Joomla! Discussion Forums

Can you give us a link from an independant site to back that up?[/quote]

I cannot quote my exact words on that post Brad because it has been removed. I do know, however, that I was talking about my experience with my clients and with people who are approaching me to do work for them. I doubt there is any independent research to show how many people moved from one CMS to another, then moved again. I commented only on the trend I am observing in my own work. In context, that comment would have been clear in its meaning.

Just a note on the ACL abilities of Joomla, Until it is realeased, it is basically vaporware. Yet I see so many people say, "oh ACL is in the roadmap and we'll see it soon". More than 2 years ago, in the Mambo days, I heard the same thing again and again. I waited till August when the roadmap said the ACL version was going to be released. It got delayed - understandable as it isn't something to just throw in half-coded. Still over two years now and still no ACL in either Mambo or Joomla . Oddly enough, the website I was waiting for the ACL got put away and I visited Joomla today to see if I could continue work on it - leading me to this thread

Again, I can't use Joomla as I still need the ACL and multisites(which is available as hacks in Mambo & Joomla). I have had a look at Drupal which I know can do what I want but they have a new version coming out soon which it probably worth waiting for judging from the discussions i've seen.

Joomla is good to use as it is easy to setup and manage websites - especially community types where a forum such as SMF and a gallery such as Coppermine or Gallery2 can really make the community flourish. I do see Joomla being used on websites a lot where SMF with a portal is all thats required or a simple wordpress or even snews can do. Joomla however does allow for future growth I guess with the components & modules, some of which are very excellent. Pity about the ACL though (I do not believe using core hacks to implement ACL on Joomla is the way to go as future upgrades will mess with the hacks greatly)

Yes Claude,
That is one way of looking at it...
By the same token you could also say anything in the roadmap is vaporware..Hell Windows Vista is vaporware under those criteria.

there are plugins you can use to get some better ACL...JACL which was mentioned as a possible adoption into the core is one very good option.

Point is it should not be the goal to just nonchalantly make any ACL just to have it. Different people have different needs in regards to ACL.
Some want Forum bridging, Others need LDAP, others still need better leveling and finer control for front end contributor status.
The problem is in how do you support all these needs and not lock yourself into a system that will not support some new requirement that has yet to be determined or invented?

Joomla has lots of things it wanted to achieve but could not because it was tied to old and outdated framework that could not support it. IT's like a child who outgrew all his clothes and shoes. You need to rework the wardrobe for greater capability! This is the goal of V1.5
To make a stable enviornment that does everything Joomla currently does but does it in a way that these greater challenges are easier to implement.

I've said it a dozen times over but 1.5 is a transitional release that keeps as much of the old functionality but organizes it in such a way that further progress can be made and made easily without having to break 50 extentions each time you change something!
Once the 1.5 is stable and the framework is being used. the development track on all these advanced features that have been nearly impossible to implement under the old framework will not only be possible but much faster and easier to code and implement!

1.5 is getting all the ducks in a row, lining up the ammo and calibrating the sights.
Once it is completed the devs will be free to shoot down the ducks we want killed in a quick and timely manner!

Couldn't have put it any better. This is exactly what we are doing. And euh ... I love shooting ducks, especially the bathtub ones

They don't squeak as much as the live ones when shot!

Ok PETA my email is....LOL

I think a good portion of Joomla's users are people who are less "technical" then they would be if they were using Drupal or Typo3. And for that I'm thankful to Joomla for creating a product that I can use easily.

I also have a Drupal site, but for me, it's not as easily extensible as Joomla. With Joomla I can usually look around SourceForge or one of many other sites for Joomla developers and find a solution to my needs. So, for me Joomla is better.

Maybe this is Joomla's niche.

Here's a screenshot Joomla/Drupal by Google trends

Joomla = blue
Drupal = red

The main Joomla! fail and one of Drupal´s virtues is "anticipation":

We all are talking about and demanding features that are available on Drupal ages ago (internet time, lol) so we must admit that Drupal has had more vision (and I guess much more fortune) on planning what people would demand (not only what people are demanding now).

Just my opinion...

I don't know but here is a quote from drupal site



I suppose when they have improved the admin to a bit more slick looking and user friendly to use it could defenitly take a chunk from the joomla (future) users

It is done. Civicspace has an administrative template months ago, may be more than a year ago. You can asign templates to urls and you can have a different template for the admin section.

Drupal 5 has a web installer (an ugly one, that´s the truth, but as efective as a pretty one) and a new look for the admin section, a simple content construction kit (you have the full version available as a "module") and some new features.

In the 4.7.x versions you need to use two "modules" (Drupal modules, you know) to get a better admin interface.

The dark side is that some  of the most important "modules" are not playing well with other and that it is very hard to deploy a website on your machine and export it to your live sever.

It is often misleading to base the assumption on Google Trends on the popularity of a system to be better or worst than each other. I mean Microsoft Windows is hugely popular but does that make it better than Macs or Linux (same goes with web browsers)?

Anyway, I would very much like it to hear from users' experiences that have used both Joomla and Drupal.

thanks,

well, about misleading trends you're right but it's interesting...



I use usually Joomla! and I used a great variety of CMSs before. About J! vs Dpl I can say that J! has a great potential and that Dpl is slightly difficult to build. They aren't at the same level, if you compare the J! 1.0.11 and Dpl 4.7.3 you can see the virtual winner should be Dpl (even if the next v. 5.0 - more 2 months - should be better than 4.7.3 about particular problems).

But why I use (almost forever) J!... because it's simpler, beautiful, with a huge variety of plug-ins.

I wonder why reduce this thread about Dpl if you consider it as per quality, complete installed components, etc. there are other CMSs around that I used.

... But J! is my own preferred CMS and I think the real wonderful J! story will start from 1.5 

I think I have now a better answer about where Joomla! fails and the main drawback:


http://drupal.org/mission


http://drupal.org/principles

Drupal has standards as a part of its mission and, as a principle, Drupal puts code before funcionality. This has been proved to work fine. Now we have Joomla! 1.5 Beta. It´s a nice chance to test and know where Joomla! will be in a couple of years.

Theres some really intresting nuggets in here but the title is misleading...Drupal Vs Joomla

Its like comparing a hammer and a screwdriver. As Brad said - its not a competition.

It would say the key difference currently is the commercial market in the two. Drupal developers are not easy to find and there really is no selling of templates and plugins.

Drupal more of a community-ethos but they are also in danger of being left behind when it comes to appealing to companies that want a large number of available developers and add-on components.

If you need a CMS that built-in supports multi-site, blog, ACL, profiles, forum, avatar, multi sections/categories and commenting then you can use current Drupal version. But if you are not in hurry you can wait for Joomla 1.5 or 2.0.

For Joomla site that need better SEF (like Drupal) you can buy Advanced SEF (which created by Joomla Developer).
If you need advanced profile like Drupal you can install CB or CB Advanced.
If you need blog like Drupal you can install Joomblog or Wordpress.
If you need taxonomy then you must wait Joomla 2.0.


As you can see above description, Drupal need no much additional add-on because Drupal already integrated with Forum, Commenting System with cascading, ACL, multi-site, avatar, profiles, advanced SEF, Blog, Multi Sections/categories, Taxonomy, etc.

In short, for simple website you can use Joomla because very easy to install and manage by common users without computer background. For advanced website you can use Drupal.

Both CMSs are good and has its own market. Joomla is the Winner. Drupal is the Winner. Everyone is the winner.

Err, but I think you have got some facts wrong..
for true sef url's you don't need SEF Advance..
you can get Open-SEF from here : http://projects.j-prosolution.com/projects/os-projects/project-opensef.html
much better guaranteed . 

by
you mean OpenWP from here http://projects.j-prosolution.com/projects/os-projects/project-openwp.html
right ??

and about this

I think there's a commercial solution available for J! 1.0.x for this here

Personally, I think that the time a person has to learn any CMS is proportional to ones needs for making a living. I know that I looked at Drupal and decided that I had neither the time nor inclination to take on that much education just for the small site I wanted. I found Xoops to be poorly supported and gave that up after getting no help for a week on their forum. I stopped and started Joomla 3 times before taking the time to make the decision to go ahead with Joomla. Difference was in the support. Joomla has the best forum I have seen yet.

I also think that the end user, such as myself, is often overlooked by the developers of many CMS's. Too much tech talk for persons making a living and only wanting a site to spread their opportunities. I am not a techie so Joomla was a bit of a challenge at first. However, the enjoyment of having a good support forum was crucial to me.

So, to me, the differences were: Support, learning curve and time. I am a professional photographer and the avenues of my mind are not really pointed towards web design and programming. Hence, Joomla.

It's a good argument. Joomla is really for everyone but I have to "declare" that there is even this "case":



I think Joomla is very geat with a even more potentital to do, etc. etc. with a lot of 3D party - but about their quality... not always I'm really satisfied. just an example: Joomlaboard vs the "marvellous" forgoen LoudMouth.

You must try Modx (modxcms.com) good cms and php framework 

I like Modx as per its web 2.0 features (read Ajax) but I think Joomla can win over there in a few steps by the next 2.0 version. Joomla is a state-of-the-art CMS in progress!!

I think some may be missing the most significant point here as to why Drupal has some advanced features for awhile that are not seen in Joomla yet...key word is YET!

Drupal is actually a much younger CMS than Joomla (back when it was called Mambo)
Drupal was started with the knowledge of the direction of standards and advanced user base technology...

It didn't have to forsee what was going to happen with many of the emerging technologies because they were already a reality when they started!

Joomla is based on Mambo which is a lot older than most people know. It is based on a program that was written long before the WCAG had even discussed things like standards and most sites used apache or unix' htaccess system to do user leveling and content restriction.

Mambo was written with that in mind...Drupal was not!

As with any open source project's development you rarely ever look back at what you HAVE done and race to add features. Redoing old work usually adds the headache of breaking compatability if not done right...
At some point you will add all you can and max out the capability of the framework and have to redo it...

This is what has happened with J1.5

Now J! will not be tied to antiquated thinking and planning and can move onto adding the features the original framework would not support!
And while Drupal may have beaten J! to the punch on a few subsystems it is still far behind in the WHOLE of the system. While J! was limited in what it could do it didn't sit Idle and worked on the subsystems it could tackle...Those are done and most likely do not need to be redone anytime soon. Now with the new flexible framework J! can implement the few pieces Drupal has that Joomla doesn't and when that is done there will be no feature you can find in Drupal that can't be found in J!

I think it is unimportant which feature a CMS has as what is ultimatly more important is does the CMS have a framework that can easily implement the next emerging technology easily without having to rewrite the framework because it is limiting...

And Joomla 1.5 is a big step towards achieving that!

I'm not knocking Drupal at all here, it is a fine product. But it still has a long way to go in the ease of use area and J1.5 opens up the framework to do everything drupal does but in an environment that is easily upgradable due to it's modular design.

It's not about what each does today it's about what each will be able to do tomorrow!
I'm sure both are capable of incorporating whatever might come up in the next few years,
But Joomla only needs to add 2 or 3 features to it's system to have everything that Drupal has...
Drupal needs to add 4 maybe 5 features once that happens to catch up....

Hi, Asphyx.

How old is Mambo? I found it at sourceforge, may be in 2001, I am not really sure. I was a Mambo user too since then and until the split.

When the w3 consortium started to work in standards? May be in 1994. The first Recommendation is dated in 1996.

I have a nice book, one of my favourites, XML, by Natanya Pitts. I bought it in 1999, may be in 2000. I am not sure too.

But I agree with you: now we have Joomla! 1.5 and it is a great chance. The CT has done a great effort not only to give us a new framework but to keep backward compatibility (and that´s a very valuable thing). And I know there is more to come.

You talk about 2 or 3 features to beat Drupal. Which features? Do those features imply a really hard work? And the Drupal features... are you talking about the 4.7 or the 5.0?

Mambo was released as a product by Miro sometime in 2000 if I'm not mistaken...
Considering it probably was in development for a year before that lets assume it was started in 1999....

WCAG 1.0 was defined and accepted in the same year 1999...

At the time most people had not considered that ALL pages should be WCAG compliant that wasn't an issue until much later on and the advent of WCAG 2.0 which address many of the shortfalls of the 1.0 standard...Some time around 2000 or 2001 where the WCAG was being widely accepted as the way to go...until then it was an accepted standard but not anything that was a required (hell it's only required in a few places right now!)

Drupal was started in 2000 and wasn't released until 2001....

So essentially Mambo was released before Drupal was even thought up...That gave Drupal the leg up on meeting the new standards since they had no code locking them into a box that would limit how they implemented the WCAG....

Now it could be argued that well this framework redesign should have been done before now and if it was a commercial product it probably would have been....

but I think the timing is just right, We have the WCAG 2.0 standard defined, new emerging technologies such as Ajax have come along and since you don't want to have to reqork the entire framework each time something new comes along it makes sense to wait until there are more than just one reason to go through the monumental task of an entire framework rewrite...

And from everything I have heard from the devs about the new framework it should be expandable and easy to upgrade for many years to come!

Not only did they manage to break the chains that have limited them for so long the developers managed to come up with a framework that can easily transition users to the new system without breaking every website running the old framework.

And as time goes on and the new output system is implemented it won't matter what WCAG may come oput with as the output modules can be easily replaced and upgraded....



No they don't require a lot of hard work...at least not anymore...Time consuming and a lot of thought maybe...but most of the hardwork has been addressed in the framework.
Right now the only things that Drupal really has that Joomla does not is a very good ACL system/user leveling and standards compliant output...
Now J1.5 doesn't address those directly...what it addresses is the ability to address those subsystems easily for development.

J!1.5 is the bridge between the old and the new...
It is essentiually the new modularized framework using the old framework's modules to ensure compatability...
Now the work to make a WCAG compliant output module and a better ACL can be started.
these will bring Joomla up to version 2.0 where the main differences between Drupal and Joomla will be in the 3pd module and component support.
Right now there is not a whole load of difference between the two in that regard other than the fact that Drupals add ons can draw from the ACL and output routines that already exist in Drupal!

And the work that needs to be done on those two feature sets are not as hard of a challenge as it will be to make Drupal as user friendly as Joomla currently is...

So when I say it will be easier for Joomla to overtake Drupal that is what I have in mind....
The tasks that Joomla has to do to give you what Drupal currently gives you are easier to imp-lement than what Drupal needs to do to make their system do what Joomla currently does....

They are both fine products and I could not say to anyone don't use drupal unless I know they are technically not up to the challenge...
But 1.5 has opened the door to going beyond Drupal in it's current form in fact maybe it has even learned a few lessons from how Drupal has done what it does and the future of Joomla as a Application framework that is easy to operate makes it the more promising package to invest in right now!

Again, with an add; Drupal was, to me, non-understandable when I first was making a decision as to which way to go. (Might be different now that I have my feet wet up to my waist in CMS)  However, Joomla was something I could sink my teeth into although I knew I would have to sit down and really study the ins and outs before I was going to go anywhere with it. My site, though not quite finished, is up and running and I have never done this before. that is what Joomla offered and drupal did not.

The only other thing I would like to add is that when J 1.5 hits the stage, if it hasn't already, i've been making a living for a while and not thinking about J, I would hope that it is made extremely user (read: tech dumby) friendly. the last thing I want to do is have to go in and edit php as, for me and us, it means a lot of time just trying to learn the phraseology to understand what needs to be done before actually doing anything.

Ease of use is a relative thing really....

J1.5 is as easy to use as the 1.0X versions were...
Where it COULD get complicated is dependant on what you intend to do with it as with anything...

If you want to just install, customize the template and start entering Content then Joomla will remain the easy to use system we all have come to know and love...

But the beauty is it can be as simple or as complex as you want it to be!
That is the goal I think the Devs have worked towards achieving...

It will work as well and better than it ever has straight out of the box.,..

But it will also allow those who are more savy to do some things they couldn't do before...and that could seem complicated to the layman but then again the layman isn't likely to want that unless he knows about what it is he wants to complicate!

So ease of use is retained. Complication of use is possible IF you want it!

the beauty is you decide how complicated you want to make it including the decision to not be complicated at all!
J! will do what it does better right out of the box without need for user intervention or coding...
But if he wants to the framework is also there that will let him do whatever he wants without being limited by the framework itself1

Splitting some posts off of this thread to the Accessibility and Design forum.  http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,110424.0.html

gentlemen (and perhaps ladies),


my client wants to know the best CMS system for a site with the following functionalities (verbatim):

1) Robust
2) User friendly
3) Has pod-casting capability

- PODCASTING
- blogs
- classifieds
- e-commerce (shopping cart)
- discussion forum
- events calendar
- poles
- search engine
- capability to process payment
- wish list

i, too, was confused about the "poles" part. I thought perhaps they meant "polls". But no... they want people from Poland.

No but seriously...

their existing site runs on joomla. their existing site is very flat and has just basically text content and some streaming media. Now, they are going to want to give cosmetic surgery to everything.

so.... any suggestions?

thanks in advance for any advice. this is an awesome thread and has given me a tonne of information.


cheers,
_sean.

oh and i forgot to mention...

i need two 3 levels of users:

1. anonymous visitors
2. members
3. administrators

All of that can be done using Joomla!

There are extensions that can meet every need that was presented.

LOL I beleive the reference to poles would mean does it handle the language....
And I beleive Joomfish will do that for you but I do not know for certain...If it doesn't yet then J1.5 with it's UTF-8 support should under a 1.5 compat fish..

the rest are all relatively easy to do...
Podcasts though may require a good streaming server...I don't think you would want to serve them from the webserver...

It would be better to just have the links to them posted on the webserver that would send users to get the casts from a server dedicated to podcasting and media delivery.