The Joomla! Forum ™

Introduction
I have been playing around with Joomla for a few months now and generally have really enjoyed doing so. I think Joomla is a great piece of work and in terms of the CMS itself the only thing that is a real minus in my view is the way things are driven by menus not structure.

Still, as a matter of fact and not of criticism, there is room for improvement in a few areas that are ancillary to the CMS itself. There are small but bothersome things, such as the messy layout on many pages in the Development section, but those will get solved as time goes by. The one thing that I do not expect to be solved as things go is the involvement of new developers, and I would like to make a suggestion in this regard.

Issue
In my view, Joomla is something of a framework. It works out of the box, but in truth it is intended to be customised and extended. Hence the use of templates as extensions, the GPL licence and the ability to install extensions. So, it is only logical that Joomla users start developing their own extensions, and that goes for beginning coders (such as myself) as much as for professional developers. The posts in the forums confirm this, and unsurprisingly the forums are a wealth of information in addition to the Developers section.

However, the information about making or changing extensions for Joomla is incomplete, sometimes inaccurate (which often is unavoidable due to version differences), and generally fragmented and spread out. There are efforts by some to fill this hole by writing tutorials or books, but by their very nature those have a general approach and limited detail.

Moreover, for beginning coders it is not only a matter of finding the information, it also comes down to understanding what to do with it. For example, I found quite a bit of information about the JDatabase class but that does not mean I really understand what to use when.

Suggestion
My suggestion is to try and create a mentored beginning coders program similar to the way GHOPC enriched the Joomla community.

I imagine a program whereby people can submit a request in a specified format detailing the idea they plan to implement and some other information. A pool of mentors composed of experienced Joomla coders can welcome or reject the request dependent on the merrits of the case. If accepted, a mentor helps the beginning coder along the path of development by pointing in the right direction. Conditions would of course be attached, such as that the resulting extension would be published under the GPL. Another condition that I thought might be interesting is to expect from beginning developers that they blog their progress and the way they solved their difficulties, and/or comment in their files why they coded what they did in the way they did it.

Not all coding takes place in summer and not all beginning coders are students, so the idea is to open up a program as suggested to anyone interested.

Mentoring could take place by answering specific questions in addition to the forums space for posting quesitons, and also proactively by suggesting better, safer or quicker ways to go about things. The mentoring does not need to result in private lessons or even pseudo-outsourcing, and should not relieve beginning coders from searching through Joomla, php, MySQL and other information sources, but an experienced coder familiar with a project will probably often be able to see immediately how to solve a particular problem. In forums, on the other hand, solutions are not always forthcoming because one would have to go through code which is either long or incomplete and always unfamiliar.

It could well be that beginning coders will come up with new or improved extensions, or contribute to the Joomla community and development in other ways - for example once they have gained experience they can write tutorials or act as mentors themselves. If some way is thought of to organise the blogs I suggested then these could become a rich resource. Seasoned developers will get a better insight in the perspective of beginning coders which will help them writing relevant documentation (tutorials, references, wiki, books, etc.). Furthermore, through such a program some standards can be encouraged, such as making extensions ready for other languages, security best practices, etc. (in the fullness of time I think Joomla should have some best practice standards certification anyway). Finally one could limit mentored development to v1.5 so as to encourage extensions development.
To summarise the advantages: this suggestion is a community way to grow the community.

Question
Of course I am interested to hear what the people driving Joomla think of this suggestion!

There is a whole forum (set of forums actually) dedicated to beginner coders (not just for beginners though ) Joomla Coding 101  It has almost everything you have touched upon, except it may need more input from more experienced users helping those less experienced.  I think once 1.5 is out the door, the amount of time more experienced people can spend helping others on the forums will increase.  Right now most are helping test and debug.

Check it out, as a new coder myself I have found a lot of great information there.

_________________
Co-author of the Official Joomla! Book http://officialjoomlabook.com
Marpo Multimedia http://marpomultimedia.com

Yes, the coding 101 forum definitely fills a need and I have used it gratefully, and I appreciate that seasoned developers will be able to participate more in the forums once 1.5 is in the clear.

However my suggestion goes a bit further to cover aspects that a forum by its nature cannot address alone. The idea that there should or could be more than a forum is not new, and in fact there are several posts in the coding 101 forums (unfortunately of 'before my time') suggesting ways to bring together beginning and experienced developers.

For example, while forum replies answer specific questions, a mentor could also give pointers as to how to do things in a better way, and when a mentor is familiar with a project he/she will sometimes more easily/quickly understand a question (part of the problem of beginners is that it is not always easy to ask the right question).

Understandably time constraints and priorities are a hurdle for the creation of extensive and complete Joomla information. Forums are part of the solution but using beginning coders to document their efforts would go a long way towards the remainder of the solution.

I would also hope that a progam as suggested would result in a meeting place for beginning developers for peer to peer help and collaboration.

There is also the skype chat room too.  You can always put your ideas for a project on the forum to see if there are collaborators wanting to work with you off forum.

Anything that people want to create off forum, in terms of collaboration is of course up to the people that wish to do it.  The sky is really the limit there.  Good luck with your project.

_________________
Co-author of the Official Joomla! Book http://officialjoomlabook.com
Marpo Multimedia http://marpomultimedia.com

The idea to get people in and guide them is a very good one. The only problem I see is the amount of time it takes. Current GHOP is already taking some of us to the limits, and organizing this in a structural way is very hard because of that. We will surely evaluate the program and see if we can implement all the possitive this program brings into the project.

_________________
Personal blogs can be found on http://JFoobar.org

Thanks - obviously launching a new program is dependent on when there is enough time but there is no particular hurry.

The fact that GHOP takes a lot of time probably proves the concept as such is successful, and an in-house Joomla program could extend its success to non-students.

Thinking about it I wonder how much overlap there is between the core/workgroup team members and the experienced extension developers.. I am just playing with thoughts but if there is little overlap perhaps a program like this could be used to pull in some efforts from them?

You read my mind 

For a long time I have been thinking on how to get more people involved, witout overwhelming them. This is a matter of creating an environment that a group of people are able to organize this. Maybe you have suggestions to get there, maybe we can discuss this after we have closed GHOP and did a proper evaluation because I indeed agree this is an very good (amazing comes closer) example of how people can get involved!

_________________
Personal blogs can be found on http://JFoobar.org

I would love to help out in giving shape to the general idea but lacking the experience of how the GHOP worked out for all concerned I think I would be jumping the gun as soon as it comes to specifics.

No doubt implementing my suggesiton is much easier said than done. From experience elsewhere I know that setting up a new program requires a good exchange of ideas and then a meeting to give the ideas a clear shape and decide implementation steps.

So I knew posting a new topic would not do it, but I did hope it will start the exchange of ideas. I read somewhere that Joomla has 200k downloads per month, and -without complaining or criticising- I have a feeling that there is a lot of momentum to be gained from those thousands of downloaders that has not been harnassed yet.

Again, I think I can help structuring this and would be happy to do so but I do not want to be presumptious in doing so.

There is nothing like a group, a list, common goals, learning, and community support to ignite some enthusiasm, is there?

It's pretty exciting seeing this community starting to bud up. Joomla! v 1.5 is the soil for that growth.  And, we are seeing little signs of it taking off. As Jenny said, one of the early signs was the formation of the 101 forum area, it was really hopping for awhile there. But, it wasn't quite time.

The next "awakening" is coming. I think our experience with GHOP demonstrated that a team organizing and facilitating specific deliverables as a natural bi-product of learning does help build an enthusiastic army of developers. I completely agree with Wilco. The time commitment is considerable, as are the results.

I think ewel, you are going to be very helpful with the next phase because you can't get it out of your mind, can you? It's been haunting you for awhile; we've even exchanging PMs on it. It's too late, but, the Joomla! community spirit has got you. 

I'm thinking Wilco's has his next victim. Prepare to be assimilated and to grow and learn and be transformed as you become an important part of what's going on.

It's fun and you are going to love it!
Amy

_________________
http://Twitter.com/AmyStephen
http://www.alltogetherasawhole.org/

First of all warm congratulations on the launch of 1.5 stable!

I guess I would be pushing my point too far if I said that should free some hands  Joking aside I think 1.5 is a massive step forwards in user friendliness and no doubt in many other ways, and it seems we all agree that this can and should spark a next groundswell of development.

Thanks Amy for your kind words! I think I was doomed to believe in communities from the moment I was elected to the board of a student organisation back in the days I still lived in the country of origin I share with Wilco. Porting from that experience I could add cultural exchange and mutual understanding to the benefits of an international community - not insignificant aspects in today's world.

Perhaps I can start helping by making a more defined outline as food for thought and discussion, and then this could be compared with the evaluation of GHOP. This may take me a bit of time but it does not seem there is any hurry. I should probably first read and learn how exactly GHOP was organised - is there some particular documentation you would want to point me to or anything you would want me to bear in mind? Is there any particular preferred format?

I think a few things made the GHOP approach work:

• Interest - Joomla! is very popular. We had at least double the number of participants than even the next highest project. It all starts with that - is your project interesting? Does it hold potential to help people solve their problems? I think it's clear that people love Joomla! and are interested in getting more involved with it;
• Openness - anyone can participate and all can observe; the communication, the results, the process, are all done live, out in the open;
• Task List - A list of specific tasks;
• Task Value - This work must hold value for the community. People want to contribute something of value; they want to give something back. It makes them feel good. Anything you invest yourself in, you are part owner, custodian, friend, member, supporter, you belong;
• Task Size - Perfectly apportioned task sizes, cut into bite-sized pieces that take a day, or a week, or a month to complete, no longer;
• Task Variety - A broad range of work, not just code tasks. Some will start in areas of comfort, like translating an existing guide or writing documentation, build confidence and faith in the process, and then take that step into a developer role as they observe others. There is benefit to encouraging well-rounded community members who sees themselves as responsible and able to participate in many areas;
• Access - access to experts and to code and to documentation. People in the know willing to respond to questions and share their knowledge. Documentation and, most importantly, a place to contribute to the documentation pool as learning takes place. Chris is ready for this.
• Attention - We are social creatures. Having someone to talk to, ask questions, someone who can connect people with access to the above, someone who prods a bit when periods of time pass without results, canceling a task and giving it back to the list, all of that reinforces accountability to group which also builds motivation and enthusiasm. My point is the effort has to be championed. If it is ignored, it will die.
• Group - Having the activity "contained" stimulates a community building response. Members begin helping one another, they start to collaborate on how their solutions can work together, they cheer one another one and form friendships. From that group will emerge new participants to give attention. That flow into leadership roles should be visible and promoted and expected.

To be honest, whatever we do will work; whatever we don't do will work. This community is growing and that fire is out of our control. It's really important to get it - we cannot control this and should not try. By doing something organized, we can facilitate some of this interaction, help people make connections, find knowledge, and most importantly, find one another. But, facilitators should enlist for a period of time, then, allow the next set of leaders in, and so on, it's not something someone is in charge of and should try to control or rule or direct.

There are two GHOP students who I believe have excellent community building skill who might also be willing to also help with some of this in a couple of weeks when the contest ends.

Ewel - please continue thinking on this and allow this to motivate you into action. Good stuff!
Amy

_________________
http://Twitter.com/AmyStephen
http://www.alltogetherasawhole.org/

Many thanks Amy, that was a really helpful analysis and precisely what I was after!  One of the key underlying aspects I read into your points is that (unsurprisingly of course) success is in part based on there being something in it for everyone, and in most cases that is a direct benefit. The only group that I am not convinced yet would see an immediate return in kind would be experienced developers who are not already part of the foundation and working groups. That is of concern to me because these are the private and commercial extension developers who could help man the group of mentors. I would expect many of these invest their time based on business considerations and I find it difficult to think of a commercial upside for them (at least none that would not already be covered by GHOP or run into licensing complications!). I have to give this some thought and any ideas you may have are of course more than welcome.

I completely agree with your comments about lack of control, facilitation and continuity.

This would not be a small thing to set up, so the more people get involved the better!

This afternoon I read up about the GHOP and I think I now have a fairly complete image in my mind of how it could work (except the upside for developers) and while the GHOP is drawing to a close I will work on crystalising that into a clear set of suggestions.

If that is required, one need not apply.

_________________
http://Twitter.com/AmyStephen
http://www.alltogetherasawhole.org/

Perhaps I have misunderstood but taking the GHOP as example the students learn and achieve, Joomla and the people driving it gain the involvement of more people and the fruits of the students' efforts, and the Joomla community as a whole benefits as well since everything is in the open. 

So basically I read into Interest, Openess, Access, Attention and Group that these aspects are relevant partly because they hold an attraction to people, a benefit of sorts. I did not mean to refer to a benefit that needs to be monetary of even material, on the contrary actually. I was glad you mentioned and reminded me of Attention, for example, because many not-for-profit organisations would collapse if they did not give people the direct benefit of opportunities for social interaction.

So I hope and think we are on the same page in this respect, and at the moment I am wondering how many developers of commercial extensions are also on that page or could be inspired to turn to that page. In an ideal world they would be inspired to get involved by an opporunity to donate a manageable part of their time to a clear goal, but not knowing them I just don't know if they would.

We are nearly on the same page and I hear your logic, but some things are slightly different for a free software community.

I have found it is best to approach involvement in the community with no strings attached. We need to think carefully about the gifts we give. The big test is this --> can we set our gift down, walk away, never be recognized or reimbursed in any way and not feel taken advantage of? If so, then we should give. Then, it's a contribution that the community can put to service. If we cannot, don't give.

This community can thrive with only freely offered gifts. We do not need to convince anyone to participate with us. Developers are coming and they will continue to come because they are interested in Joomla!, they want to learn, they want to participate and belong, and they want to give something back. Those people will come and those are the only people we need.

Provided members respect the license and observe community guidelines, we should be indifferent to how others earn a living. Those factors do not need to enter a community building discussion because it's none of our business and it is not our responsibility.

One more important principle is to trust the community. We do not need to worry if people are inspired to join us, or not. All we need to do is make it easier for people to participate and get out of their way. People want to belong, they want to contribute, they want to learn, they want what they do to matter. That's universal. So, make it possible to belong, contribution, learn, and do good stuff. Easy! Just takes time, planning, organization, passion.

_________________
http://Twitter.com/AmyStephen
http://www.alltogetherasawhole.org/

Ok, good. Professional cynicism aside, for myself I have always thought giving should be pro bono without any strings attached. Not needing to be concerned about convincing those who see it otherwise will make things that much easier!

Good! Thank you. This is an excellent dialog - I hope you feel the same.

_________________
http://Twitter.com/AmyStephen
http://www.alltogetherasawhole.org/

I do! It is important to get the fundamentals right. One of these is that I am a guest at the party, and this dialog helps me understand the mood - and I am glad to say I am in the same mood

I love your attitude. You are not a guest, though. If you are pitching in and trying to contribute what you have to give, you are a full-fledged member of the community.

I appreciate you taking initiative here and hope you continue.

Amy

_________________
http://Twitter.com/AmyStephen
http://www.alltogetherasawhole.org/

Thanks! I'll aim for having something to ponder ready when the GHOP finishes..

[This topic is not completely the same one that I want to talk on, but it is similar, so I post it here, because I hope that you two (Amy and ewel) have the Notify-Funktion turned on for this.]

The contest is over and I (and I assume other too) would still like to support the comunity, but don't know ecactly how. Because finding tasks is difficult. Others may need help with the developing of their extensions or search for other young people to do the projects they're thinking about.
So I think it would be great to create a kind of workgroup, let's call it J!OUNG Team in this thought experiment. Young Peple like me and other contestants could be moderators of an special forum and there could be a project at Google Code, containing a task list like at the GHOPC. Others could do this tasks or could create new ones/ask mods to do this.For example: They created an extensions and search now for someone who can translate this. This is a little task wich can be done in some hours, but without such a task list it would maybe never been done.
So let's say everybody up to 20 years can join. All two or three months there could be events, similar to the Joomla! Doc Camp or other weekend projects. I don't think that every contestant would join such a project, but maybe a part, let's think of 10 to 20. This ones would learn from each other and could mentor other young ones, who didn't take part in the contest, but are interested. I think young people could work better if they know that the others around them are not much older than they. And maybe a young part of the community would get generated, with young people as mentors for others, and also a fast and good team to do tasks given by the whole community, because the people of the workgroup wouldn't be specialized like the members of the other groups (Translations, Core, ...) but could do combined tasks with some different tasks together.

This is what I'm thinking about and I know that it is not more than an idea, but I would like to hear of you, what you think about this.
(I hope you understand all I've wrote, sorry for my awfull English... )

_________________
My projects:
ModuleMap - http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/mod_googlemap
Wixi Embed Player Module - http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/mod_wixi_embd/

It is nice to see that there are others who think programmes like these could work.

What you describe is not dissimilar from what I had in mind except for a few things, but perhaps one of the differences is quite important.
That difference is expressed in a crucial word: 'young'. Personally I do not see any reason why we should assume that experience or ability is related to age. There are teenagers who could teach people my age quite a bit and I do not think that people of any age should be excluded from the possibility of learning or teaching.
Another difference may be that I would much prefer seeing people come up with their own ideas. I think that task lists are a goof to add on to inspire people and allow others to seek help, but I would not want to block people from coming up with a new idea and doing it.

As such there is no fundamental reason why one programme suggestion should exclude the other, and perhaps there is scope for an all-year round J! academy. GHOPC was sponsered by Google so of course another sponsor would have to be found but with a bit of networking that should not be too difficult.

Still, my preference would be to have one age-less programme that combines the strength of all ages and experience levels, and I am sorry that I have not had time yet to complete my draft documentation of what I had in mind. I will now try to speed that up, and I propose that when I am ready with it you have a look to see if it is a draft programme that would cover what you have in mind. If not we can see how to allow for two programme suggestions that do not bite eachother.
In the mean time I would be happy to use your suggestions in what I am drafting, so feel free to write here or send me a personal message with more suggestions!

Hi Benjamin,

I really like you idea, and love the sprit you put down here. Setting up your own group is easy, if you need guidance from anyone of the core-team, just let us know and we'll take care of it. Seeing this, my first response was: just jump in one of the work groups, but my second thought we could extent the GHOP concept and just create a list with tasks people can take. If the j!outh group is the driving force behind it, we would even be more excited.

I'll take this reply to my fellow coordinators and see if we can work this out quickly into a simple and effective. Would love to get in contact with you, preferable Skype, please add me: wilco.jansen and we'll see if we can get this idea going.

Wilco

_________________
Personal blogs can be found on http://JFoobar.org