European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

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chrisjg
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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by chrisjg » Fri May 18, 2012 5:10 pm

mandville wrote:also its not gpl - shame.
According to the licence page it's GPL3 http://jpecrjs.dev.wolf-software.com/gpl-3.0.txt

Only just noticed it, so maybe they have only just added that tab.

No javascript? this is what they say at the top of their documentation
wolf wrote: No Javascript ?

A user of your site without javascript is not a problem, there are a few key points to remember
  • Most cookies are delivered by javascript, so won't be delivered
    Less than 1% of people/browsers do not use javascript
    We provide javascript wrapper code where needed to ensure code isnt delivered
    We provide a NON javascript fallback page for users to consent via
And right at the bottom of the documentation page
wolf wrote: Other things to consider

As this solution gains consent via a javascript powered interface, in order to be compliant with the PECR / EPD Directive and it's associated member state laws; it is important that either an alternative is created for those users who do not use javascript browsers, or that cookies are not served at all to these users.
No contradiction there then.

@mandville
mandville wrote:next attempt to make money from FUD please
lol
I guess fear sells.

I am tempted to get a copy of this and see if it works, but only if they give me a trial copy for free - chances of that?

Chris.

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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by Webdongle » Fri May 18, 2012 5:24 pm

RCheesley wrote:... The component Ben is working on will be on a monthly cost per domain, with a monthly & annual developers license available - mainly due to the extra work involved to keep the component and our db up to date, and the fact that it will do regular audits for you etc.
...
I have nothing against commercial solutions and am aware that many commercial developers give a lot of their time freely in many areas of Joomla. However (for various reasons) my interest in Joomla is non-commercial. I wish you well in your endeavour but will concentrate on the non-commercial solutions.
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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by giles » Fri May 18, 2012 5:52 pm

mandville wrote:
giles wrote:Any thoughts on this?
yes, proof it works with joomla and the cost.
on checking i could see the content before the alerter so it failed, also its not gpl - shame. next attempt to make money from FUD please
A single usage license is priced at £100 for a branded version and £125 for an unbranded version. This is a single one off fee, no monthly fees, no yearly fees, no fees based on number of hits!
Sorry I won't bother next time. :)

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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by BenTasker » Fri May 18, 2012 7:03 pm

OK, I have the version of VCM on Viryasoftware honed down a bit now.

Unless you accept cookies, only the following three (I know!) are set

- A JA_pyro cookie. Set by the core I assume as can't find it in the template
- A session cookie
- A language cookie (Multi-lingual site and all that)

I still want to offer the option to block the session cookie, but I definitely want to block the ja_pyro. Language is probably an inavoidable one really.

Finding which component sets what is proving to be a major issue timewise, I'm not sure how anyone is going to find their way around it tbh (unless each extension developer fesses up!). A quick recursive grep for the word cookie (ignoring // lines) returns 2185 results on ViryaSoftware. Most appear to be checking for cookies, or whether they are enabled, but the scale of things to search is still pretty shocking


I'm also wondering quite what to do when it comes to things that can't or shouldn't be disabled, templates being a good example! Err on the side of caution and risk breaking sites, or lean towards risking some getting through? Personally my inclination is the latter as I'd be far more annoyed at the former. Anyone have any observations on this?

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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by Webdongle » Fri May 18, 2012 7:14 pm

BenTasker wrote:...
I still want to offer the option to block the session cookie, but I definitely want to block the ja_pyro. Language is probably an inavoidable one really.
...
There is a solution in this thread that stops the Joomla session cookie it works.

There is also a solution mentioned in this thread that stops the language cookie. It works by placing the language Plugin in a specific view level. It needs to be tested on multi lingual sites but in theory it should only prevent the site showing in any than the default language (without breaking the site). Once cookies are allowed the language Plugin is used again.
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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by BenTasker » Fri May 18, 2012 8:32 pm

Excellent, thanks for that!

I've been playing around with using JS to remove any cookies that have already been set, whilst it seems a viable option I'm not entirely convinced of the benefits (ignoring any AJAX requests that lead to the cookie being reset).

As an example;

10 You load page and cookie do_no_evil is set with an expiry of +2 years
20 My JS function clears cookie do_no_evil
30 You say no to cookies
40 You browse to another page
50 do_no_evil is set
60 My function clears it
70 GOTO 40

Seems a little pointless, it stops such easy aggregation of data but other than that.... Let's be fair, if a site admin wants to aggregate data then he can do it from logs. What it does prevent, though, is linking separate visits, which I guess is what it's all about.

Question is, do you think it's worth the extra CPU cycles? I'm undecided.

As much as I wanted to get this launched today, I've had an urgent Server Support request come in so I'm going to have to leave this for now.

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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by NVB » Sun May 20, 2012 3:21 pm

I’m exhausted after reading all of this, and still none the wiser what to do.

I love to know how the British Government (I'm British) is actually going to enforce this; with millions of UK Websites to consider. Europe's in a mess, have they really nothing better to do!

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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by abernyte » Sun May 20, 2012 3:39 pm

@NVB
The short answer is that only the most blatant offenders will get walloped. The real issue is that a culture of lawbreaking has been allowed to develop over many years. The privacy issue and cookies have been the subject of legislation since 2003. However that legislation ran contrary to the interests of Big Business who need tracking cookies. They want those cookies. They will have those cookies.
So we were all encouraged to flout the law and sod privacy....who needs it anyway?

Anyone who stood out and said that the law should be complied with, is painted as a left wing, commie, loony, Luddite who doesn't understand how the web works. It runs on cookies. It eats cookies to survive. If we don't have cookies the web will break and it will all be your fault and a little kitten will be drowned.

Well just whose site won't work because they can't set a Google Analytic cookie? ( Substitute your third party scumware cookie of choice at this point)
So Europe is not really in a mess. Not for the first time it is the EU who is standing up to Microsoft and Google et al and saying ...enough already. I just wish there was less bleating and more of that energy directed into compliance and this would not have taken 9 years to fix and still turn out to be a surprise to many who have either had their collective heads in the sands or their noses buried deep into Google's illegal trough. Hell mend them all.
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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by BenTasker » Sun May 20, 2012 6:53 pm

Well just whose site won't work because they can't set a Google Analytic cookie? ( Substitute your third party scumware cookie of choice at this point)

I agree, but the problem is we aren't just talking about Analytics cookies are we? Any cookie will require permission, which may break functionality on some sites. Stopping admins using cookies to track a visitor across a single site is an exercise in futility, we all have the means to track visitors across our site if we really want (though not quite as simply). It's the cookies that are used to track users across the net that are the real issue (and as you say, this == big business).
So Europe is not really in a mess
I suspect you probably mis-read the OP's meaning there! Europe is definitely in a mess, for reasons other than cookies. The thing people miss, however, is that there are many different arms of governance. Those who deal with finances may well be running around like headless chicken, but for those tasked with meddling with/fixing other areas, nothings changed.
I just wish there was less bleating and more of that energy directed into compliance
Funnily enough, I think this about a great many things. But it always comes down to apathy, people would much rather do nothing 99% of the time, and hate it when you put them in a position where they have no choice.

What I really object to, is the focus on individual sites. I'm not the first (and doubt will be the last) to say this, but the functionality we are all having to implement belongs in the browser. Hell, it's already there so a refined UI is all that should really be required. Even basic user-education would have been a better route to take. I often hear the argument that to many, a PC is just a utility. Holds no water, we don't consider it unreasonable that you learn what's safe to do with a microwave, and what you shouldn't do, it should be no different for a PC. Again, it comes down to apathy.

You're dead on the mark about enforcement though. It's only going to be the big players, because they haven't the resources for anything else. From an enforcement point of view, the talk of session cookies is moot because it's highly unlikely the ICO will worry about such trivia. From a ISV's PoV though, it's incredibly important because you need to mitigate the risks of liability (I'm not going to worry about session cookies on my personal site, but will need to for anything we opt to release!).

The whole thing is a mess, partially as a result of people sticking their head in the sand, but also partly because it is an ill-thought out overly broad law. The latter could be mitigated if the ICO were to actually give concrete, legible guidance, but they're not. It's like being told that there will be a ban on drinking under certain circumstances, but not being told what those circumstances are.

Finally, Privacy. Call me cynical if you want, but IMHO this law will make no difference in the long-term. There are a lot of very clever people in big business, if they want to track you across the net they'll find a way to do it without cookies. I'm half expecting Chrome to start sending a unique 'Install ID' to Google instead of a cookie so that they can do just that. Realistically, all this change does is muddy the waters, cause people a lot of work all to achieve an end that may never happen!
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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by zeno » Sun May 20, 2012 7:06 pm

I was talking to a friend last week who is involved in the new gov.uk website. It's still in Beta and isn't compliant - I mentioned the cookie law and she knew nothing of it. After she looked into it, she said it was way above her pay grade!

I regularly visit Government websites, but I've not seen one other than the ICO's that is compliant. I think the ICO will be busy next week...

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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by abernyte » Sun May 20, 2012 7:20 pm

but the problem is we aren't just talking about Analytics cookies are we? Any cookie will require permission, which may break functionality on some sites.
Yeah, but the ones which are going to get you time in the slammer will not break anything if they are not served. Herein lies the issue. This is whole clam-bake is not about cookies or their bastard child, LSO's, for that matter (which are being dangerously overlooked in this debate IMHO) it is about the mindset that it is okay to treat an individuals privacy with utter contempt to make a fast buck.

The EU is taking the first stand and we poor souls are the collateral damage so far. Just wait until the new Data Protection Regs arrive and hear the squeals then. Remember that the ICO can't give clarity to what they do not control. The member countries only implement what they all have previously agreed at EU level. The ICO has no room to manoeuvre in this. He can turn the Nelsonian eye to session and certain 1st party cookies but ultimately he dances to Neelie Kroes tune.
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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by abernyte » Sun May 20, 2012 7:24 pm

zeno wrote:I was talking to a friend last week who is involved in the new gov.uk website. It's still in Beta and isn't compliant - I mentioned the cookie law and she knew nothing of it. After she looked into it, she said it was way above her pay grade!

I regularly visit Government websites, but I've not seen one other than the ICO's that is compliant. I think the ICO will be busy next week...
Given that most of the UK Gov departments are still locked into using XP and IE6 on their desktops, please don't expect a lead from them. The state of Government IT is truly appalling.
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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by BenTasker » Sun May 20, 2012 7:40 pm

Yeah, but the ones which are going to get you time in the slammer will not break anything if they are not served.
The problem is, any cookie has the potential to get you a large fine. That's the major problem. Yes, the ICO are very unlikely to pursue anyone for session cookies. But they could.
Herein lies the issue. This is whole clam-bake is not about cookies or their bastard child, LSO's, for that matter (which are being dangerously overlooked in this debate IMHO) it is about the mindset that it is okay to treat an individuals privacy with utter contempt to make a fast buck.
Agree entirely, and it's something that seems to be getting worse as people become indoctrinated into it. People appear to be perfectly willing to give up privacy in exchange for anything! Businesses are capitalising on that (to me, unethically) and are driven to try and get more info (for 'better' advertising) and the users blindly allow it.

As you say, cookies are only part of the issue. Unfortunately, as with most things in Law, they have become the main focal point.
Remember that the ICO can't give clarity to what they do not control. The member countries only implement what they all have previously agreed at EU level. The ICO has no room to manoeuvre in this.
My apologies if you think I was levelling something at the ICO, it was at the law itself. As you say, the ICO can only clarify based on what's available to them. The end conclusion, then, must be that those who implemented this have not made enough information available to member-states regarding what is and isn't covered. That is a sign of a very bad law, vagueness is supposed to be abhorred not simply ignored so that the buck can be pushed to others.
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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by hairydalek » Tue May 22, 2012 8:34 am

abernyte wrote:The Show Cookie Choice button will only work if the user is not blocking Javascript (silly user!)
The “silly user” may have some form of disability which means he or she is using a browser or technology that does not run JavaScript - a braille reader or a voice reader, for example. Any solution has to cater for such eventualities. Not having JavaScript does not mean that that person is somehow opting out of being given the choice. EVERYONE must have the choice - JavaScript or no.

In the UK, the RNIB (a major chary for those with sight problems) went after web sites that could not be “seen” by those with vision problems. Even if the ICO is not going after websites, it is possible that a litigious private concern could do.

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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by chrisjg » Tue May 22, 2012 2:24 pm

I think the main problem with this law will be one of enforcement. The BIG PLAYERS (50 who will get letters) will comply with the law (and probably help define what is/is not acceptable by doing/not doing).

The BIG PLAYERS may be worth going after if they blatently ignore the law and force a court case, but the ICO has neither the time or resources to investigate the rest of the web for infringements - even if they recieve complaints about a specific site.

It will end up like CCTV is treated now...

<aside>Every business with CCTV should have a nominated data controller/responsible person, and must, upon request (with time/date details), provide anyone with a copy of any footage they appear on. Try walking down the high street and into small independent shops and asking to speak to the data controller(s), try asking for a copy of the footage. You will be faced with blank looks and no responses, or be told to clear off.
Go and contact the ICO, see what they do about it! See http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_the_public/to ... /cctv.aspx for a quick guide.
I suspect the same will be true for the e-highstreet and cookies (and other eprivacy laws).</aside>

As to the PECR, I think this is generally a good idea with poor implementation. Probably due to the lobbying and compromise that happens when law makers (from 27 countries who don't agree with each other) and big business don't agree.

Should these controls be part of the browser? Yes, in my opinion they should.
Will most users care? Not a jot.
Will anything be done if the majority don't bother with this law? Doubtfull.

<aside>
@BenTasker , @Abernyte
We need to start with the re-education of kids regarding privacy and the state / corporations (Make "1984" and "Brave New World" compulsory reading for a start).
Mine have a school that uses fingerprints for their library to check books in and out. I refused to give permission - and spent many hours explaining to my kids why. I also explained to the school why - because they were shocked that someone would not give consent, it had never happened in the previous 3 years (when the first introduced it).
They did not even have a back-up policy in place - they do now, and around 10% of students do not use the fingerprint method.
The other 90% are happy to surrender private and personal details/data/information for the illusion of convenience, and will happily sleep-walk into a future where personal privacy is some quaint old-fashioned thing that no longer exisits.
</aside>

Next week _should_ be interesting, with lots of media coverage about the application and reaction to this new law - but somehow I doubt it will be.

Chris.

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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by zeno » Tue May 22, 2012 3:10 pm

The Metropolitan Police Chief is currently holding a webchat, so I've asked:
Will your website be compliant with the European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance Regulations (the 'Cookie Law') by the Information Commissioner's deadline of this coming Sunday?
Not really expecting an answer, but you never know!

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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by zeno » Tue May 22, 2012 3:46 pm

Nope. My question wasn't selected.

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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by Webdongle » Tue May 22, 2012 3:51 pm

What a surprise :eek:

There are many places where they decide on the 'official' answers then look for the questions to match :D
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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by abernyte » Tue May 22, 2012 6:24 pm

hairydalek wrote:
abernyte wrote:The Show Cookie Choice button will only work if the user is not blocking Javascript (silly user!)
The “silly user” may have some form of disability which means he or she is using a browser or technology that does not run JavaScript - a braille reader or a voice reader, for example. Any solution has to cater for such eventualities. Not having JavaScript does not mean that that person is somehow opting out of being given the choice. EVERYONE must have the choice - JavaScript or no.

In the UK, the RNIB (a major chary for those with sight problems) went after web sites that could not be “seen” by those with vision problems. Even if the ICO is not going after websites, it is possible that a litigious private concern could do.
Sorry HD, you may have misunderstood what I wrote. As JS is one of the main factors in an insecure browser I consider not blocking it foolish and all pages should serve an alternative. Perhaps I did not make that clear, if so mea culpa.
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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by abernyte » Tue May 22, 2012 6:36 pm

@Chrisjg
Mine have a school that uses fingerprints for their library to check books in and out.
Well done. The school were also unaware that "slapped fingerprints" as used in that technology gives a 20% false positive rate causing the system to be relaxed to the point where my horse could take out a book using its left rear hoof.

All Governmental tests worldwide have found that error rate to be repeated in every application and caused the quiet dropping of the technology once the shocking cost had fallen from the balance sheet.

Following 9/11, the newly established US Department of Homeland Security (DHS) designed US-VISIT, a biometrics-based scheme to protect the US border from infiltration by malevolent aliens. NIST conducted a computer-based trial of flat print fingerprinting to predict the success of US-VISIT. They estimated that the technology would successfully verify identity 99.5% of the time. That is equivalent to a false non-match rate of 0.5%.
In December 2004, the US Office of the Inspector General (OIG) reviewed the statistics for the first year of operation of US-VISIT. On average, 118,000 people a day presented themselves to primary inspection at the borders. Primary inspection is largely a biometrics check. If the false non-match rate is 0.5%, you would expect 590 of them to fail and to be referred to secondary inspection by human beings. The actual figure was 22,350 failures. 19%.
/soapbox
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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by NVB » Wed May 23, 2012 5:20 am

It seems we have to thank our policy makers once again for creating chaos.
I really cannot see how this law is going to last in it's current form.

If you take into consideration the diversity of users (including age group),
are they really going to bother reading about cookies, and then knowingly place
a tracking cookie on their computer! They might if it's Amazon, but the average business website?
The implications to Web Analytics (alone) is huge.

For those who are interested, there is a petition running in the UK. Check this [youtube] video out....

http://www.[youtube].com/watch?feature=pl ... mX9FX2KA#!

http://nocookielaw.com/how-to-protest

Thanks to a fellow user in the UK, also came across this Javascript plug-in.
http://silktide.com/cookieconsent/code

Hope above helps.
;)

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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by zeno » Wed May 23, 2012 11:19 am

I came across this website: CookieQ

They say:
The ICO cannot endorse products, however we have been given the following assurance...

"...I would have no problem whatsoever if you were to tell potential clients that use of the CookieQ solution would, if implemented correctly, allow users to give a valid consent for cookies. As a result, clients can be confident that they are able, via this solution, to comply with the Regulation. I can also say that if we were to receive a complaint about a website offering consent in this way we would be unlikely to uphold such a complaint unless something had gone wrong in a specific implementation."

Information Commissioner's Office
They have a paid-for service, but provide a free self-hosted version for smaller sites.

Has anyone tried their solution?

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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by mandville » Wed May 23, 2012 11:37 am

zeno wrote:They say:The ICO cannot endorse products, however we have been given the following assurance...
would love to see the original provable copy
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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by Webdongle » Wed May 23, 2012 12:09 pm

@zeno
Perhaps you should check your facts before spamming unproven quotes about a solution that clearly does not work.
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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by zeno » Wed May 23, 2012 12:23 pm

Webdongle wrote:@zeno
Perhaps you should check your facts before spamming unproven quotes about a solution that clearly does not work.
11.JPG
Webdongle

They are not my facts - I quoted what CookieQ say on their website, making is clear that was what I was doing so that their solution could be discussed by those here more knowledgeable about these things. It was not spam.

But thanks for finding out that their solution does not appear to do what they claim, which was why I posted about them in the first place.

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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by zeno » Wed May 23, 2012 12:28 pm

I have cleared all cookies set by the CookieQ website from my earlier visit and reloaded their home page. I can see no cookies set by just doing this.

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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by Webdongle » Wed May 23, 2012 2:12 pm

zeno wrote:...
They are not my facts - I quoted what CookieQ say on their website, ...
I did not say their qoute was your facts.

I suggested you check your facts before quoting it.
zeno wrote:I have cleared all cookies set by the CookieQ website from my earlier visit and reloaded their home page. I can see no cookies set by just doing this.
They drop the cookie after the user elects not to have cookies. It is an oxymoron, it contradicts what they say they do.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
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BenTasker
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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by BenTasker » Wed May 23, 2012 3:10 pm

They drop the cookie after the user elects not to have cookies. It is an oxymoron, it contradicts what they say they do.
Yeah unfortunately I've had to implement something similar into Virya Cookie Monster as a 'tidy up' as well. Bit of a different situation, but I found that there was some stuff that couldn't easily be blocked, so I added something to go through any cookies and remove them if the user had explicitly said no. I'll come up with a more elegant solution later, but it does at least remove some of the privacy issues, if not to quite the same extent as blocking it outright.

Mine have a school that uses fingerprints for their library to check books in and out.
Good for you, I wish more parents would give these things that level of thought. People seem to find it so easy to forget about the thin end of the wedge.


We need to start with the re-education of kids regarding privacy and the state / corporations (Make "1984" and "Brave New World" compulsory reading for a start).
I cannot agree enough. Did anyone see about the Wallace and Gromit exhibition in Australia? It seems it's OK to teach kids things that benefit corporations, but the (IMHO more important) elements that benefit people (such as privacy) don't seem to be touched upon at all, anywhere. But then part of it is the users themselves: Without passing judgement, how many people do you know who've created a Facebook account for their child, long before that child will even be able to use it? It's not my place to judge anyone for that, but I couldn't do it as who am I to sell my kids privacy on their behalf?

Is it any surprise then, that things like privacy just don't seem that important to people. I'm sure 99% would get really upset if they caught you looking through their bedroom window, and yet quite a proportion are happy to post their daily movements for all to see (not that I'm justifying being a peeping tom!).


Anyway, tangent aside. We launched VCM on Viryasoftware.com yesterday if anyone's interested. The back-end Database is slowly filling with reports of modules/components that set cookies (going to have our work cut-out checking all those!) and the API for the db will be available soon should anyone want to use it.

Cheers

Ben
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https://www.bentasker.co.uk

zeno
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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by zeno » Wed May 23, 2012 4:23 pm

Webdongle wrote:
zeno wrote:...
They are not my facts - I quoted what CookieQ say on their website, ...
I did not say their qoute was your facts.
You said:
Perhaps you should check your facts before spamming unproven quotes...
It certainly seemed to me that you were referring to the veracity of the claim that this was a quote from the ICO, not that I should check to see if their solution worked they way claimed before posting anything about it.
I suggested you check your facts before quoting it.
I am not the expert here. I can certainly look at cookies dropped, but that's about as far as my knowledge goes, which is why I posted this (potential) solution here so that others could - if they wanted to - look at it and say whether they thought it worked.

If I misunderstood what you said, then sorry.
zeno wrote:I have cleared all cookies set by the CookieQ website from my earlier visit and reloaded their home page. I can see no cookies set by just doing this.
They drop the cookie after the user elects not to have cookies. It is an oxymoron, it contradicts what they say they do.
Thanks for discovering that and letting us know.

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abernyte
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Re: European Electronic Communications Framework Compliance

Post by abernyte » Wed May 23, 2012 5:35 pm

BenTasker wrote:
We launched VCM on Viryasoftware.com yesterday if anyone's interested.
Ben, do you see any contradiction in offering what is probably a fine extension to block cookies and then drop 2 on a visitor without consent?

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