Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license change

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Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license change

Postby porwig » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:11 am

This thread is for discussing the following blog:
Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license change
Paul Orwig

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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby brian » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:40 am

Joomla was founded on the principle of Open Source Matters and a change to using the LGPL licence for the framework is completely against that. For those of you that don't know the LGPL allows the code to be included in proprietary, closed source software.

How does allowing people to produce closed source software with the Joomla Framework support the principle of Open Source Matters?

Just another rant?
Before you think this is Brian just going off on a rant of his own I'm not alone with this view. The Free Software Foundation, the people behind both the GPL and LGPL licences, agree.

But we should not listen to these temptations, because we can achieve much more if we stand together. We free software developers should support one another. By releasing libraries that are limited to free software only, we can help each other's free software packages outdo the proprietary alternatives. The whole free software movement will have more popularity, because free software as a whole will stack up better against the competition.

Source https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-not-lgpl.html available in multiple languages.

It doesn't effect Joomla?
The proposal states that this change is only for the Framework and it has no effect on the CMS but once again that is not 100% true.

Joomla is licenced GPLv2 or later but, and this is very important, the GPLv2 licence is NOT compatible with the LGPL v3 licence. Source: The perils of LGPLv3. Now to be fair the proposal statement doe not mention which version of the LGPL would be chosen but if we assume it is the latest version then that would mean a change in the licence for Joomla would be required as well.

So a statement that says "This potential license change would only apply to the Joomla Framework, but not to the Joomla Content Management System (CMS)." is, potentially, not true. IF the Framework uses LGPLv3 then Joomla would need to change its own licence to GPLv3 in order to use its own framework.

But our competitors use LGPLv3?
While some use a more permissive licence than the GPL others do not. Drupal for example uses GPLv3.

Who benefits?
The only people that really benefit are those people who want to take the Framework and use it in a proprietary piece of software. Are those same people likely to contribute to the Framework itself and help to develop it?

Open Source Matters
This is our founding principle. If someone won't use the Joomla framework because they want to use it to produce closed source, proprietary software then tough luck go and find another php framework to use.

In Summary
    This is against the principle of Open Source Matters
    This would, probably, mean changing the licence of Joomla to GPLv3
    The argument about competition is irrelevant.
    This only benefits those who wish to take open source software and use it in proprietary closed source software.
    And once againt this is against the principle of Open Source Matters
Last edited by brian on Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby alexred » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:53 am

brian wrote:In Summary
    This is against the principle of Open Source Matters
    This would, probably, mean changing the licence of Joomla to GPLv3
    The argument about competition is irrelevant.
    This only benefits those who wish to take open source software and use it in proprietary closed source software.
    And once againt this is against the principle of Open Source Matters

+1 brian
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby infograf768 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:20 am

++
NO LGPL
I agree totally with Brian, as I stated already in the former discussions.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby worshipper » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:23 am

**NO LGPL** please...

totally agree with Brian
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby nonumber » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:39 am

NO to LGPL
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby Chris Hoefliger » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:43 am

NO, absolutely NO to LGPL

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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby bp72 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:45 am

*NO LGPL* please

100% agree with Brian

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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby rbuelund » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:54 am

No to LGPL !
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby David-Andrew » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:55 am

NO to LGPL
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby aqualuso » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:03 pm

Brian Teeman has his finger on the pulse.
A big NO to relicensing. Closed source, proprietary software is not Open Source Software!
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby rued » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:05 pm

No to LGPL, Brian is right - it would be a bad move!
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby anibal_sanchez » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:11 pm

No to LGPL

Stop with the legal stuff, stick to a single vision.

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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby cybie » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:12 pm

brian wrote:In Summary
    This is against the principle of Open Source Matters
    This would, probably, mean changing the licence of Joomla to GPLv3
    The argument about competition is irrelevant.
    This only benefits those who wish to take open source software and use it in proprietary closed source software.
    And once againt this is against the principle of Open Source Matters


NO to LPGL

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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby Tonie » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:13 pm

No to the LGPL.

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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby Radek Suski » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:14 pm

I'm very glad we can publicly talk about it. Thanks Paul for asking.

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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby Alex Dobrin » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:22 pm

No to the LGPL from me too.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby daneel » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:24 pm

No to the LGPL.

100% agree with Brian

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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby stell » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:44 pm

Competition is always relevant. Best of both Worlds.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby vdrover » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:57 pm

The idea of working together against proprietary software vendors is important. I must say I had not considered that before. And re-licensing the CMS is a complete non-starter.

If the latter was not an issue, my thought is that although "increased adoption" of the platform/framework would be great, it's not a significant justification.

What is more important to me is the folks who developed the framework/platform and are currently developing it (PLT). If they are requesting it, are we in danger of a developer exodus if we don't change the license?

Expanding on that, when Miro changed the Mambo license against the developers wishes, it caused a split. Is the LGPL another watershed moment where NOT changing the license could have the same affect?
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby brian » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:03 pm

vdrover wrote:
Expanding on that, when Miro changed the Mambo license against the developers wishes, it caused a split. Is the LGPL another watershed moment where NOT changing the license could have the same affect?


Small point of historical correction the Mambo/Joomla split was not caused by any change in licence. Miro neither did nor proposed to change the licence from GPLv2.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby vdrover » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:11 pm

Can you remind me of what DID cause the split? I thought it was licensing.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby Eraser » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:15 pm

NO to LGPL
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby brian » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:17 pm

vdrover wrote:Can you remind me of what DID cause the split? I thought it was licensing.


For the full reason please read Andrew's letter at the time viewtopic.php?f=8&t=72

Licensing was never part of it
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby Taris » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:18 pm

I do agree with Brian.
to Brian: Excellent post of yours
http://brian.teeman.net/joomla/820-joom ... gpl-say-no
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby jcarloos » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:18 pm

brian wrote:In Summary
    This is against the principle of Open Source Matters
    This would, probably, mean changing the licence of Joomla to GPLv3
    The argument about competition is irrelevant.
    This only benefits those who wish to take open source software and use it in proprietary closed source software.
    And once againt this is against the principle of Open Source Matters


+1000 Brian

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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby Robin » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:22 pm

I'm not here to say yes, or no, to this license change. It just happens to have been covered in an article which might help people with some more background. See http://opensource.com/business/14/1/wha ... ce-project .

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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby vdrover » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:24 pm

So the split was a copyright issue. In any case, my question remains: Is this another watershed moment?
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby brian » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:25 pm

vdrover wrote:So the split was a copyright issue. In any case, my question remains: Is this another watershed moment?


No it was much more than that as Andrew explained in the link I provided.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Postby Aidan38 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:26 pm

No to the LGPL.
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