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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:24 pm 
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Is there a some kind of rule, how one language file have to be maintained, when new additions or some lines gone deprecated during the version change ?

Nothing personal, and this wont be a next flame, or personal war bu:

Attachments author (Jonathan Cameron) adds his changes to the language file, between the already translated texts, and I (for sure all other translators) have to re-read and translate what is missing, which adds additional time to our free of charge contribution to joomla, double time for nothing.

JAM author (cant get his name atm), adds additions/deprecated lines directly into the mail, and I have to download last translation, to search and add/remove new ones/deprecated lines and to re-read again and translate it, 3 times, removing instead of commenting, adding line by line and translating.

Why there is no rule, everyone module, component, bot or template developer, to use the way of Phoca CZ Development (Jan Pavelka), how he maintain his language files, adding new lines to the end of the file, or Arno (the jDownloads developer), this is the best way one component to be maintained up to date with language files.

From over 20 3rd party translated and maintained translations for Joomla!, only this two guys (thanks for your job Jan and Arno) knows how to work with team.

Keeping and building more messy ways of maintaining language files, will not bring nothing good. Remository, VirtueMart and eXtplorer are good example to this, first touching the language files with not proper (Unicode UTF-8) editor, secondary leaving them without actual languages (not only for Bulgarian).

So dear 3rd party extension developers, there are two ways:
Bad way, yours strange view of maintains language files
and Good one - to learn from Jan Pavelka and Arno.

It's up to u!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:08 pm 
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You've started an interesting discussion there...

I can see the benefits for having some "language style standard",
but I could not find anything about translation standards, especially upgrading translation files...

I could only find some info about "Coding style and standards" regarding the Joomla code:
http://docs.joomla.org/Coding_style_and_standards


A workaround with updated language files:
there are software packages that can easily find differences in text files.
E.g. for Windows: WinMerge (Open Source file compare and merge utility), http://winmerge.org

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:12 am 
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Yeah and File Compare and Sync-ing line by line, is a loosing time. Bcz of the speed during the translations, we (translators) some times (ok, every time) makes a syntax errors, and some have correctors in the team, some don't.

Is this thing read UTF-8 encoded files and GNU Gettext files ?

WinMerge looks nice, but I suggest 3rd party joomla extensions developers, to start using Jan Pavelka way, and better to have up to date language files with they're new releases, otherwise everything will start looks like Remository.

Also extensions.joomla.org must add and language translation section, not only for the core, bcz there is no popularity if there is only one language for exampled component/module/plugin.

But some "wise/smart heads" in Joomla (OpenSource Matters) organization, have to set some rules for this language files, otherwise I'll drop a lot of translations, and will look for cooperation with extension authors which accept Jan Pavelka way of maintain language files.

Translators friendly extensions atm are:

SOBI 2
Phoca (Extensions)
jDownloads
FireBoard
DOCMan

Willing to change they're mind:

JAM
Joo!BB

Rejecting (and already dropped) (speaking for Bulgarian mainly, if some other wanna try to maintain them in this stupid time loosing way, feel free to use current):

Attachments
Remository

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:18 am 
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I can't really see where Joomla! can set rules for translations, as extensions are done by others. Extension developers aren't even obliged to give people easy ways of translating an extension. Even Joomla! 1.0 doesn't have an easy translatable backend.

What can be done, is that somebody can write up a set of guidelines for extension developers how to develop extensions and make it easy for translators to use and update. This page can be put on http://docs.joomla.org, and use as reference.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:22 am 
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What can be done, is that somebody can write up a set of guidelines for extension developers how to develop extensions and make it easy for translators to use and update. This page can be put on http://docs.joomla.org, and use as reference.


Excellent idea and not only as reference, it should be a rule, since the new Amazing, Shiny, Easy to Use MVC is up and ready, all 3rd party extensions have to be in the same way, Easy to Use(Translate and Maintain)....

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:35 pm 
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Well, you can not oblige anyone how to code his extension.
For the extensions using .ini files in Joomla! 1.5 it is easier, because of the Translation Manager.
The problem comes with extensions that don't use ini files (no idea why they do that). There it is hard to track

However a set guidelines is a good idea. Unfortunately the documentation section of Joomla! is poor and mostly hard to navigate.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:38 pm 
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However a set guidelines is a good idea. Unfortunately the documentation section of Joomla! is poor and mostly hard to navigate.


And this have to be used as excuse and never ending story ?
OK, never mind... since everyone can code in his own way, I can (and will suggest to some friends and mates from http://sourceforge.net/projects/gtlt now separated in to different projects, but again for translating open source applications, to drop from maintenance applications with such "ideal" ways of maintains language files...

I'll build next weekend detailed list in English and Bulgarian, for the extensions and they're authors which wish to cooperate and others which will not change from they're own view, just as navigation point for the current and coming up translators.
Quote:
I can't really see where Joomla! can set rules for translations, as extensions are done by others. Extension developers aren't even obliged to give people easy ways of translating an extension.


I can see it, if there is a rule, translators will keep they're work up to date, and Joomla! will gain more populairty (don't tell me that current state is enough), if not set the rule, Anarchy will set everything in "the best way I see it", then the extension like Joomget (will come only in Italian, bcz there is no translators even for English), and Ice Gallery the only one ZOOM fork atm which work on 1.5 without any problems will come only in actual German (bcz there is no English translator too).

And a lot of other examples which can't remember at the moment, which are created in the proper way, with less security bugs then Joomla! 1.5.5, but without proper grammar English. Using "Publisht" instead of Published, mostly used by German developers (at least they try to maintain some kind of English languages), Italians fully reject to maintain English. Some like VirtueMart development team still rejects to ACCEPT UTF-8 for Joomla 1.5.x release. A lot rejects to accept 1.5 as latest stable build (but this is for another topic). VirtueMart language pack is still set to be used with ISO8859-1, CP1251, and old char sets for all other languages (never mind that the current translations, are updated, separated into different files old and unmaintained translations). And how will look Cyrillic (Bulgarian) translation coded into ANSI (CP1251) in UTF-8 environment ? Ulgy picture like this "????? ???? ????!" - This is Cyrllic in CP1251, displayed into UTF-8 environment.

There should be a rule... for the non-English speakers, to maintain always up to date language files, for setting up the additions and changes in the proper time saving way, so and other translations to keep they're work up to date, and not the previous release to be the first and last, it will be disappointing for the Translators at first place, bcz they're work will go to nowhere, secondary bcz users will have no longer actual languages.....

Never mind, this is my point of view....

Thanks for the answers.

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Last edited by ep98 on Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:53 pm 
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Well, the more important is to ask these developers why don't use some standardization?

In my opinion centralization of translations (like the extensions web site) could be done by Joomla! and even maybe with set criteria these to be published there would make the whole story to rule based.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:42 pm 
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Who can ask them to use standardization except Joomla, or anti-advertising or boycott to the authors which rejects to use the new .INI files and the Ian Pavelka way of maintaining the version changes to the language files ?

Any response from the "great" mambo/jambo foundation chamber ? The first question was directed to the language manager in OpenSource That Not Sure Is It Matters OR Not.../Joomla. Users like me can't help me a lot, at least with a nice ideas to search for alternatives....

Whatever... seems like some old ghosts from Mambo are back here....

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:17 pm 
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I'll move this topic to the translations forum, people who do translations might help you with setting a guidelines that can be used.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:19 am 
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Hi Folks,

Indeed a intressting discussion so far.

IMO, to make Extensions to have them translated in as much languages as possible the Idea of writing down some Guidlines is a valid point.

This would also have a nice Side effect within the Forums ;)
As from time to time on our local forum we have questions like:
- Installed extension com_blabla why does it not talk in my langauge

either it's not translated yet, or language files must be installed seperatly, or they are .php files...
Or during installation they went in the wrong directory.

And having such Guidlines would also easy up the translation work.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:44 am 
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Quote:
As from time to time on our local forum we have questions like:
- Installed extension com_blabla why does it not talk in my langauge

either it's not translated yet, or language files must be installed seperatly, or they are .php files...
Or during installation they went in the wrong directory.

And having such Guidlines would also easy up the translation work.


And ? Who can set up such Guidelines ? Me, You or someone else, which is sleepy, very, very sleepy...

Is the whole Joomla! Dev. team is on vacation ?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:54 am 
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For setting up guidelines, you don't need a developer, do you? To have any idea realized, there are two options. You find somebody do implement the idea for you, and agrees with you. Second option is that you and a few others who also do translations a lot, set up those guidelines so they can be put up on the docs website. If the guidelines are there, we might do additional things like mentioning the guidelines to all people who register on Joomlacode, or JED. The point is. A lot of the volunteers that work on Joomla! already have a lot of tasks, and can't just say. Cool idea, it's finished tomorrow. In the end there are more people with good ideas than people with the ability to execute those. I personally have a ton if ideas that could help Joomla! tremendously, but I only have so much time to spend implementing those.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:03 am 
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ep98 wrote:
Who can ask them to use standardization except Joomla, or anti-advertising or boycott to the authors which rejects to use the new .INI files and the Ian Pavelka way of maintaining the version changes to the language files ?


You can find some other talks at:
Can we call native an extension not using/providing ini file - viewtopic.php?t=300874

- Guidlines are ok. You may start a draft so it could become a proposal. But think on a constructive approach, not a legal approach.

- INI files should be a reference but not a rule. Some extensions also create their files to other systems non-joomla, and had to find a common ground!

Some notes from me:

- Joomla has adopted english language as collaborative language: Main sites, JED descriptions listings and code.
But English its not the universal language or the only language of the world!

- An extension with language files its a extra feature for that extension. Extensions should have it, but we will not benefit if we point the extension for the lack of translation.

- If an extension have the main language file in Italian (or Portuguese... my language!) we don't have any right to oblige them to translate it to English so non Italians could also translate. Its similar to english extensions that are not translated to Cantonese or Thai by the author. Users have also to work here, giving help to translate. Will it be easier if there is a master file in english? Yes, but the world isn't a perfect place!

- We all know that an extension that don't use English files will hardly become an hit.. but maybe the author don't need that (only commercial extensions absolutely needs to take care on this!) or have a different development cycle. The first priority can't be the language issues but features and security. And remember that a german module could be a popular module in German!

- Extensions language at a central download site?
# Not inside JED (it would be impossible to manage the JED!)
# On a special directory? Will be difficult not impossible. Will have to find solutions for manage language responsability, versioning, update files, and so on.
# As for now its the local communities and extensions devs that put that files online. I'm sure we need more visibility for those local communities, and there are talks and work in progress here too. Time!

A note: Don't be hard to non english authors, coders, webmasters. Give them the time, the help and try to level with them.
I am a non english people, one of those who had to use Joomla with english backend (and tell clients... that's the only language, sorry) because everybody had postpone the admin language issue for the 1.5 (code features was the priority). And we survive (more than a year) and we had to create completely translated admin packs. Just imagine the time and work we spend translating hard coded english terms in hundreds of files and manage to have them all updated!
As JED editor I reed lots of (angry) complains like: "the site isn't in english, shame on you" (not publishable of course).

Some users find the hard way the "other side of the story" of non English people living at a English centred web world. Please be gentle to that few works not created by English speakers!

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:01 am 
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Quote:
- Joomla has adopted english language as collaborative language: Main sites, JED descriptions listings and code.
But English its not the universal language or the only language of the world!


Is this forums are written and maintained in Urdu ? or some kind of GPL language ?
the 99% of this forums and 100% of the interface is in English.
English is the most used language on this planet, and it IS universal language. With English I can maintain contacts with my mates translator from Ghana, Bangladesh, India, China, Korea, Spain. If Asians can use English as universal language, all others should use English as universal and only one fully maintained up to date, all others translations of English language may be optional, depending on the will and free time of the translators.

Quote:
- INI files should be a reference but not a rule. Some extensions also create their files to other systems non-joomla, and had to find a common ground!


If the INI files are not the rule, then such extensions can't be called native, what about Brampton's Remository is it external/bridged application or what ?

For me is fully Joomla dependent application, but not native in any ways.

Quote:
- An extension with language files its a extra feature for that extension. Extensions should have it, but we will not benefit if we point the extension for the lack of translation.


Huh what about the meaning of Joomla! (what was the translation of that word) ? If the extension not have language files, no matter legacy (php) or native (ini), it can't be used by people which still learn the universal language English. Some people rejects to learn it, some still don't know from where to start. Such Joomla! users will rate this extension as the worst.

Quote:
The first priority can't be the language issues but features and security. And remember that a german module could be a popular module in German!


Huh, security before the understanding ? If the German module have to be popular only in German, what this module did in Extensions.Joomla.ORG which is supposed to be International or English, bcz not use at least Interface translations. And how u will explain the progress last two months of the not native component jDownloads ? Arno at least try to maintain it's English language files up to date, why not and others ?

Modules listed like some information modules which are for Germans and have to be used on German sites, don't have place on International sites, u may build extensions.joomla.de to keep it in German language only and full with extensions created by Germans for Germans, and supposed to be used in German, no it's not Nazi decision, but why I should loose time which modules which not work with our Bulgarian services... German Banks are different then ours, payment ways with this banks are different too, TV guides are different, everything is different, no matter that we are part of the big thingy EU.

Quote:
# As for now its the local communities and extensions devs that put that files online. I'm sure we need more visibility for those local communities, and there are talks and work in progress here too. Time!


If u know Russian, u can get pirated components from some Russian (un)official support sites. Also extensions.joomla.org at this point is a only NOT up to date catalog of some extensions which may work or may not on the visitor installations. AutoEXP 1.3a for example, it's just listed, but is not native even for 1.0.15....


Quote:
A note: Don't be hard to non english authors, coders, webmasters. Give them the time, the help and try to level with them.


I've give them a lot of time, JAM author is a non-English speaker, willing to change maintenance of it's components language files in the proposed way. Attachments author is a English speaker, and rejects to read whatever I'm saying.
So... u have to add one more icon near each application (Joomla Community Friendly) and (Aggressive)

Quote:
I am a non english people, one of those who had to use Joomla with english backend (and tell clients... that's the only language, sorry) because everybody had postpone the admin language issue for the 1.5 (code features was the priority).


I can't get this, Joomla 1.5 is fully translatable, you can simply build your back end language in Elvish

Quote:
Some users find the hard way the "other side of the story" of non English people living at a English centred web world. Please be gentle to that few works not created by English speakers!


I hate to repeat myself, but India, state Gujarati is 55M people (we Bulgarians are 6-7M), Indians know it and use it to communicate with us, Germans old europe nation, they use it no matter how hard is, but since is the only way to get each other, they used it. China, Japan and Korea, no matter how much times bigger then us, they use it too. So since even you use English to get your answers readable, English is the only one Universal language.

Quote:
- Guidlines are ok. You may start a draft so it could become a proposal. But think on a constructive approach, not a legal approach.


Guidelines (better to be Rules)

1. If the component, module, plugin is a Joomla dependent application, and is written for 1.5 of Joomla, have to use INI files for maintains language files
2. (with respect to all other nations) Since we use the universal language English, are 3rd party dependent extensions have to be provided with up to date language files. .PHP for 1.0 if you plan to maintain application for unmaintained core, and .INI for 1.5
3. To add in the end or in the top the new changes to the language files, not to insert/edit/remove within the completed language file. There are two examples for Native and Legacy components.
www.sigsiu.net - SOBI 2, they add the changes of the top on the language files (so excuses like it's not possible are stupid)
www.phoca.cz (non-English developer, with perfectly maintained English language files), Ian Pavelka adds the new languages changes to the end of each language file for each component (so again, such excuses that's no possibility to do that is a lame)
4. To do NOT touch translations, for editing bcz of the char set difference, I may open Japanese language on Vista with Notepad Plus, which is saved in UTF-8 without Byte of Mark, but XP/98 users can't or u will repeat Soeren mistake with all translations for JoomlaExplorer.
5. To maintain good communications at least with the translators, if you're 3rd party joomla dependent extensions don't have popularity, bcz of lack languages, better put in with state Abandonware, and look around for something else to do, instead to loose time with building non-supported (internationally) applications.

Who can add more ?
For me points 2 and 3 are most important, that's why I've start this thread.
Regarding point 5, simply can reject the maintenance of the component as already did it for Attachments, let me see your suggestions for Rules

Quote:
LoCAlicer wrote:
For us, translators the .ini format is much more convenient, because both professional and open source Computer Aided Translation (CAT) tools support it, no manual translation required, because adding the translated strings to a translation memory later can be reused speeding up the future localizations, this way a translator can gain some time what he/she can spend for another translation :)

True, that's why too, should be a Rule.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:40 pm 
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ep98 wrote:
Quote:
I am a non english people, one of those who had to use Joomla with english backend (and tell clients... that's the only language, sorry) because everybody had postpone the admin language issue for the 1.5 (code features was the priority).

I can't get this, Joomla 1.5 is fully translatable, you can simply build your back end language in Elvish

I Was talking about the Joomla 1.0.x (no admin language!).
The point was: If we were patient enough with coders to achieve the 1.5 development state... why shouldn't everione else to be patient with extensions authors that make available extensions only on their languages? Give them time to also achieve great code results and then work with them to create language files. Don't simple start by ban them from JED!!

Quote:
Some users find the hard way the "other side of the story" of non English people living at a English centred web world. Please be gentle to that few works not created by English speakers!

ep98 wrote:
I hate to repeat myself, but India, state Gujarati is 55M people (we Bulgarians are 6-7M), Indians know it and use it to communicate with us, Germans old europe nation, they use it no matter how hard is, but since is the only way to get each other, they used it. China, Japan and Korea, no matter how much times bigger then us, they use it too. So since even you use English to get your answers readable, English is the only one Universal language.


Not some years ago French was that universal language.. so was spanish and Portuguese, latin or greek before. Now its english.
I'm not arguing about it. But don't make the same mistakes that those languages (countries) did by ignoring others!

International JED doesn't simple mean "in international format" but also "available to everybody". The only rule on JED about languages its the description in english, and that just because the JED its moderated and we have to be able to read the descriptions!
Sure that a commercial extension have to think to use english in a support site/forum and language files!

- Why we shouldn't gain nothing having local JED?
Because JED its not only to distribute files to Joomla users. Its important also as a contribute to extensions development.
A bulgarian TV Guide module could be useful to a chinese coder to adapt the code, learn from it, and create its own TVGuide. Then an Australian pick the chinese extension and evolve to their country... soon an USA coder change it again... and the original bulgarian coder pick some inovations that was produced by others and introduce it at its own module.
Sure .. all GPL stuff!
Do you believe any of these could happen if that bulgarian module was only published in a bulgarian JED?
And it would be more effective to create the need of translating extensions, to use guidelines.. if you se others doing it also in an international environment!

And now just to calm down, a moment of fun: to publish or not to publish?
- User download extension file and start using it with english and several others languages available.
- Extension its only available in Italian (italians want it published at JED... you don't!).
A guy from China understand italian enough to translate it to Mandarin. People from China (and some countries nearby) now also want that extension published at JED (they don't understand italian and they are not all from china... so they need it on an international JED. You still don't because you also don't know mandarin or any other Sino-Tibetan language!.
Users form Portugal and Spain also start to translate the extension from italian to portuguese and spanish... and soon more than a half of the world population can use that extension.
Can it be publishable at JED? Not from your point of view, just because the extension don't have a "universal" english file!

Can you see the problem here? :pop

YES to guidelines, NO to rules!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:04 am 
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horus_68 wrote:
YES to guidelines, NO to rules!

I agree!

This discussion on this interesting subject is getting longer and longer.... :)
It's a good to discuss and read about all different points of view,
but I would like to get some more concrete results from this discussion.

Tonie wrote:
What can be done, is that somebody can write up a set of guidelines for extension developers how to develop extensions and make it easy for translators to use and update. This page can be put on http://docs.joomla.org, and use as reference.

Good idea!

Therefore I wrote the following draft: Language Guidelines for 3rd Party Extensions
http://docs.joomla.org/Language_Guideli ... Extensions

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:54 am 
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This is indeed a very interesting and important discussion.
Some valuable input been shared, which is great.
pe7er wrote:
Tonie wrote:
What can be done, is that somebody can write up a set of guidelines for extension developers how to develop extensions and make it easy for translators to use and update. This page can be put on http://docs.joomla.org, and use as reference.

Good idea!

Therefore I wrote the following draft: Language Guidelines for 3rd Party Extensions
http://docs.joomla.org/Language_Guideli ... Extensions

Thumbs up for taking this a step further. Just excellent to get it in writing. Thanks Peter ;)

This hopefully can inspire other contributors to share their knowledge too.
Good work.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:54 am 
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pe7er wrote:
Therefore I wrote the following draft: Language Guidelines for 3rd Party Extensions
http://docs.joomla.org/Language_Guideli ... Extensions


Is this related to the developers? It appears to be more related to the translators or I don't get it.

It is interesting to follow the thread, unfortunately it doesn't appears to be very productive, where each side is pretty much right.

ep98 is right that some people just don't care and it is disputable if such developers should be tolerated. Let's face it ... maybe removing the extension from JED is to much, but at the same moment putting language unfriendly extensions as "editors pick" is not fair.

From the other side, pe7er is right that guidelines are better than rules, but it appears that many developers doesn't care about these guidelines.

So the question is, if it correct to have such behavior:
1. Random choice of the latest "Editor's picks" - sh404SEF (nothing against the extension, it was just the second I checked and matches really well to the example) - http://extensions.joomla.org/component/ ... Itemid,35/
2. It appears that the JED editors tolerate it.
3. It appears that they state the extension has "language(s)" and based on the rules:
Quote:
All extensions must be installable on the Joomla! platform. The only exception to this rule are the applications in the 'Tools' category. This contains tools for creating and maintaining websites. They are not meant to be installed or change core files in Joomla!.

There should be installable language packages for this extension (for its 1.5 native version). But there are none. The extension even doesn't use ini files (that are installable).

The conclusion from this example is that in theory this extension has fake data in its description in JED.
In fact, it means that the JED editors promote the non-compliance with ini files.

I tried to translate the latest version of VirtueMart and it is a nightmare, absolute waste of time, because of poor organization of the structure. And this is again an editor pick.

Maybe we mix too much JED with the translations structure, but it appears that (as linked above) the topic is if an extension is in fact native if it doesn't uses ini files. And now ep98 opens the topic, if it uses ini files (or whatever else), should there be a version standardization of the files?!?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:07 am 
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khan-kardam wrote:
pe7er wrote:
Therefore I wrote the following draft: Language Guidelines for 3rd Party Extensions
http://docs.joomla.org/Language_Guideli ... Extensions


Is this related to the developers? It appears to be more related to the translators or I don't get it.


Related with devs: they need to code with translations in mind

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:04 am 
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horus_68 wrote:
khan-kardam wrote:
pe7er wrote:
Therefore I wrote the following draft: Language Guidelines for 3rd Party Extensions
http://docs.joomla.org/Language_Guideli ... Extensions


Is this related to the developers? It appears to be more related to the translators or I don't get it.


Related with devs: they need to code with translations in mind

Exactly! Maybe I (or someone else) should edit that wiki article to make that more clear....

khan-kardam wrote:
From the other side, pe7er is right that guidelines are better than rules, but it appears that many developers doesn't care about these guidelines.

Sorry, but how can someone follow guidelines if they are not there or not generally known? All those extensions were made prior to the publication of Language Guidelines for 3rd Party Extensions on 31 August 2008. :)

khan-kardam wrote:
There should be installable language packages for this extension (for its 1.5 native version). But there are none. The extension even doesn't use ini files (that are installable).

The purpose of the guidelines is not to convince developers to include multiple installable language packages for their extension. But to write their code with translation in mind, include at least an English .ini language file (because most people can read that language). Other language files can be written by other people, on basis of that English .ini file. And it those other people share their language file to the developer, they can distribute it on their site.

khan-kardam wrote:
The conclusion from this example is that in theory this extension has fake data in its description in JED.
In fact, it means that the JED editors promote the non-compliance with ini files.

I understand your point! I am not involved in JED, but I can imagine why some extensions might become editors pick, while they don't follow language translation principles mentioned in the guidelines: If some extension is the best (or its only) in its category but it lacks language support, then I myself might also choose that extension.

Again, the guidelines are not meant as rules.
Extensions grow "organically", and so does the collection of extensions at the JED.
If you find some very useful 1.5 native extension that lacks language support, contact the developers and point them to the guidelines. Maybe they were not aware of language issues with their extension. I can image that English developers are less aware of language issues then non-native English developers (like me, hence the Dutch example in the guide ;) ).

BTW: I also hope that the Language Guidelines for 3rd Party Extensions Wiki doc will grow "organically" on basis of our insight on this matter.... http://docs.joomla.org/Language_Guideli ... Extensions

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:22 am 
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Hmmmm, looks like I talk to a stones, nothing is changed....
Quote:
Again, the guidelines are not meant as rules.
Extensions grow "organically", and so does the collection of extensions at the JED.


Organically, I have to ask another question. Does anyone of your KNOWS what the hell means "JOOMLA!" ?
Till when extensions like JCalcPro will be titled as GPL, this is not GPL !
Till when JED will set title Editor's pick to applications, like Virtue Mart, which first brakes the compatibility of Joomla 1.5 itself and VM, first use fully UTF-8 Encoded files, second, use and SET everything else then UTF-8. Local forums are full with questions, about this differences.
Till when applications with hard coded language strings into the code, will be tolerated as Multilingual.
Till when this forums will mind me as the Mambo forums, not so long time ago

"Guys and Girls, Ladies and Gentle mans, let's discuss, and discuss, and discuss, and discuss and probably after tons of repeating discussion, the answer will fall from sky, or new/old JEDI master will join us with solution"

The guidelines are set, and what if the developer of the exampled 3rd party application, even with commercial license don't care about your guidelines ?
JED(i)'s will set it as Editor Choice (Mosets.com), first is far away from legacy, secondary the language files and the hard coded strings within mosets extensions, make it Worst Choice. What about JoomlaExplorer and NinjaExplorer.

JoomlaExplorer was first, right. But now first is not compatible with anything, secondary there is no translation within this component which work without any problems, third it fails when u try to install it on joomla which is installed in sub folder of the root installation, the fork Ninja Explorer just works, but the pick was wrong for long time, this thing smells.... and now eXTPlorer is the next JED selection, why not Quix Explorer ? Things really got smells.

Is this thing Extplorer is native ?
Starting with JM first post, such applications are not native. They can't be called native, and can't be titled with Editor's Choice.

Thanks for sending me into the sands, speaking to myself....

If you don't know what was the meaning of Joomla, search for it in the wiki, guides and so on...
(tons of spam, and from this thread can be taken only few lines of useful information)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:52 am 
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ep98, you really seem like you have an axe to grind.

I'd be happy to try to answer your questions, but from your post I find it hard to even isolate what you want?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:16 am 
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It should not be a big thing to add an extra tag for the listings, as there is for 1.5 Native, 1.5 Legacy or 1.0 Native

Like 1.5 Language handling, 1.0 Language handling, Hardcoded Language

Next to this choice you add a help icon, pointing to information like t.ex http://docs.joomla.org/Language_Guideli ... Extensions

That would be an excellent start on solving this issue, and educate the developers. ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:08 am 
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brad wrote:
I'd be happy to try to answer your questions, but from your post I find it hard to even isolate what you want?

See Brad, at least one understand me, if u read the whole topic, not only last post, u'll see, like Rued :)

rued wrote:
It should not be a big thing to add an extra tag for the listings, as there is for 1.5 Native, 1.5 Legacy or 1.0 Native

Like 1.5 Language handling, 1.0 Language handling, Hardcoded Language

Next to this choice you add a help icon, pointing to information like t.ex http://docs.joomla.org/Language_Guideli ... Extensions

That would be an excellent start on solving this issue, and educate the developers. ;)


That's a good start, thanks for the help and understanding rued

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:18 am 
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rued is great, he can help your out as he is one of the contributors to Joomla.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:34 am 
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Hi EP98,

Have you seen the following blog and specially the second half ;)
http://community.joomla.org/contributor ... -wave.html

Please note that several Editors Picks were choosen before the 1.5 was released. However, we don't look right now on the language support part. We believe on voluntariness and give information and guidelines to the developers how they should add language support using .ini files and this way educate the developers and increase the number of language support extensions.

GPL extensions can be non-commercial or commercial. There isn't any contradiction.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:26 am 
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Hi Lorenzo,

what about using my proposal on the extension directory?

That would solve a lot of "problems" for the user searching for a multilingual extension, and also make the developers of the extensions aware of this new language handling.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:42 pm 
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Yeah, nice suggestion, I'm with both hands for that one :)
So ?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:04 pm 
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To add new parameters to each JED listing could be a possibility.
there are also other proposals to have more icons to address different issues.
Its never an easy change.
Please remember the time consuming on validation of the info at JED and to resolve reports that would popup.
And any future changes will take too long to have real impact: the authors take too long to update their extensions... see the "commercial" and "license" implementation still runnig after many months.


keep the ideas coming, so after we finish the actual change, we may start another aimed to languages

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