The Joomla! Forum ™

Ok, I'm going to try and not make this some kind of epic rant and rag on Joomla. However, I would like to relay my recent experience with Joomla and make a few suggestions.

I have a need to put up a web site. Time is important, meaning that to get the functionality I need excludes the option of writing custom code. I don't have six months to spend trying to write php or .net pages and classes. So, I turned to Joomla after looking into all the functionality it might offer. And I go and download the latest version, 1.6.3, throw it on the server.

My web site will not be a single community, but rather groups and communities within a larger one. In looking for a solution, I had found the Community Builder component and thought it would provide the functionality I needed, especially with the their Group Jive offering, which I paid for. Up front, this combination seems to be an ideal solution for me. But one of the reasons I went with this is that it would allow each group to have their own forum. And, there is a small problem with this. In order to get this functionality, I have to have Kunena installed. And guess what? Kunena does not have a fully functional version that is Joomla 1.6 compatible! Oh joy. Now a major feature of my site just went poof. (Oh yes, I plan to talk to CB about this.)

But, this isn't the only compatibility issue I've come up against. There is also an issue with K2. I thought about using K2 to manage content a little better until I found out that K2 and Community Builder don't play nice together. Apparently, both products take over or bypass the native Joomla user/group management system and set up their own. Nice.

How about templates? How about the other extensions? Why do I have to look through every extension to see if it is 1.6 ready? If Joomla 1.6 is the current version, why is all this old stuff still available? How long has 1.6 been available to the public, and to developers?

The problem is that Joomla is not in control of Joomla. I have some issues with Joomla itself and how it does things. After seeing it, I would suggest a complete rewrite. But, that is a smaller problem compared to how third parties are allowed to do whatever. This leads to endless finger pointing. The proposition with Joomla is that you don't have to write code to create a web site. And with all the plugins, modules, and components, a potential Joomla user is given the idea that he or she can do what they want by changing a setting or picking out extras. This is not the case in reality except for specific situations.

Joomla will have to make rules and get third parties to abide by them. Coordination, organization, and compliance between all parties will have to be established in order for Joomla to continue. If it doesn't, users will turn to something else. And that something else is what I'll be considering during the next few days. Because right now, to me, Joomla is poofware,



Now, I know that this is all this party stuff

Sounds to me like you never did your preparation correctly. Everything you mentioned as a problem was only a problem because of your "...Time is important, meaning that to get the functionality I need excludes the option of writing custom code..." approach.

Joomla is a tool and like all tools it takes time to learn to use it so that you can achieve the result that you want. To turn to something new in the hope that it will be quick (because you are in a hurry) sounds a little like 'clutching at straws'. CMS is not a 'magic quick fix' that can be used to produce an instant website by anyone. It is a tool to automate the output dynamical.

True you can get a basic website up quickly but that can be done easily with a free tool offered by many Hosts. To create a a good site with a good 'look and feel' you need to put in just as much time and effort to create the site as with a static site. Where Joomla and other CMS's come in to their own is after the site is created. In that the content of the site can be changed more easily than with a static site.

So you see you have built your conclusions on a false premise. You assumed that Joomla and CMS was for easy creation of a website when the purpose for CMS is not the creation of the site but the management of it's content. Don't feel too embarrassed about your mistake as many others make the wrong assumption as well.

In short
CMS = Content Management System not Build a quick website to avoid time and effort system.

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http://weblinksonline.co.uk/joomla-faq.html

I expected this kind of reply, and, I was looking forward to getting it. You see, instead of making any effort on your part to examine the situation and the problem I see, you decided to turn it back onto a user, and make it the users fault. You stated in your reply, "To create a a good site with a good 'look and feel' you need to put in just as much time and effort to create the site as with a static site." I guess that puts you in conflict with what Joomla states on it's "Learn More About Joomla" page. Here is the relevant text.



This would seem to imply that Joomla is easy to use, and that web site can be built quickly, with minimal instruction, and that Joomla is highly extensible. But, I guess it takes time to learn, and that to get a good web site up and running, it will take as long with Joomla as it would with hand written code.

Now, as for my issues that you did not address, they still stand, regardless if I was in a hurry or not, and will remain a point of departure for many potential and current users. Joomla is not the first endeavor to get off to a good start only to fail due to a lack of management.

If you choose to dispatch the issues I raised as a case of idiot user, then that's fine with me. I'm sure I will find a resolution to my situation. The question for you is to decide if Joomla has a situation that could be improved. If you think not, then so be it.

I would not completely dismiss those concerns quite so readily. Having tried many different open source products over the years, I agree that Joomla seems less co-ordinated than many other projects, and the codebase is certainly a lot more fragile. There's even a number of issues inherited from the days of Mambo.

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Online since 1995.

It seems that you are looking for a quick and easy fix, and Joomla! states that it does this. If you know nothing of website design, then Joomla! can help you to create a website very quickly in comparison to learning a lot of languages.

You're asking for something rather harsh though. You're basically stating I'd like a car that can drive it's self, but I get annoyed when I put unleaded in it because some makers are making diesel engines. Shouldn't all car makers coordinate better? Everyone has a different requirement.

Custom coding is not required to build a website with Joomla! However, if you have a specific requirement it may be needed. If you're happy to use what is there it probably won't be.

Joomla! 1.6 is fairly new, there may well be bugs, but for the price you pay it's pretty good. The 3rd party applications that are available are pretty good on the whole too, in terms of price, availability, functionality. Yes it's open source, so there are some rubbish ones too. You can't blame Joomla! Without these designers (even the crap ones) you wouldn't have any applications at all. Many are even free.

Lots of the applications were designed for Joomla! 1.5, and are still available for Joomla! 1.5, which is a fine working model of Joomla!. If you are unhappy then use this version, as you will be able to use CB and Kunena with it. There is no way Joomla! can reasonably enforce that every application is upgraded to the J1.6 model, however, there is an "advanced search" which allows you to find only those extensions that work with J1.6. Most of the good applications are slowly being upgraded, as clearly there is a market for them, and often the creators can make money that way.

If you find a better CMS then please let us know. If you create a new extension to solve your problem then feel free to sell it on the Joomla! website. No doubt someone will criticise it.

I think you're pretty forward to demand that people devote their unpaid time to solving your individual problems, although by posting them in the forum in a question format as opposed to rant this would work quite well.

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Just another lonely website designer trying to make his way.
http://www.uglyfashionmedia.com

No it does not put me in conflict with what the "Learn More About Joomla" page says. In fact it is almost identical. The only difference is that I went on to explain that the Developer needs to put time and effort to create good site. i.e. to produce a site that is above the basic standard.




Are two different things. The first paragraph refers to the Management of the content. The second alludes to the fact that the Website Developer can extend the basic functionality for their customers specific needs.


Your OP speaks of creating a website quickly but also appears to imply that you want a site with extra functions to suit your customers.
As stated before a basic website can be put up quickly but if you want all the 'whistles and bells' then you need to put time into the design 'Look & Feel'


Again I say you base you conclusion on the supposition that a a full 'whistle and bells' site can be built quickly. Therefore your conclusion is based on a false Premise because to customise it and learn how to modify it takes time and effort. it's the "can empower your clients to easily manage their own sites themselves" that is the easy part. Because it is the management of the content that is easy.

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http://weblinksonline.co.uk/joomla-faq.html

I read this thread with some interest as I was in a similar situation as the original poster was, just a few short months ago. The extent of my code skills consists of fumbling a css file to change a colour, so I can sympathize with the OP in this regard and yes, that's what attracted me to Joomla. But, having spent many years using software applications, particularly large media workstation apps, I knew that starting out with a new major platform release that causes a bunch of 3rd party dev's to play catchup, is pure folly.

My needs aren't unlike the OP's. My site runs CB with Kunena and Groupjive integration, along with CBSubs, Projectfork, etc., etc., and I've had a pretty easy time of it. But I know that this is because I'm using a mature platform (1.5), and probably most importantly, a professionally made, mature, well supported template.

While Joomla 1.5 itself has its shortcomings, it doesn't hide them. Usually any problems I have with Joomla itself I can find the answer to here. The knowledge base isn't so rich regarding Joomla 1.6. Same with CB, Kunena, etc. Excellent support and history to help get a newcomer up and running if you stick to 1.5.

I will submit my own rant however, that 3rd party developers of smaller components, plugins and modules can be a little irresponsible in not being entirely forthcoming about their products potential incompatibility with other extensions. This seems to mostly revolve around jquery/mootools/ajax stuff. It's probably inevitable that you're going to burn a bit of cash before you can settle on a suite of tools that works. I'm going through hell right now trying to find chat software that actually works all the time! Any recommendations welcome, btw!

My advice to the OP, for what it's worth, is to trash what you have, load up Joomla 1.5, buy a template you love, then carefully install the big extensions you need. Get that running rock solid and backed up before doing anything else. You'll be a lot happier.

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Joomla 1.5.22, CB 1.3.1

Methinks that it is not 'irresponsible' but rather lack of knowledge. There is a range of quality in the 3rd party extensions which is due to the varying degrees of knowledge and understanding. The extensions that I have written are very basic and so is the tool.

I have not tried any of the commercial extensions as because my site is a 'hobby site', however I would expect them to be of a high standard. And many of the non-commercial 3rd part extensions I've tried from commercial developers have been of a high standard.

It is up to the user to determine which extension(s) is right for the type of site they are building.

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http://weblinksonline.co.uk/joomla-faq.html

I've tried a few extensions and on the whole either been happy or uninstalled with ease.

I can't see how you can confirm compatibility across the board as there are so many extensions built in various different ways.

_________________
Just another lonely website designer trying to make his way.
http://www.uglyfashionmedia.com

That was initially my expectation as well, but my experience has taught me not to make that assumption. Even when an extension does work fairly well and has a responsive support staff, it far too often lacks any good documentation that would allow a user to understand how it works or its impact in context with Joomla and other extensions that may use the same code tools. Inevitably that ends up with frustrated, impatient developers fielding newbie questions in a busy support forum.

There's a disconnect between Joomla being a platform that non-code savvy folks can use and the extension developers that don't wish to cater to them. It's their own fault and their own loss, since that's arguably the bigger market segment for their wares.

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Joomla 1.5.22, CB 1.3.1

That is sometimes the case but not always as there are many commercial developers who produce ample documentation and support. They produce the documentation and support for their free extensions as well.

Others provide free extensions but charge for support. It is a material world and there is a limit to how much people can do for free. There is as much variation in documentation and support as there is in quality. The amount of documentation and support is clearly seen before installing the extension.

True some extensions can conflict with others, much in the same way as spare arts for cars(auto mobiles) can. But having a test environment for Joomla, to test extensions on before installing on a live site, will save a lot of problems. Also by keeping a backup then any mistake on the live site can be 'rolled back' within minutes rather than hours or days.

IMHO many of the objections that you raise only have a serious impact on people who plan their site poorly. By opening up your thinking and learning to use Joomla properly you can avoid much of what you are complaining about. When I started using Joomla I had the same problems as you are having. But by learning to use Joomla correctly (as anyone learns to use a new tool) then the problems you refer too no longer are problems.

Again all your reasoning (IMHO) is based on a false premise. The sooner you get the notion out of your mind that Joomla is a quick way to build 'all whistle and bells' websites, then the sooner you will be able to use it correctly.

CMS = Content Management System not Build a quick website to avoid time and effort system.
Think of Joomla as tool and learn how to get the best out of it and it might surprise you. I am not 'poh pohing' what you say. And not trying to insult your intelligence. Yes, (just like everything in this world) Joomla is not perfect and there are many difficulties. But by altering your approach then you will be able to easily overcome the difficulties.

If you want a website with fixed content that you need to script and program every change, then keep to your present system. But if you wish to build sites that you can add different features to, then learn to use Joomla as a tool. It took me about two years to understand how to use Joomla efficiently. I can get a basic site up in about 5 mins (or less) now but it takes more time to add what I need. And, as you can see from my site, creating a good 'Look and feel' still alludes me

The ease of using the correct extension comes with experience and the new user will have difficulty at first. But as time goes on and more extensions are tried then it gets easier. It took me at least 6 months to find my way around the extensions directory, and even now there are extensions that I have not tried.

Stop thinking of Joomla as an easy way to build an 'all whistles and bells' website as that is a common misconception. Spend time reading the descriptions etc. of the extensions. Spend time trying different extensions. Try at least 60% of the extensions in each category(that you think suits you).

Once you have tried out at least 60% of the extensions then you will have the experience to voice an informed opinion them. Your opinion is as valid as anyone’s, however it is made without the benefit of years of experience.

Agreed learning the extensions is not easy and requires much time and effort because CMS = Content Management System not Build a quick website to avoid time and effort system.

You thinking that CMS is a quick way to build an 'all whistle and bells' website is preventing you from getting the most out of Joomla.

_________________
http://weblinksonline.co.uk/joomla-faq.html

So true, I'm still learning and I've been using it for ages. It's a great tool, which is why I've spoken up. I have found some free extensions that are great, and paid for some that are not. It's like anything good/fun/flexible you can always learn new things.

Give it some time, I was the same when I first started, I found it frustrating, but once I'd understood it all I realised what power and potential was locked into this code. Then my forum messages became less frantic! I'm sure my first messages were very stressful and misguided.

_________________
Just another lonely website designer trying to make his way.
http://www.uglyfashionmedia.com

why using joomla for a social site when there are great alternatives like SocialEngine ?

for anything else i fully agree with you, but you should take in account the actual mess is the consequence of joomla refusing to embed in the core comments, cck, forum, etc etc or at least make an official external package like wordpress does with BuddyPress.

moreover, all the addons you mentioned are open source and free so what did you really expect from something you don't pay ?

if you need a turn key solution hmm try Vivvo CMS, phpfox, and similars, but they don't come cheap.