Boundaries and Rules

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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby darb » Sat May 15, 2010 5:14 am

coolparth wrote:Well .. This is one thing thats got me superbly confused..

At first i got all excited & joined this group & that.. created a group for one of our free extensions, our Pune JUG & one for our company (not sure if thats allowed now) ..


This in my opinion is not right and should not be allowed.

The people part of Joomla.org is for the people to organize and connect not for products and not for companies in my opinion.

Example you can set up your own profile with links to your company but you can not set up your company with links to your company or products. You can set up a group that discuss ACL solutions for Joomla but you can not set up a group page with your product name/company name xxx that is a ACL solution is promoted.

I dont think we should permit specific product pages at all in theses group pages bcs these should be based on interests and for connecting people - not another showroom for your products or services.

Ps ! Thanks for setting this up for all Joomla guys! You know I have been talking a lot of doing this type of focus on the people behind Joomla for many years here and I believe this will have a great impact long term for Joomla and strengthen the bonds between those people.

Things will be more fun and engaging for Joomla people!
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby Hazzaa » Sat May 15, 2010 5:17 am

Final words. In a Joomla chat room one members mentioned POJ. Another replied POJ = Prisoners of Joomla.
PLEASE let's not make these words ring true

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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby himanshu981 » Sat May 15, 2010 5:21 am

Think about it, what if Facebook told every member that all company pages we getting deleted, all posts about anything commercial or promotional would be moderated, and that you can ONLY talk about personal stuff at their website? Think about it. That would be completely ludicrous.
This is a social networking website. Let people be social with each other. The "PEOPLE" will find what interests them and also will not be a part of something that they have no interest in.


See, in my opinion people.joomla.org has not at all any relation/competition to facebook or twitter. Facebook and twitter have no limites but our community has limited to JOOMLA. They are independent websites just for social networking but this people website has been incorporated in joomla.org.

If somebody just joined for fun in this website and not at all related to Joomla then there is no space for him/her.

Again major difference between them and ours one is FREE and Commercial. They are earning through advertisements and banners but we are NOT.

If anyone wants to advertise his products and showcase there must be an option for advertisements and banners or cpc etc.
Last edited by himanshu981 on Sat May 15, 2010 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby mediamagnate » Sat May 15, 2010 5:43 am

The very nature of a solid social network is that it is not as constrained by rules as say for example a traditional forum.

Let the users vote through their respective attendance / non-attendance of groups et al.

Joomla! already has enough "enforcement" issues which can cause confusion.

I would respectfully suggest J.org consider allowing the ecosystem to balance itself without constraining a social network with non-social rules.
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby Jenny » Sat May 15, 2010 5:53 am

Yeah I see J and Beyond as a group but, IMPO I don't think it should be. It is not an official event or group, it is a for profit commercial entity as far as I know. ( at least that is as far as I know, I am more than happy to be corrected on that point) .. so why is it a group, and why do they have an event if they are not about people but about commercial promotion? As far as I know it is commercial, which is one of the main things brought up in this thread - the commercial land grab. J and Beyond was quick to land grab on that (not my saying land grab, just reusing).

My Official user group for the JSOP program took time to approve. I can appreciate the time it took to approve because I am sure that it was being checked to make sure that the person starting it had the authority to start the group. That is a good thing.

I think Matt made very good points that helped me change my mind.. Joomla is about everyone, from the user to the developer, new to experienced, developer to implementer. What is the compelling reason to exclude? J and Beyond is just as valid as Jen's User Group as is the JSOP Group. There is a place for everyone, and everyone can be in their place and enjoy this awesome implementation of a great J! extension.

Just a note everyone on people.joomla.org.. do not use the J! logo contrary to the brand manual or the conditional use logos. Thanks.
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby darb » Sat May 15, 2010 5:54 am

mlipscomb wrote:I've taken the time to read through all the responses, formulate my own opinions....cont.


Great post Matt with great analysis and suggestions!

I am with you 99,9999 % :D
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby Jenny » Sat May 15, 2010 7:05 am

himanshu981 wrote:
Think about it, what if Facebook told every member that all company pages we getting deleted, all posts about anything commercial or promotional would be moderated, and that you can ONLY talk about personal stuff at their website? Think about it. That would be completely ludicrous.
This is a social networking website. Let people be social with each other. The "PEOPLE" will find what interests them and also will not be a part of something that they have no interest in.


See, in my opinion people.joomla.org has not at all any relation/competition to facebook or twitter. Facebook and twitter have no limites but our community has limited to JOOMLA. They are independent websites just for social networking but this people website has been incorporated in joomla.org.

If somebody just joined for fun in this website and not at all related to Joomla then there is no space for him/her.

Again major difference between them and ours one is FREE and Commercial. They are earning through advertisements and banners but we are NOT.

If anyone wants to advertise his products and showcase there must be an option for advertisements and banners or cpc etc.



I think that there are definite possibilities to monetize the site. Whether that is a good move or not is up to the community to decide. There is nothing wrong with it if it happens, and nothing wrong if it doesn't. It is a good idea to think about, the ramifications, the logistics and the implementation. Good idea!
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby damo » Sat May 15, 2010 7:09 am

How about, before jumping in with rules and controlling what people can and can not do on the site - sit back and see what happens with it.

Guidelines are a good idea but if the principle of 'if you can do it on your own site no place for it on this site' was enforced, there would be very little on this new site.

Rather than have people standing over this site looking to delete pages and ban people - empower the people/users to control what they see or don't see.

Adding this as I've just remembered something:

as for this no business or product groups; why not? i accept that it is called 'people.joomla.org' but isn't it a community. could the community not decide to be part of a group or not. isn't the point of having a social media platform to allow the users to decide

i think it also worth noting that joomla wouldn't be what it is today without the people who are contributing to its development through commercial ventures.

let the people decide. it is about the people isn't it?
Last edited by damo on Sat May 15, 2010 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby gobezu » Sat May 15, 2010 7:13 am

Good morning,

The proposed rules are meant to serve as a ground from which all of us and in particular the moderators to work. I believe The role of a moderator is fore and most to enforce these set of rules. Its hard enough to swift through such huge amount of data and it gets to a level of impossibility if we don't tell them what to look out for. So just to spell it out:
1. as user while registering and being active I need to know what's okay and what's not
2. as moderator I need to know what to act upon and what to not
3. as user I need to know what to report as breach of rules and not
4. as moderator I need to know if reported breach is actually a breach or not
For all of these actions taking place we need explicit rules and not the subjective opinion of moderators. Or else down the road it will create one mess.

So in that spirit and in the spirit of making things clear and explicit for everyone involved I do believe we should work on proposing to this excellent team on how they should modify the proposed set of rules and then put them in place so we can get moving forward.

As far as the proposed set of rules I find it quite balanced a good one to work from and I don't think we can wish for a more relaxed one with regard to any anticipated commercial messages going to be poured on us. Some very minor comments I have in addition to Brians comment here is:

1. None JED extensions shouldn't be allowed to create groups

2. In "Repercussions" its already stated "Those who do not follow the rules as stated below may be warned". Therefore I found it redundant/unnecessary/confusing that warning is stated elsewhere or if you choose to state it in once place you should make sure to be consistent and state it everywhere.

3. Why were the last set of rules shoved under a title called "Thumbs". It should get another suitable title as its quite unrelated to "Thumbs". Maybe the author got tired, quite understandable ...

Once again thanks to the team behind and keep it up!

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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby damo » Sat May 15, 2010 7:20 am

How about, if someone creates a group (for whatever purpose) they create the rules for that group

It isn't about moderators - that is why each group has their own 'admin

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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby akede » Sat May 15, 2010 7:27 am

Jenny wrote:Yeah I see J and Beyond as a group but, IMPO I don't think it should be. It is not an official event or group, it is a for profit commercial entity as far as I know. ( at least that is as far as I know, I am more than happy to be corrected on that point)


You might have realized that the organizer of the event is an entity called Mambo e.V. which will be renamed to Joomla Supporters Club e.V. soon. The e.V. is the abbreviation for "eingetragener Verein" which is a legal entity in Germany for social responsible association. It is possible to translate this to a non-for-profit association with the legal status of tax-reducable donations.

This fact excludes the commercial interest of the organizers for the event in itself. The association is not allowed to run for profit events based on their social and legal legitimations. Those companies that partner with the event doing their whole work free-of-charge totally.

As you see, this is not at all a for profit or commercial entity running this event. But your comment shows me that we might need to clarify this somewhere on our site so that people can understand better.

Jenny wrote:My Official user group for the JSOP program took time to approve. I can appreciate the time it took to approve because I am sure that it was being checked to make sure that the person starting it had the authority to start the group. That is a good thing.

I think Matt made very good points that helped me change my mind.. Joomla is about everyone, from the user to the developer, new to experienced, developer to implementer. What is the compelling reason to exclude? J and Beyond is just as valid as Jen's User Group as is the JSOP Group. There is a place for everyone, and everyone can be in their place and enjoy this awesome implementation of a great J! extension.


Beside that I hope that your group was accepted as well. I personally think having special interest groups is a good thing on a community platform such as people.j.org

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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby tresan » Sat May 15, 2010 9:02 am

Jennys point is still absolutly valid.

I dont believe there should be such a big ban on pulling businesses into the profiles pages - It gives live and will assure a high flow of thoughts, ideas and communication in and out.

Some of those videos uploaded of different extensions sure are nice to actually have in 1 place - you can go through a few and see things you would never get to thier own sites to see, and be inspired or in other ways get new ideas.

So yes, there has to be some limitations but basically, let not dig this into the "ways of before" and try and be a bit more open about forging together a platform for non-profits as well as profits all together, the point should be Joomla or not, not if people make money or not.
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby gobezu » Sat May 15, 2010 9:18 am

IMHO ... as there is already a proposed set of rules can't we be specific with regard to our comments and point out directly what and what not in the proposed set of rules.

Everything else is bound to create confusion and off topic conversations and takes so much energy away from the issue at hand which is getting peepl moving forward

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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby Beat » Sat May 15, 2010 9:42 am

carson3511 wrote:...

Maybe it's time to let the "Community" be a "Community".

....


This single sentence says it all, probably...

I see in this thread a try to draw many artificial lines, beyond obvious legal requirements (like foul language, racial or all-ages inappropriate content), using a "forum" approach.
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby mbabker » Sat May 15, 2010 10:06 am

If the user base is screaming "let us do this", why not listen to the user base?

Me personally, I hate being on a website and being told "this, this, this, and that aren't allowed, but there is this little bit you can do."

At one point in this thread, a comparison to Facebook was brought up. For those who use Facebook, you'll notice that there are large user groups that kick, moan, and scream every time Facebook changes things that the user base doesn't agree with; the latest being changing "Become a Fan" to "Like." It's come to a point that I've thought a few times about leaving that site because they continue to do things that upset their customer (the registered user) without focusing on what the customer wants.

If you immediately set out to restrict what can be done on the community site, you're going to have a community that'll be hesitant at best to use the site since there's so much that cannot be done on a social network.

I'm in agreeance with many of those who've posted in this thread. Let the community police itself. I think most will agree that the no commercial advertisement thing makes sense. This network presents a new opportunity for those with interests in finding, using, and improving extensions (and Joomla itself) to collaborate, why take it away?
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby masterchief » Sat May 15, 2010 10:20 am

mlipscomb wrote:a) Are GPL licensed with no per-domain usage restrictions
You can't join those two concepts together. I'd leave it at "Respect the Joomla code licensing policy". A company may have per-domain service contracts with customers for any number of reasons which are legitimate and are independent of the source code license (for example, support subscriptions may be made on a per install, per domain or similar contract) or even GPL'd domain checking licensing code (inane, but hey, it's possible). Whether the company can enforce all scenarios, or whether people think this makes good business sense, is open to debate, but irrelevant to the discussion.

Other than that, good post :)
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby himanshu981 » Sat May 15, 2010 10:29 am

Why moderation is mandatory, I said in my first conversation? Please have a look on this screenshot...
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby himanshu981 » Sat May 15, 2010 10:33 am

I have reported approx 20 spam events like Meriza's Birthday ha ha ha... Is this a Joomla EVENT?

Edited: Excepting 2-3 events all have been created for testing or spamming with abusive words. Please take a necessary step.
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby Beat » Sat May 15, 2010 10:51 am

himanshu981 wrote:I have reported approx 20 spam events like Meriza's Birthday ha ha ha... Is this is a Joomla EVENT?

Sure that's an EVENT :)

What's somebody's right to forbid a birthday party EVENT on a PEOPLEs site? ???

I wish Meriza a lot of attendees for the birthday ! ;)

A birthday is not a crime, foul or inappropriate for any age...and not spam too, spam is unwanted email. If you subscribe on a social site, it is to socialize, so events, contributions and invitations from other people on the same site are definitely not spam.

Let the community live and breath.

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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby himanshu981 » Sat May 15, 2010 11:11 am

OKAY!

There is an Idea to sum-up this discussion. But it needs again hard work of JomSocial Team and People.joomla.org development team.

Right Now this site is in a PUSH MODE. I mean to say when i come to site I find recent activities (which is already in discussion to be removed), Groups, Events.

I think there should be everything in a PULL MODE.

e.g. I just come to website and will be able to see only members photos. There should not be an option to view all members (Just need total number). If I want to find anyone then search and Advance search is available.

Events - It should not be available in TOP Menu. If I go to any person profile then I can check whether he/she is going to celebrate his/her birthday or marriage party bla bla bla.

Photo and Video albums should also be in profile only not in TOP Menu.

WHAT it will work - If any person keeps his portfolio/developed extension screenshots album whether its a commercial activity or personal in his profile, it will not be visible to everyone directly. It will never come again and again in front of my eyes while browsing Main page.

Again, If that person/company needs attention then advertisement slabs should be there.
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby zorkhh » Sat May 15, 2010 11:16 am

what a strange discussion as long as the Rochen-Ad is active on the frontpage.

I'm not a friend of these Company Groups too, but what can you say if the second largest group (at the moment) is a Rockettheme group?

Quote: Maybe it's time to let the "Community" be a "Community".

BTW: who is changing the names of the Groups without any notice to the group owner?

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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby himanshu981 » Sat May 15, 2010 11:34 am

Beat wrote:
himanshu981 wrote:I have reported approx 20 spam events like Meriza's Birthday ha ha ha... Is this is a Joomla EVENT?

Sure that's an EVENT :)

.................................
Let the community live and breath.

Respectfully, with freedom and peace,


Please dont mind Beat, you are right in your way. But its giving a confusion here whether I will get Joomla Events like Expo, Joomla Day, Joomla Training Seminars etc information under Events Menu or it will have all events like this... I think this type of events should be in a PULL Mode as said in my above post.
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby brad » Sat May 15, 2010 11:56 am

zorkhh wrote:BTW: who is changing the names of the Groups without any notice to the group owner?

What is a group owner?

I know people can create groups and add admins, as well as moderate them in a limited way, but not own them.
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby brian » Sat May 15, 2010 11:59 am

"owned" is Philipe and Sandra's terminology
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby zorkhh » Sat May 15, 2010 12:04 pm

@Brad: Replace it with "Creator", "Admin", "Member", "User", "Person who wants to take part in the community and created an interesting Group".

Whatever you like most...
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby damo » Sat May 15, 2010 12:05 pm

zorkhh wrote:BTW: who is changing the names of the Groups without any notice to the group owner?
Thomas

is this really happening?

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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby Beat » Sat May 15, 2010 12:09 pm

brad wrote:
zorkhh wrote:BTW: who is changing the names of the Groups without any notice to the group owner?

What is a group owner?

I know people can create groups and add admins, as well as moderate them in a limited way, but not own them.


That's a very good question, I didn't even think of such an obvious question! :eek:

So, according to the first registered user and admin of the people.joomla.org site, who owns the groups ?
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby mark_up » Sat May 15, 2010 12:14 pm

Beat wrote:So, according to the first registered user and admin of the people.joomla.org site, who owns the groups ?


All our base are belong to OSM.
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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby damo » Sat May 15, 2010 12:22 pm

I've just tried to create a group and it isn't showing up - under moderation.
I was only doing it to see if the Rochen group was going to leave the front page - as there would have been a more recent group then.

I know this will ruffle feathers and the perfect excuse to remove it is to say it was off topic, but what is the point of having a moderated community portal?

I mean, what is the point of using Jomsocial if it is going to be controlled like a forum.

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Re: Boundaries and Rules

Postby zorkhh » Sat May 15, 2010 12:26 pm

Rochen was the last group that was approved. Since then a lot of groups have been created but not approved yet.

I think to stop the group approval was basically OK to clearify first what should be allowed and what not.
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