Discuss: Joomla 1.6 Beta Released

[dhuelsmann]

see http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p ... 0#p2300410

[seriously]

As has been pointed out numerous times throughout this topic and in this blog http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leade ... gears.html

Those time based beta releases will continue until we have eliminated all priority 1-3 issues from the tracker and the system is polished enough for a general availability release.

No offense Dave, but you didn't answer my question at all. I can read, and I've seen that an RC will be released once all of the 1 & 2 priority items have been tackled. That still means nothing to me time wise, since I am not developing Joomla, and I suspect it means nothing to anyone else who's in my situation either.

I think some developers forget that they still have a responsibility to the community, even if this is an open source project.

I get that you guys are volunteering your time, and I get that you are the ones doing the work, but you can still answer the question when asked, "What is an estimated time frame for an RC?"

Many Joomla users do have their own projects under development, and decisions to make that would directly effected by the time of an RC, so giving an estimation is helpful and respectful to the community.

I haven't seen anyone not acknowledge your hard work(developers) and praise the Joomla project before asking when a time estimate might be for a release candidate, so since people are so forthcoming to show their respect and admiration for the work being done, the least you can do is humor us with a possible guestimate for a release candidate.

Thanks in Advance.

[dhuelsmann]

Check the Beta releases you will find in this one

Code: Select all

This is the 13thin our series of continuous beta releases. Beta 14 (or possibly 1.6 Release Candidate 1) will be released on November 15, 2010.

[kilimanjaro]

I'm looking forward for 1.6 RC

BTW, is Joomla 1.6 going to spend significantly less server/CPU resources than 1.5? My site is extremely sloooow because of CPU usage (I had to hack it a few times to tone it down a bit)

[mcsmom]

It's really impossible. Some issue are easy to fix, some take weeks. You can't always predict, just as Microsoft can't always accurately predict. So which is better, to give a date and miss it? Or to be honest and say you don't know.

Nothing stops anyone from learning to develop by the way. You can do language and typo patches to start. Or you can pay someone to help close hard issues.

[seriously]

Sorry guys, I didn't see Beta 14 or possibly RC 1, at the time I wrote what I wrote. That must mean you are getting close, but I still stand by my point, that it's not a big deal to give a guestimate. People understand english and even if they don't, you're not obligated to do anything or to stand by the date. If you don't make the date no big deal, but I do think, to answer ,csmom, that no, it's not better to not give a date versus give a date and miss the date.

I trust you developers to some degree even though I've never met you. It's because you have a certain degree of ability to the task at hand, much like in any profession.

When I take my car to the mechanics, I have full understanding that when they give me a guesstimate or the time and costs, that it might not pan out, but it's way better service to try because people can make some sort of base plan around it.

I think that because you guys are working for free, (although admittedly it's a real plus on a resume and will pay off for you down the road), that you feel you are entitled to be vague about it. Do us a favor and tell us where you're at, even if it pans out to be wrong.

You'll get the respect you give.

At this point, I have already praised you guys and have already given you respect, but you're just throwing it away when I ask you for a guestimate and you reply with. "It will be ready when it's ready".. that kind of reply is ignorant, and after all, we're not grease monkeys here.. get it?

[dhuelsmann]

@seriously: You have been given the answer that is available. Beating a dead horse with repetition will not get you a different answer.

[seriously]

It's really impossible. Some issue are easy to fix, some take weeks. You can't always predict, just as Microsoft can't always accurately predict. So which is better, to give a date and miss it? Or to be honest and say you don't know.

Nothing stops anyone from learning to develop by the way. You can do language and typo patches to start. Or you can pay someone to help close hard issues.

Sorry, I couldn't resist, but Microsoft is a terrible example to quote about prediction. If you have your ducks in a row, and your organization & communication between people is at an except-able level, then it's easier to give guestimate. Microsoft is the epitome of the sour developer holding the user hostage. Microsoft is a secretive, totalitarian company. I would expect developers from Microsoft to shrug off user questions, like a stuck up Queen would shrug off commoners, and that's why their website, still today is totalitarian. It's not user interactive. There are no discussion oor forums or places to leave community feedback. They're dictators. If that's the kind of developer you want to be, good luck with maintaining a lifetime career. The Microsoft mentality is on the way out the door.

I never said anything would stop me from developing. I am developing things all the time, but I don't have the resources to spend at this time. Besides, just answer the question, instead of trying to dissuade the topic at hand. Just answer the question.

Just answer the question.
Just answer the question.
Just answer the question.

Thanks.

[seriously]

@seriously: You have been given the answer that is available. Beating a dead horse with repetition will not get you a different answer.

This project will become a dead horse if the people driving it can't grasp the commonly held high valued practice of the concept of service.

I'm assuming Joomla will one day be made for purchase if not under a different name, by some of the members of the current team..you'll know what I'm talking about if you're involved at that time.

[Janmos]

OSM could really do a better job raising donations for Joomla Core team.

If Joomla followed http://www.centos.org/ in less shamelessly embracing sponsors and put a BIG donate button at the top of the page, the whole Joomla ecosystem would become stronger than it is currently.

[mcsmom]

Janmos, it would be great if you would sign up as a sponsor. The information on how to do so is on joomla.org and of course there are donate buttons throughout the websites. It's fantastic that you want to do that; more people should.

Seriously,
So, here's the thing. We can all guess and say it will be RC before the end of the year. If that makes you happy, and you promise not to complain if it is not true, great go ahead and work with it.
We can say we hope RC will only last 2 months. Again, if that makes you happy and if you don't mind that it might be completely inaccurate and promise not to make rude posts if it isn't true, more power to you and enjoy it.
For everyone else, truth is, though, do we know if some major problem is going to emerge in RC? No. Could some new complex issue show up in the tracker this week that takes a month to solve? Certainly possible. So as with anything involving software I would not schedule things around anticipated release dates whatever their source. If you are testing and reporting your results to help make all that happen sooner.

[seriously]

Janmos, it would be great if you would sign up as a sponsor. The information on how to do so is on joomla.org and of course there are donate buttons throughout the websites. It's fantastic that you want to do that; more people should.

Seriously,
So, here's the thing. We can all guess and say it will be RC before the end of the year. If that makes you happy, and you promise not to complain if it is not true, great go ahead and work with it.
We can say we hope RC will only last 2 months. Again, if that makes you happy and if you don't mind that it might be completely inaccurate and promise not to make rude posts if it isn't true, more power to you and enjoy it.
For everyone else, truth is, though, do we know if some major problem is going to emerge in RC? No. Could some new complex issue show up in the tracker this week that takes a month to solve? Certainly possible. So as with anything involving software I would not schedule things around anticipated release dates whatever their source. If you are testing and reporting your results to help make all that happen sooner.

Thanks, that's all I was after.
I don't expect to hold you to anything. I know how things can change.
All I wanted was to know where you're at roughly.

If all of the developers mysteriously died in plane crashes, it might take another year.. I get it. Or if there is a mysterious piece of code that you just can't seem to find it could take more time. So thanks for actually trying to guestimate, I really appreciate it and all of the work you guys have done over the years.

I had no idea if it was getting close or if I should rebuild with typolight because it might take another 6 months to have an RC and then a 1.6.0.
Typolight looks like it has more options, but I trust joomla more and really want to see it win the battle of all of the CMS projects out there.

I'm just not good enough with PHP to do much at this level, and don't have much spare time right now, or I would try to help.

Perhaps you might consider something that typolight does, that might raise more funds for the devs.. you could charge a fee for the really good add-ons, like take a small cut out of all of the best ones.. then you'd get a piece of the action on a regular basis.. it would only be fair if you get a cut from some of the 3rd parties making commercial money off your work.

However, I can see Joomla taking off as a purchasable project after 1.6. The ACL is the key component that will surge a huge growth in using Joomla. I don't know the physics of how it would happen, but I would bet money Joomla will not be free for too much longer (a year or two) if not because it is under a different name and license or whatever.

Things almost always start free, but never stay that way if they are any good.

[stutteringp0et]

Things almost always start free, but never stay that way if they are any good.

Like Linux, PHP, MySQL, Apache, x.org, KDE, Gnome, android, and a thousand other open source apps that are here to stay until something equally good and free comes into existence?

I've heard this story before....Lets see if I can remember how it goes...

Miro International changes the environment surrounding Mambo development and a group of developers fork the project and Joomla is born.

In the future, someone might make a decision that ends the Joomla project. The only thing that should be a question is, what will the name of the fork be?

Mambo was cool, it's what converted me to using a CMS. Joomla 1.0 wasn't much of a difference, but 1.5 was a big difference. I'm really looking forward to 1.6 and beyond - whatever it's called.

[seriously]

Things almost always start free, but never stay that way if they are any good.

Like Linux, PHP, MySQL, Apache, x.org, KDE, Gnome, android, and a thousand other open source apps that are here to stay until something equally good and free comes into existence?

I've heard this story before....Lets see if I can remember how it goes...

Miro International changes the environment surrounding Mambo development and a group of developers fork the project and Joomla is born.

In the future, someone might make a decision that ends the Joomla project. The only thing that should be a question is, what will the name of the fork be?

Mambo was cool, it's what converted me to using a CMS. Joomla 1.0 wasn't much of a difference, but 1.5 was a big difference. I'm really looking forward to 1.6 and beyond - whatever it's called.

Lots of forks get squashed too.
Dangle a money carrot in front of a dev, and things can change.
The more valuable the software is, the more the carrots get plucked from the ground.

The examples you mention are part commercially viable and part not.

I've worked for an ecommerce that transferred over a billion dollars in 1 year.
They started with PHP(early early), moved to CF, moved to Java eventually because the previous just can't execute in ways java can.
If you move bucks, projects move, source moves and devs get replaced.

php is not the choice of anyone that moves big money, so joomla is already outdated.. but the joomla devs just need to take joomla to the extent it can go with php, and then it can be sold and translated to the next language.

just my thoughts from experience

[newjoom_user]

Excellent work i am huge fan of Joomla and i want to know stable version of joomla 1.6 Every one is waiting for it.
Is there any ruf idea when it will be release?

[Tonie]

When it's ready, but probably not this year.

[mcsmom]

Down to about 8 RC blockers.

[Tonie]

Good, it's getting there. Must be a big relieve for everybody involved if RC 1 can be released.

[JGary]

When it's ready, but probably not this year.

That's not an answer. If you don't know or don't have the answer then stop responding.

mcsmom has on the other hand been very informative and has helped me decide when to consider a move to J1.6

Regular and early BETA's also helps and I appreciate the extra effort that goes into continuous integration.

In terms of adoption, I will not move forward with new Joomla (J1.5 or J1.6) sites until there is much better J1.6 documentation. My reasons are simple, Until I know that there is a clear upgrade path, I will not create J1.5 sites (wasting my time and customers $$$). Until I have a better understanding of when extension developers support 1.6, I can't use J1.6

I suggest two things. First, help extension developers move toward adoption. They don't want to support two (three?) versions anymore than Joomla developers. Second, keep everyone in sync with a longterm roadmap. It's impossible to plan without knowing when to expect certain things. It's understandable to miss dates, stuff happens. But people need to stop hiding behind the "It's impossible to know when" excuse. All that really says is that no one has (or is capable of) of performing the appropriate analysis. And that scares me! How can a project be taken seriously if the standard reply continues to be "when it's ready"? A more professional answer would to be something like J1.6 will be released in [MONTH] [YEAR] plus or minus [X] weeks.

Please, Joomla project managers, start communicating like the excellent Joomla developers are developing!

[Tonie]

The current release cycle has been far from perfect, which is acknowledged by the dev team. The next Joomla versions will be time based instead of being feature based. More information about that here: http://developer.joomla.org/strategy.html. (1.6 still shows as being released in september). As long as new bugs are found, and not enough of the current ones are fixed no final will be released. As nobody knows how long this takes, no date can and will be given by the dev team.

[JGary]

...As long as new bugs are found, and not enough of the current ones are fixed no final will be released. As nobody knows how long this takes, no date can and will be given by the dev team.

Again, at the risk of beating a "dead horse", a date CAN be given. Your assumption that it is impossible to give a date is flawed. Worse, that assumption seems to be the prevailing wisdom on this project.

The project managers (whom ever they are) have chosen not to provide release dates. That's a choice. There are many great tools and many established ways to estimate release dates. And, because J1.6 was wisely locked down at Milestone 2, there is very good data defect (in/out) data that can be used to show the trend.

Communicating a release plan with release dates helps others plan. No dates is an indication of a lack of experienced PM's. This is no slight to the developers - they are exceptional. In fact, it's precisely the high quality source code which is keeping Joomla alive.

I am sure you will continue to repeat the "no one knows" mantra ... which simply serves to convince me even more that I have made the right decision for now.

[brian]

You assume there is some great PM in the sky controlling things. That assumption is wrong.

[mcsmom]

There are most certainly people managing the release and they have already said that after 1.6 we will be switching to timed releases and a stable trunk model in response to this need. However, 1.6 is a feature release and until those features are ready and until the trunk is free of major issues it is not going to be released.
As Mark pointed out on list recently we are now down to about 10 blockers and making good progress mainly because, thanks to project management, the tone of development has changed to being positive and intensely focused on major issues and blockers. We've made spectacular progress on the blockers and other areas in the last month or so thanks to this change. Although I think Mark is being optimistic in thinking the next beta could be an RC I wouldn't bet against RC before the end of November.

[JGary]

...However, 1.6 is a feature release and until those features are ready and until the trunk is free of major issues it is not going to be released....
As Mark pointed out on list recently we are now down to about 10 blockers and making good progress mainly because, thanks to project management, the tone of development has changed to being positive and intensely focused on major issues and blockers. We've made spectacular progress on the blockers and other areas in the last month or so thanks to this change. Although I think Mark is being optimistic in thinking the next beta could be an RC I wouldn't bet against RC before the end of November.

Thank you. Again...My point is being missed. Features were locked down at Milestone 2. J1.6 has been feature complete for months and the bug squad has been hard at work finding and fixing bugs. The bug tracker is a great source of data to determine an approximate release date.

It's not to late now to spend a few hours, do a few calculations and come up with an accurate release predication. You did that intuitively when you "guessed" that RC 1 would be out before the end of November.

Back to my point... Adoptions... There is a missing ingredient that continues to be overlooked. Products are more than the "code". When you guess that RC1 would be out before the end of November, you were not considering all the work. For you, it must be enough to get the build. Because I assure you, the documentation and the Extensions Site will not support J1.6 by the end of the month. "Timed releases" alone is not going to fix the communication gap.

This is my last post on this thread...My comments appear to be directed to the wrong people since I was hoping some of the PM's would read it.

[JGary]

You assume there is some great PM in the sky controlling things. That assumption is wrong.

If this is directed toward my comments. Read again because you and I agree on this. There is no great PM controlling this project. There may be hundreds of Mediocre PM...I don't know about that but if there was one PM out there that actually understood the users (Template Developers, Extension Developers, Web Designers) then there would be better communication and more focus on deployment.

The PM's appear to be doing well at coordinating the Joomla developers and Bug Squad. Now, they need to turn their attention toward users.

Really my last comment.

[Siddan]

Hello

I just found this thread searching about something totally different...
But instead of guessing dates, what would be your thoughts if the J1.6 estimation progress could be presented in percentage instead?

I dunno, but if they do know what exactly have to be done before making 1.6 a full version, and by their given free time, why not set up a percentage of each completed area? Even if it is only 5% left of being completed, the time could still take between one week and one year, depending how many hours they spend on it. But it still gives me a grasp of how much is left before it is 100% done.

If there are total of 10 000 trackers and 5000 of them are completed, then it is 50% done.

Do I make any sense of what I am trying to say? Just a suggestion, eventhough I know nothing about how the development is working

[seriously]

Hello

I just found this thread searching about something totally different...
But instead of guessing dates, what would be your thoughts if the J1.6 estimation progress could be presented in percentage instead?

I dunno, but if they do know what exactly have to be done before making 1.6 a full version, and by their given free time, why not set up a percentage of each completed area? Even if it is only 5% left of being completed, the time could still take between one week and one year, depending how many hours they spend on it. But it still gives me a grasp of how much is left before it is 100% done.

If there are total of 10 000 trackers and 5000 of them are completed, then it is 50% done.

Do I make any sense of what I am trying to say? Just a suggestion, eventhough I know nothing about how the development is working

I think that's a great idea, and it might drive momentum for people to get in there and help if there is only 5% left. In fact I would never even have asked where you(JDevs) were at if that was set up. Seeing the Beta 1,2,3, etc doesn't tell me anything but a percentage would.

[realityking]

While this sounds tempting you have to relaize that new issues are reported every day. Just looking a priority 1 and 2 issues (those most important to get out of the way but I'd argue there are still quite a few priority 3 issues that need to be fixed before an RC) :
-Currently there are 11 open issues
-9(!) of these open issues have been reported since the last beta (there were quite a few more that have already been fixed)
-2 have been closed since the last beta
-17(!) have been fixed since the last beta, at least one of them has been on the tracker since July
-98 new issues have been reported since the last beta 8I bet we will complete the hundered tomorrow.
-Overall by my count there were more then 50 issues fixed since the last beta
-Currently there are 166 open issues on the tracker

So you can see there is quite a bit of activity on the tracker, but there is no way to know how many issues there are no one has reported yet.

The best way to help to get Joomla 1.6 released is to download the beta (or better check out the current svn trunk) and report any issues you find (small ones too!). Even better if you can test patches and/or code fixes youself. (Some of them just involve modifing some CSS - but somebody has to do it!)

[mcsmom]

Great summary realityking. It's completely true. We know that as soon as RC comes out there will be a big rush of new issues too. All software has issues and the idea that there is a way to make a list and cross things off like going to the grocery story does not reflect the reality of either software development, problem reporting or code.

There are some issues that will likely never be fixed unless someone decides that it is really personally important to himself or herself.

@JGary,

Any user who wants to influence development is welcome to join in reporting issues supplying patches or participate in the 1.7 process when the time comes. As long as you can work in a team context and do not continually distract other people from their work you will be welcomed with open arms.

Anyway, the JED site is already listing 1.6 extensions and there are lots of people writing 1.6 docs.. I assume you are too if this is an area of concern of yours. If you want to know when something will be released consider now how much time or funding you are willing to put in the task . It's not something I enjoy doing but perhaps you would like to spend maybe 50 hours on it in the next 2-3 weeks and write it up? Because for any task it's simply a matter of someone having the time and ability to do that work. If a having an exact date is such a big a priority for you, and maybe like a lot of us you can't just throw down 50 hours in the next couple of weeks, it's easy, offer to fund a full time person to do that work and convince the PLT that it would actually help them to have such a person. From the sound of how important this schedule is to you and your business it would be well worth it for you. Who knows maybe you could even get away with funding a half time person? I suspect that the team will really thank you for letting them spend more time on code and less time on management. Thanks for offering your help!

Alternatively you can just say ok sometime before the end of 2012 and you can be 100% safe of that I am postitve.

[JGary]

Alternatively you can just say ok sometime before the end of 2012 and you can be 100% safe of that I am postitve.

Let's all do what we can to make Joomla the best. Hopefully we can do better than this suggestion.