a community collaboration environment. I think finding that to be the case surprised a few people -- and we can feel pretty darn good about that.

And, yes, WordPress, Drupal, and Joomla!, are each outstanding choices. Pick one. Learn how to use it professionally. Build cool stuff.

[HarryB]

How can the others be considered 'Excellent solutions' when they produce more errors, take longer and need more custom code ?

You can use numbers to tell any story you want.

To me, an honest comparison would be what each gives you "out of the box." For example, as Amy notes, the Joomla! solution made use of a sophisticated 3rd-party extension that added features and capabilities above and beyond the Joomla! core. And I'm sure Drupal and Wordpress made liberal use of 3rd-party extensions too.

My opinion...there is no one "better" package. None are all things to all people, nor are they meant to be. Comparisons of the three are an interesting exercise, but to me the only way to decide which is best for you in any particular case is get your hands dirty on all three.

[englishtutor1]

Personally I hadn't heard much about Joomla. A friend recently installed it and put it up on a site of his and I asked was it WP or Joomla? Turns out he used Joomla and I was rather impressed at how slick and clean the installation/setup looked. That tickled my fancy and here I find myself ready to learn Good post for beginners like me, thanks.

[HarryB]

Guys - I provided a link to the video where it is discussed.

Out of curiousity, I downloaded latest Drupal 7 CVS on 8 May and installed on local WAMP environment. Still using node object to manage content (articles, pages, blogs, etc.). Friendly URLs still use form http://yourdomain.yds/node/n.

Think feature freeze for Drupal 7 is scheduled for September so if Drupal 7 "nodes" are going away, looks to me like somebody has a ton of work to do!

P.S. I did indeed listen to the discussion and did not come away with impression "nodes" were going away. Only that their importance may be diminished in some cases such as user profiles and 3rd-party add-ons thereto.

*** end of discussion about this on my part ***

[darb]

Nodes is one of Drupal most important core feature and will never go away. I will be very very surprised if so.

[fotisevangelou]

Fotis, thanks for the update. Sounds hot! This is a new release with these features? The beta didn't have them unless I am going crazy...

I wish you'd put up at least a feedburner option to subscribe to your news and updates. Much easier to keep track then! Some recent studies have come out showing how effective email marketing is and how it beats "social media" in a lot of ways. (Email IS social media.) Just a suggestion...

You are going crazy! (i'm joking...)

First of all, enable in K2 params frontend editing. Then go to Authors, select some user and edit their profile to make them a frontend editor. When this user logs in the frontend, they will see add/edit item buttons next to the titles. In K2 stable we've streamlined this better, much like Drupal, as we're doing user groups with specific "actions". Easy peasy ACL in other words.

Regarding updates, we have an RSS url for http://www.joomlaworks.gr and you can always follow us on Twitter or just browse our forum (or forum RSS).

[deleted user]

Thanks Fotis. I just saw the updated entry in JED.

[darb]

Thanks fotis for doing this nice addon for Joomla community. Much appreciated!


DPK Fotis.

DPK you mention Jentla also and I wonder how it will be possible to use both Jentla and K2 ?

http://www.jentla.com/

[raulreynoso]

We have completed a survey of professional developers about the strengths and weaknesses of Joomla and Drupal. Those of you interested in the relative strengths and weeknesses of the two content management systems may wish to review the results. We are still analyzing the data, but you can see the raw results for each question in the survey.

The survey results are available in a couple different formats. For more information view our blog post anouncing the results of the Drupal vs. Joomla Survey.

The topics covered in our survey include the availability of developers for each CMS, ease of use, extensibility, the quality of documentation, and more. We hope these results will help people determine which CMS is best for their project

[deleted user]

raulreynoso's survey data looks pretty good in that it's not just another "who's best" contest. It should be able to indicate some trends in perceptions of Joomla and Drupal that can be matched with types of users: people who use one or both and who are at different levels of expertise with them.

[Webdongle]

raulreynoso's survey data looks pretty good in that it's not just another "who's best" contest. It should be able to indicate some trends in perceptions of Joomla and Drupal that can be matched with types of users: people who use one or both and who are at different levels of expertise with them.

Yes, looks like a 'level playing field' for a test. A few things that i noticed,

• Drupal users appear to think Drupal is perfect and has no bugs
  Drupal users are more critcle of Joomla than Joomla users are of Drupla
  Drupal users seem to have more problems understanding Joomla than Joomla users have understanding Drupal

That suggests to me that Joomla users are more skilled than Drupal users and have a better abillity to understand/work out problems that they come across. And that therefore Joomla is more difficult to understand but those who understand both choose Joomla over Drupal.

Also, because Drupal users appear to think Drupal is perfect and has no bugs, that the opinions of the Joomla users in the survey are probably the most reliable.

[deleted user]

Yes, looks like a 'level playing field' for a test. A few things that i noticed,

• Drupal users appear to think Drupal is perfect and has no bugs
  Drupal users are more critcle of Joomla than Joomla users are of Drupla
  Drupal users seem to have more problems understanding Joomla than Joomla users have understanding Drupal

That suggests to me that Joomla users are more skilled than Drupal users and have a better abillity to understand/work out problems that they come across. And that therefore Joomla is more difficult to understand but those who understand both choose Joomla over Drupal.

Also, because Drupal users appear to think Drupal is perfect and has no bugs, that the opinions of the Joomla users in the survey are probably the most reliable.

I think it may indicate what I have observed anecdotally: Drupal has a kind of "total commitment" culture with a lot of committed users who use nothing else, and there is a good deal of negativity (if not resentment and hostility toward Joomla) among this group. They tend to see Joomla as a rival in a rather personal way. In the J! community you can find this too, but there seems to be a broader view taken overall, although this is something I didn't see so much a year or two ago.

I think you are right about the "no bugs" question and answers. I also read that as a "trap" question that exposes people who believe/want to believe the impossible. If you want a real answer, you could look at bug trackers for both the Joomla and Drupal core as well as the number of security and maintenance releases. Guess what, they both have them, and it's a good thing!

[raulreynoso]

dpk,

That is very an itersting comment about the bug trackers. That could be a great source of information not only about the number of bugs, but also about how severe they are, and how quickly they are resolved.

It would also be interesting to check the reality vs the perception of survey respondents. Maybe that will be a subject for a future blog entry.

[newart]

Yes, looks like a 'level playing field' for a test. A few things that i noticed,

• Drupal users appear to think Drupal is perfect and has no bugs
  Drupal users are more critcle of Joomla than Joomla users are of Drupla
  Drupal users seem to have more problems understanding Joomla than Joomla users have understanding Drupal

That suggests to me that Joomla users are more skilled than Drupal users and have a better abillity to understand/work out problems that they come across. And that therefore Joomla is more difficult to understand but those who understand both choose Joomla over Drupal.

Also, because Drupal users appear to think Drupal is perfect and has no bugs, that the opinions of the Joomla users in the survey are probably the most reliable.

I think it may indicate what I have observed anecdotally: Drupal has a kind of "total commitment" culture with a lot of committed users who use nothing else, and there is a good deal of negativity (if not resentment and hostility toward Joomla) among this group. They tend to see Joomla as a rival in a rather personal way. In the J! community you can find this too, but there seems to be a broader view taken overall, although this is something I didn't see so much a year or two ago.

I think you are right about the "no bugs" question and answers. I also read that as a "trap" question that exposes people who believe/want to believe the impossible. If you want a real answer, you could look at bug trackers for both the Joomla and Drupal core as well as the number of security and maintenance releases. Guess what, they both have them, and it's a good thing!

Drupal isn't as easy to manage as Joomla, of course... I'm teaching Joomla to my young son and in a few minutes he's ready... he cannot do anything similar in Drupal...

well so it's probable that who's using drupal is a bit more "professional" than a "normal" joomler. NB. I use Joomla (anymore Drupal) as IMHO is better and I have no tech problem gap

[deleted user]

I see Drupal Acquia text ads are appearing here on this forum page.

[cfab]

Joomla for newbies and basic sites
If the subject is "for newbies", then well Joomla's the best. There are big colorfull buttons, there are a lot of free extensions, a lot of templates. Great.

Drupal for the rest
If you're a company, or a user with very specific needs (try to make a recipes site with Joomla for instance), then Drupal will blow Joomla away...

I've developed a lot of joomla sites (even my company site) and I still do. These are fine since they are for clients who wanted only a site to expose their business and add a contact form. What an exciting site!

But for specific sites or portals, I now choose Drupal which allows a lot of tuning and saves me a lot of time, especially using CCK to customize nodes (which is the key feature of Drupal and won't be abandoned).
The coding system, which I found not so bad by the past in Joomla (for the documentation, not for the MVC which is very confusing by giving a lot of importance to the view and not enough to the model, not speaking of the split between frontend and backend which is a nonsense to me) now appears me non professional. For a developer, Drupal is better I think.

If you come to performances, again, Drupal wins (try Y!Slow on joomla.org and drupal.org and make your own benchmark).

W3C compliance are just a template problem, and many many Joomla Extensions don't respect it... I'm quite sure that this will be a standard in Drupal very soon as Dries Buytaert wants it.

Another point where Drupal is very good is that extensions are free... that's a good point.

Regards,
Fabien Crépin