Boundaries and Rules

[magnoliaweb]

Please add your suggestions for boundaries and rules. There must always be rules and boundaries in order to maintain a pleasant experience. That being said we would like to hear your ideas on from this perspective keeping in mind what is best for our great community as well as what is fair.

Ideas:
How to limit spamming?
Who should be the admin of groups such as JUGs?
Should extension/developer fans/support groups be allowed for those not allowed in the JED?
Dispute Resolution ideas



Thank you
Sandra

[mandville]

only real people should be members,
only jugs/ares can be groups

theres 2 for a start

edit to add -
profile pictures must be suitable for any age!

[gobezu]

1. I second by @mandville "only real people should be members" above, its after all about people. But I see a difficulty here on knowing what is what. For instance given my name how would you know if I am really Gobezu Sewu or if its my company name?

2. For the extension specific part, only extension owners should be able to initiate extension specific groups.

3. I believe commercial (footnote *) videos/pictures will be hard to prevent just by putting it in the rules, but it should definitely be stated there. As example this kinda http://people.joomla.org/videos/798-new ... +film.html self promotion videos and besides totally unrelated to Joomla! should not be in the General video category. Rather in another "Member announcements" as in ATAAW would be more suitable.

* Even if we call them spam I think the pure spams such as "buy this [* spam *]..." ads are less of an issue and mostly it is somehow related to what we do, but mostly geared towards selling their product or service and not of general interest for the Joomla! community.

[brian]

Groups
Allowed - Joomla Hosting - a group where people can discuss joomla hosting
NOT-Allowed - ACME Hosting Company - a group where clients of ACME can discuss
Allowed - Joomla Templates - a group where people can discuss joomla templates
NOT Allowed - ACME Templates - a group where clients of ACME can discuss

Videos
Allowed - Conference lectures, fun stuff, tutorials
NOT Allowed - Product demos, sample videos for commercial services (inc tutorials)

Photos
Allowed - Photos of people and events
NOT Allowed - screenshots of commercial products when used as adverts

Usernames
Allowed - personal names, nicknames,
NOT Allowed - ACME ltd, domain.com

[Karateka]

Allowed: A site powered by truely open source software. Open Source Matters after all.

NOT allowed: A site that uses proprietary software that's restricting its use per domains and forces its users to have a "powered by" link. That's called leading by example.

[brian]

As already discussed elsewhere at the time of the announcement jomsocial is shortly to be released as gpl and it is the gpl version being used on the site. That decision was already made so nothing is going to change about that.

[nikosdion]

+1 Brian T. Very well thought, but I am wondering about two legitimate use cases which could end up in a gray zone:

1. Video tutorials for extensions. It's OK for free extensions but not OK for paid ones? If so, what happens if the tutorial may cover both a free and a paid version? We obviously want to promote tutorials, as they'll help other people - which is the goal of this site, I think.

2. You said "NOT Allowed - screenshots of commercial products when used as adverts". In my humble opinion this is very subjective and open to interpretation. If I add 50 screenshots of my extension - no sales pitch, just images - is this advertising or not? I'd say that the only reason to upload screenshots is promoting your extension. I'd also say - ban screenshots altogether.

[Karateka]

@brian: Thanks for clarifying! I missed that announcement, but now read up on it. I shall join the site once they release the GPL version.

[brian]

1. i dont believe they have a place on a people site. they belong on the extension owners web site. Joomla shouldnt be in the business of providing free hosting

2. it is subjective and that one (like some others) might need to be looked at on a case by case basis

[manuman]

I agree on there being some boundaries, I don't agree on Brians definition, or at least not exactly.

Using that definition you would simply have recreated the forums albeit with a different engine. I think there is an opportunity here to go beyond what the forums already provide. For example space (as in groups) for open source extensions that adhere to the values of Joomla!, by that I'm talking about GPL.

I created the Nooku Group which is for people, primarily developers to talk about Nooku Framework. Nooku is both non-commercial and GPL and whilst we have products that are commercial and sites that are related to commercial activities I was careful not to include them in any of the Nooku Groups information. The reason was due to the fact that I DID read the rules that were already there first and they already stated "No Commercial Advertising" (http://people.joomla.org/terms-a-conditions.html).

I would suggest that the best place to start would be to simply follow the guidelines that are already there, they seem to be simple and easy to follow and I believe they will provide for the creation of a vibrant community outlet.

[brad]

I think.. for example.. "ACME users group" is ok.. but "ACME" (product/company) is perhaps sending the wrong message (I'm talking about the naming of Groups). I've passed a fair bit of feedback some people have provided in private about this issue on to Sandra and Phillipe, and I think they are well aware of the need to clarify some of this.

[brian]

How about this as a nice and simple guideline

If you can do it, or already do it, on your own web site then it has no place on people.joomla.org

[nikosdion]

I agree with Brian. After all, we all get a chance to link to our business sites, don't we? I'm glad that those links also have the rel="nofollow" attribute in order to level the playing field (as in, you can't use your link on p.j.o for SEO manipulation).

[brad]

How about this as a nice and simple guideline

If you can do it, or already do it, on your own web site then it has no place on people.joomla.org

Hard to write and enforce as a rule, but a good idea for a guiding principle.

[brian]

From principles rules can be written

I always find it easier to define a solid baseline first and then everything else is easier to define afterwards. And when you have "edge cases" you can just refer back to the principles. This prevents people from "gaming" the system because the rules weren't explicit enough.

[brian]

As for enforcing. There will always be some sad individuals who can't obey rules but my experience says that most people are happy to follow the rules and guidelines set out for them.

The first 24 hours have been a bit anarchic, with people who really should have known better in a land grab, but lets work together and make the next 24 months much better.

[brian]

JUGs (Joomla User Groups)

This one is slightly tricky as we have "official" regional based JUGs and clearly where they exist they should be able to be admins of a group of that name.

However because of the JUG rules we don't have things like national user groups so I see nothing wrong with having national groups as well.

Perhaps an easy guideline would be to only allow the recognised contact of a JUG to be an admin of a group called "City Official Joomla User Group"

[mustaq-ahmed]

JUGs (Joomla User Groups)

This one is slightly tricky as we have "official" regional based JUGs and clearly where they exist they should be able to be admins of a group of that name.

However because of the JUG rules we don't have things like national user groups so I see nothing wrong with having national groups as well.

Perhaps an easy guideline would be to only allow the recognised contact of a JUG to be an admin of a group called "City Official Joomla User Group"

My thoughts exactly.

only jugs/ares can be groups

I for one, am starting a new initiative, and I see people.joomla.org as the perfect vehicle to drive this and make this possible. What better Central place to gather people than people.joomla.org . It's the hip and happening place in the joomlasphere currently, so restricting groups to only Officially recognised JUG's would not be in the spirit of people.

[masterchief]

Groups
Allowed - Joomla Hosting - a group where people can discuss joomla hosting
NOT-Allowed - ACME Hosting Company - a group where clients of ACME can discuss
Allowed - Joomla Templates - a group where people can discuss joomla templates
NOT Allowed - ACME Templates - a group where clients of ACME can discuss

I can agree with that. How would you feel about groups that discussed commercial "stuff" as a business, eg a Commercial Developers Association?

Videos
Allowed - Conference lectures, fun stuff, tutorials
NOT Allowed - Product demos, sample videos for commercial services (inc tutorials)

Yeah ok. At the end of the day people should be using Connect for their teasers and what not, though I can think of ways to get around that.

Photos
Allowed - Photos of people and events
NOT Allowed - screenshots of commercial products when used as adverts

I guess "when used as adverts" could be subjective, and possibly abused, but maybe that's a "let's see how it goes" scenario.

Usernames
Allowed - personal names, nicknames,
NOT Allowed - ACME ltd, domain.com

No argument there. I'd really encourage people to use their real names. I'm not going to accept friend requests from dead rock stars with no info in their profile

With that all said, I would not like to see it that "people" aren't allowed to express themselves doing whatever it is they are doing during the day or night, whether that's a commercial activity or not (honestly, I would find some "non-commercial" comments spam!). So I think we need to strike a balance, otherwise this place is just going to be uber dull and boring. I would also hate to see the people site locked down as tight as this forum with anti-self-promotion laws. Self-promotion is not exactly equal to commercial advertising (though it can be, sure - that's what moderators are for).

A part of that solution, therefore, is to let the technology allow people to filter "stuff" (whether it's talking about) to a sufficient level that the noise is reduced to a respectable level. As example, I find the who befriend who cute, but after 24 hours it's just noise, if not "spam" to me. I want to filter that feed to suit me.

I'd also caution hastily throwing rules together so that we lock down this, and lock down that. People will become disinterested very quickly if that happens. The site's only been up 36 hours. Let's not be too quick to jump in and pull the weeds out of the wheat when both are only just green sprouts that are hard to tell apart. That could cause more damage in the long run. Let's talk about it but try to avoid knee-jerk reactions. The site's "beta" afterall.

[brian]

I can agree with that. How would you feel about groups that discussed commercial "stuff" as a business, eg a Commercial Developers Association?

Thats a perfect example of what should be allowed as it is not about one specific company. I'm not against anti-commercial at all.

With that all said, I would not like to see it that "people" aren't allowed to express themselves doing whatever it is they are doing during the day or night, whether that's a commercial activity or not (honestly, I would find some "non-commercial" comments spam!).

People expressing themselves is exactly what the site is about, not companies expressing themselves. It's a subtle but important difference.

A part of that solution, therefore, is to let the technology allow people to filter "stuff" (whether it's talking about) to a sufficient level that the noise is reduced to a respectable level. As example, I find the who befriend who cute, but after 24 hours it's just noise, if not "spam" to me. I want to filter that feed to suit me.

Unfortunately the software doesn't allow that level of filtering.

I'd also caution hastily throwing rules together so that we lock down this, and lock down that. People will become disinterested very quickly if that happens. The site's only been up 36 hours. Let's not be too quick to jump in and pull the weeds out of the wheat when both are only just green sprouts that are hard to tell apart. That could cause more damage in the long run. Let's talk about it but try to avoid knee-jerk reactions. The site's "beta" afterall.

It's because I care about the site and want it to work that I believe we need to, all together, work to get it right now.

[masterchief]

People expressing themselves is exactly what the site is about, not companies expressing themselves. It's a subtle but important difference.

But I'm the only one in my company

Actually I've rethought my previous statement about groups. If a company has a group, made up of people interested in what that company does, and they follow the rules and don't conduct commercial advertising (hey, we've got 20% off this weekend) but use the group to bind the community, then I don't see the problem with that. Companies are made up of people, the site is about people ... _shrug_ There's also no reason to suggest a non-company group is inherently less-spammy, or more honourable than any other group, company or not.

[brad]

I've already seen people blatantly promoting their own products in groups not even created by them, or about their products. To me, that is far worse than this finer detail we're discussing here.

We'll get there though..

[brian]

If a company has a group, made up of people interested in what that company does, and they follow the rules and don't conduct commercial advertising (hey, we've got 20% off this weekend) but use the group to bind the community, then I don't see the problem with that. Companies are made up of people, the site is about people ... _shrug_ There's also no reason to suggest a non-company group is inherently less-spammy, or more honourable than any other group, company or not.

I stand by my statement that if a company wants to bind its users together then let them do it on their own web site using their own resources

[alledia]

I suspect that when it comes to groups for specific businesses and extensions:
1) Its definitely going to be tricky
2) The horse may already have bolted, at least for extensions

If we allow them:

• The only reasonable boundary I can see is whether a business or extension is listed on the JRD or JED.
• There should be a separate area for businesses as we have for extensions. Most of them are listing themselves under "General Groups" now.
• Anything added by a business and extension group should be controlled so that it only shows up inside that particular group and doesn't spill into other areas of the site.

[coolparth]

Well .. This is one thing thats got me superbly confused..

At first i got all excited & joined this group & that.. created a group for one of our free extensions, our Pune JUG & one for our company (not sure if thats allowed now) ..

I missed seeing some extensions we have for JomSocial that improve community experience.. & really felt they should be part of it. used the Feedback form to add my opinion. Is that ok ?

Have been getting invites to groups of extensions & companies & brands.. I have lots of questions.. maybe they can lead to some answers.

1. Can i discuss an idea about our forth coming extension & take ideas from the community ? I don't know if it will be free or paid..but it will be paid.. but i want to take feedback.. can I ?
2. Can I post links to blogs that are helpful non promoting but are posted on my company site ?
3. Can we create groups for our products ? free/paid GPL ?

As Brian said.. if we go by the Forum code of conduct then a lot of this can be self promotion company or individual & hence Spam..

But for a Social site to be successful, its necessary that some amount of freedom be given as it can help increase the information sharing.. look at twitter.. But yes we need to have guidelines & they need to be clear..

On another front can i turn of notifications on a group level ?

[JacquesR]

My view is that conduct rules can evolve.

What however requires urgent attention is the what type of groups are allowed, since it will be more disruptive to try and change that later.

Commercial Groups:

I'm sort of neutral about commercial (user) groups.

It would be simpler to exclude them, but then we exclude a big part of the Joomla community.

On Facebook (with all its privacy shortcomings), I've never felt bothered by commercial activity, since it would be my choice to join a commercial group or not.

Perhaps the software could be tweaked (similar to what Andrew said) to filter out the commercial feeds, or make it an opt-in choice.

One rule that we could already bring in, is that company/commercial groups are not allowed to send Friend requests or unsolicited private messages, and if they do, they should be reported.

The distinction between person and company is also not so black and white. For some, for instance, their name is their brand.

Allowing, or not allowing company names as user-names is also complicated, since the Forum allows it, and some may prefer to use the same nick. In my case I was lucky enough to be able to use my own name on the People site. (since I prefer that to a company name)

Regarding User Groups:

Official JUGs (that have already been approved) should be somehow identified as such (either the category or name), and should have to official contacts as Admin.

Those busy applying might have some Pending status to identify this, or some other mechanism to deal with this.

Perhaps the JUGs should also have at least 3 or 5 Admins, to be more inclusive.

Un-official User groups for greater areas (regions, states, countries) and language groups shouk be allowed (again with 3 to 5 admins minimum, within a certain time frame)

Groups with official-sounding names:
(like Joomla Training, Joomla Templates, Joomla Hosting, etc)

It may be better not to allow names like that, or to have strict rules for that. (like having a certain number of approved admins) This is to prevent abuse by individuals or companies.

Allowing too official-sounding group names may also limit the project (Joomla through OSM) from launching certain new initiatives in future.

Is the intention of "Joomla Training", for example, to offer training/support to people on the site? (that's what this and other forums are for, though some may prefer using a social site rather then a forum). Or to share training ideas with other training companies? (perhaps unlikely) Or just to share free training material (tutorials, videos)?

I'm not sure what alternative names could be used to the official-sounding ones, but I'm sure people can be a bit creative.


Involvement:

How do we get the 791+ people who already signed up to express their opinions, so that we don't end up with only the views of the regulars and the more opinionated on here?

Perhaps have a poll module on the People site to get feedback on certain questions?
(could formulate questions and options here, and then post a poll there?)

Or some announcement area on the front page there that links here? (the poll idea may be less intimidating to new or less vocal users)


(Edit: looks like I inadvertently discovered a long-lost profile name... will ask the mods to merge with my active profile: jconsultingza)

[brian]

2) The horse may already have bolted, at least for extensions

Completely disagree. A horse can always be called back

[jen4web]

JUGs (Joomla User Groups)

This one is slightly tricky as we have "official" regional based JUGs and clearly where they exist they should be able to be admins of a group of that name.

However because of the JUG rules we don't have things like national user groups so I see nothing wrong with having national groups as well.

Perhaps an easy guideline would be to only allow the recognised contact of a JUG to be an admin of a group called "City Official Joomla User Group"

JUGs registered with OSM/Joomla have an identified leader. That leader should be allowed to create and administer their group.

Official Joomla Days should also be allowed to have a group. I see J and Beyond has a group, but the group I created yesterday for Joomla Day New England (coming up on June 5) has yet to be approved.

Jen

[coolparth]

Agreed on taking this discussion to the people site.. One thing is sure.. people are getting more involved there than on the forums by the looks of it.. Not sure if its just the newness of it though..

[brian]

What however requires urgent attention is the what type of groups are allowed, since it will be more disruptive to try and change that later.

Agree

Commercial Groups:

I'm sort of neutral about commercial (user) groups.

It would be simpler to exclude them, but then we exclude a big part of the Joomla community.

Don't they have their own sites - this is a site for PEOPLE

The distinction between person and company is also not so black and white. For some, for instance, their name is their brand.

Allowing, or not allowing company names as user-names is also complicated, since the Forum allows it, and some may prefer to use the same nick.

But this is not the forum its a separate site with a separate log in and a separate aim

Groups with official-sounding names:
(like Joomla Training, Joomla Templates, Joomla Hosting, etc)

It may be better not to allow names like that, or to have strict rules for that. (like having a certain number of approved admins) This is to prevent abuse by individuals or companies.

Allowing too official-sounding group names may also limit the project (Joomla through OSM) from launching certain new initiatives in future.

Is the intention of "Joomla Training", for example, to offer training/support to people on the site? (that's what this and other forums are for, though some may prefer using a social site rather then a forum). Or to share training ideas with other training companies? (perhaps unlikely) Or just to share free training material (tutorials, videos)?

I actually thought its purpose was to "share training ideas with other training companies". If the day ever comes that Joomla offers official training, hosting, suport (and I hope it never does) then these groups can be renamed at the time.