The Joomla! Forum ™

I am seeking Joomla! folks interested in starting up a new user group for those of us in Illinois. Yes, there is already a very good Chicago Joomla! group, JoomlaChicago, but the organization I have in mind will differ from it in several significant ways:

• Member-driven, i.e. decision-making will be by users and user representatives with elected officers and a board, rather than being "owned" by a single individual with unilateral authority.
• Not specifically focused on downtown Chicago, but with emphasis on the suburbs and the rest of the state as well. Eventual goal is to encourage chapters in various areas
  
• Non-profit status.
• Beyond educational programming, a core goal will be to act as a point of contact for persons looking to hire or contract with Joomla pros and those seeking such positions.

Interested persons should PM me here with their contact information and/or post a reply to this message. If there is sufficient interest, I will make arrangement for a kickoff/planning meeting in the near future, most likely somewhere in the northwest suburbs.

Hi

Could be interested. I live in East Central Illinois close to Terre Haute.

_________________
The 5Ps - Pior Planning Prevents Poor Performance

drhansenjr,

Thank you for your interest in creating a JUG in Chicago. Currently there is no Registered JUG in Chicago, http://community.joomla.org/user-groups.html.

What I suggest is that you create a Google Group mailing list (or other) and invite those to sign up and then hopefully you'll have enough interest to formally register as a JUG. For more information, please check out...http://community.joomla.org/user-groups ... ation.html.

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Michelle Bisson, POPcliQ, http://www.popcliq.com
Joomla / OSM Trademarks Team Member

If you wish to use the name Joomla in your group's mailing list address, domain name or group name, you need to apply for a licence as well as apply to be a Registered JUG.

Please read:
http://www.opensourcematters.org/content/view/101/75/
http://www.opensourcematters.org/content/view/99/70/

Thanks!

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Michelle Bisson, POPcliQ, http://www.popcliq.com
Joomla / OSM Trademarks Team Member

The group I am envisioning will be deliberately be a totally independent entity neither sanctioned by nor subject to the control of (though with full intention of maintaining good relations with) any other party such as OSM. It will not be an "approved" JUG formally affiliated with, just a user group fully focused on Joomla. If it is the case that the inclusion of the word "Joomla" in the legal or domain name is legally problematic, we'd select them with those constraints in mind.

drhansenjr,
Thanks for explaining your intentions of your group to not register.

We do not force any group to register although we highly encourage it as Registered JUGs can promote their group and activities on our Community site, JUG calendar and JUG Forum and are granted a licence to call themselves a Joomla! User Group.

I hope that you reconsider to register your group. All Registered Joomla! User groups are independent organizations managing their organization themselves.

As you understand, whether a group is Registered or not, all groups still have to follow all of Joomla's trademarks, logos, domain name, licences etc...

I am sorry to say that you will will not be able to promote your group here on this forum.

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Michelle Bisson, POPcliQ, http://www.popcliq.com
Joomla / OSM Trademarks Team Member

I am just concerned about some of the unnecessarily and, it seems arbitrarily, restrictive aspects of the process. A verbally awkward specific format name of the group? A requirement that OSM bless all domain names that happen to contain the letter sequence "j-o-o-m-l-a"? This kind of thing sets off all kinds of alarms for me and makes me wary of setting anything up formally with OSM. As much as I'd like the group I'm putting together to be recognized as an official JUG, it just isn't worth the headaches, and I suspect I'm not the only who's put off by them. If OSM wants to foster the creation of JUGs, its policies need to be less restrictive and more flexible. The kinds of constraints I see out there now go far beyond those needed for protecting a brand. OSM is cutting off its nose to spite its face.

I am sorry to hear that filling out a simple form and following established copyright laws in your country is too much for you.

The OSM policies in this regard are hardly restrictive at all. Perhaps you've been given misinformation. I for one am very grateful that OSM allows me to use the name Joomla on a website I operate.

All the best with your group though.

_________________
Brad Baker - Follow me on Google+
http://www.rochen.com - Joomla! Hosting, the correct way.
http://www.joomlatutorials.com <-- Joomla Help & Tutorials
^Now with Joomla 2.5 and Joomla 3.0 Tutorials

WHAT? Have you even read the OSM? All you need to do is to fill out a simple form...... HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

_________________
Bill Banks
Full service host for Joomla!
http://www.ourweb.net/joomla.html

drhansenjr,

Thanks for sharing your concerns. I am sorry that you are not interested in your group being a Registered JUG.

If you change your mind, please contact me as I am sure that there are a lot of Joomla! Users in Illinois that would love to be part of a registered Joomla! User Group Illinois once it formally starts.

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Michelle Bisson, POPcliQ, http://www.popcliq.com
Joomla / OSM Trademarks Team Member

@drhansenjr

Thanks for you views and good luck with your group.

This has turned into a not very productive thread and I'm not sure what is motivating it. We don't force anyone to use the Joomla name, we just have a reasonable and unusually generous set of rules (look at the policies of other projects if you don't believe me). We're happy to accommodate Joomla Fans and groups who are willing to live by them. They were written to protect the reputation and good will of the project as well as to protect the project's trademarks.

JUGS are independent groups simply registered, not affiliated with or in any way controlled by OSM or the Joomla Project.

_________________
So we must fix our vision not merely on the negative expulsion of war, but upon the positive affirmation of peace. MLK 1964.
http://officialjoomlabook.com Get it at http://www.joomla.org/joomla-press-official-books.html Buy a book, support Joomla!.

Bill -

If you read my message carefully in the context of the forgoing messages you might have a better grasp of my concerns. Context matters. Comprehension skills are critical. Sloppy, inattentive reading adds little to one's credibility. I might suggest that you employ such as you presently possess before responding. Also please see my comments to Brad's message that will appear shortly.

Brad:

>> I am sorry to hear that filling out a simple form and following established copyright laws in your country is too much for you.

Sarcasm serves no purpose here. Let's please address the substance of the issues here, and do so like grown-ups, OK?

>> ...following established copyright laws in your country ...

If there is an issue here it is one of trademark, not copyright. I think, though, that the claim that simple reference to, or the respectful, good-faith businesslike use of a portion of the name of a software product in a domain name or organization name violates a trademark is reaching a bit, to say the least.

>> ...filling out a simple form ...

I think it would help all concerned for you to reread my comments more carefully. I made and have no objection to filling out a form. I am just unwilling to name the organization I have in mind to conform to an arbitrary, silly, syntactically awkward and totally needless naming pattern requirement. The only justification I can see OSM coming up with for such a thing is "Maybe we can get away with it and people will be too cowed to object."

>> The OSM policies in this regard are hardly restrictive at all. Perhaps you've been given misinformation.

I responded to the very specific items Michelle pointed me toward. If those items on at these links she provided...

http://www.opensourcematters.org/content/view/101/75/
http://www.opensourcematters.org/content/view/99/70/

... do not represent the position of OSM, you should address their respective authors.

Frankly these are so hyperbureaucratic they as to be comical. Quote:

Sounds to me like someone in OSM-land has way too much time on his/her hands. The thing speaks for itself.

The (current proposed working) name of the group I am in the process of forming is "Joomlai: The Independent Joomla User Groups of Illinois" and will appear at http://www.joomlai.org (currently a down-for-maintenance stub). Note that I am not saying this might be the name subject to the whims of OSM. It is the current name of the group. I am not coming hat-in-hand to OSM to beg its indulgence in being allowed to adopt it. The name does not adhere to the OSM's naming criteria, and a board and membership to be formed for Joomlai will consider and subsequently approve or rejected it once we're at that stage of our life cycle, whether OSM is on board or not. If OSM can somehow contort its priorities and sense of reality to find such a name to be so egregiously damaging to its brand identity that it wants to make an issue of it, well, we'll just have to have that conversation when its time comes.

Let's get our priorities straight, people!

http://www.joomlai.org
Send comments to [url]joomlai@joomlai.org[/url].

Dan Hansen
joomlai <<at>> joomlai.org
Organizer and Interim Director
Joomlai: The Independent Joomla User Groups of Illinois

mcsmom -

My objections are to the requirements for a specific naming format, to the assertion of an alleged right by OSM to pass judgment on domain names, and fanned by the inflammatory tone, ill-informed notions of copyright vs trademark/brand identity rights, and generally careless reading of my points by "Brad". See the remarks just posted.

I disagree that it is an unproductive thread. The issues with my own specific group aside, those issues in the broader sense are non-trivial. I yielded to my own tendencies toward a certain gleeful (yet serious) obstreperousness to make a point. The constraints on group naming and domain name approval are silly, bureaucratic, pointless and counterproductive, and OSM should abandon them forthwith. They invite mockery. They do not support Joomla's future growth; they stand in its way.

'Nuff said.

Thanks for sharing your personal opinion with us. There are many others who do not feel this way. As I stated above, I wonder who is feeding you this information about the Core Team wanting to hold Joomla back and not encourage growth.

One of the major reasons for the growth of Joomla has been the guidance of OSM, as well as the advice from the SFLC, who happen to know their stuff when it comes to open source, and open source projects. You may wish to research some of this before you imply that these policies have been implemented without any thought.

All the best with your group. Can we close this thread now?

_________________
Brad Baker - Follow me on Google+
http://www.rochen.com - Joomla! Hosting, the correct way.
http://www.joomlatutorials.com <-- Joomla Help & Tutorials
^Now with Joomla 2.5 and Joomla 3.0 Tutorials

Ain't nobody feedin' me nothin'. What I was commenting on was the content of the two links Michelle posted -- on their face value.

I am not making any sort of blanket condemnation of OSM. Quite the contrary. I am taking issue with only these two specific implementation issues.

I've seen nothing on the SFLC site that would lead to a suggestion that user group names be required to be in some odd restricted format. If the language of the OSM policy was a suggestion and not a requirement I wouldn't give a toot. But the "Joomla! User xxxx yyyy. Xxxx" pattern is presented as an absolute requirement. I just cannot imagine what dog-wagging-tail logic led to such a thing or what possible catastrophe might befall Joomla! brand integrity were the requirement not there.

At least the SFLC seems to grasp the distinction between trademark and copyright issues, the latter having no bearing on this discussion.

If your attitude is about the mistake I made in my word choice, I'm sorry.. you caught me out.

The Joomla logo is copyright and your Joomla Usergroup application includes an agreement from you that you will abide by this copyright.

If you have another issue with OSM's right to enforce their trademark and grant people a license to use it provide they do x, y, z, perhaps you should consult with a lawyer yourself, rather than seek legal advice, and attempt to give it in a public forum.

/me goes off to find the dog.

PS I hope you actually have a license to drive your car.

_________________
Brad Baker - Follow me on Google+
http://www.rochen.com - Joomla! Hosting, the correct way.
http://www.joomlatutorials.com <-- Joomla Help & Tutorials
^Now with Joomla 2.5 and Joomla 3.0 Tutorials

Truth is, we could have just maintained the former policy of absolutely no use of the Joomla name by local groups. It would certainly have saved me a lot of time and energy to do that. Instead we spent close to a year in intensive consultation with users from around the world that resulted in this policy. This policy is very similar but more flexible than the policies of other projects.

Similarly, we could have a policy like most other projects and not allow any domain name use that includes our name. It would be much simpler. But we feel that our community is different than other projects' and we want to allow name use albeit in a way that protects our trademark and the reputation of the project and its community.

At close to 500,000 downloads a month, I'm pretty sure that enforcing some simple guidelines to protect our trademark is not going to harm the growth of Joomla. I think that what would harm the growth of our project is losing control of our trademark and creating confusion between the Joomla project and the numerous sites, organizations and businesses that we allow to use the Joomla name.

As Brad points out, a public forum is not the place to seek legal advice nor is it a place where legal advice will be given. However, if you are unhappy with our rules, you can do what others have done and simply name your group without the word Joomla. Simple, easy, no problem. Others who don't like our policies have done that, and I'm sure more will in the future. Totally your choice.

Best of luck with your group.

_________________
So we must fix our vision not merely on the negative expulsion of war, but upon the positive affirmation of peace. MLK 1964.
http://officialjoomlabook.com Get it at http://www.joomla.org/joomla-press-official-books.html Buy a book, support Joomla!.

Yes, and you ended up with "Joomla! User Xxxx Yyyy". I am still struggling to understand how the heck this protects the Joomla! brand. I am not questioning the overall JUG registration/approval process nor OSM's right to adopt a naming requirement. I am just calling attention to the pointlessness of a rigid naming requirement. Claiming that you could have been even more restrictive than you were does not make the policy that was adopted any more effective.

I agree completely. And the "Joomla! User Xxxx Yyyy" rule protects the integrity of the trademark how? Why not just say that group names must include a geographic identification and not imply endorsement or sponsorship, create confusion or deceive (http://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2008/foss-primer.html#x1-660005.4.2) -- then deal with the rare exceptions that are problematic on a case-by-case basis? Why not make the naming pattern a suggestion rather than an absolute?
Look -- let's cut through the nonsense. As I said earlier, the group I am creating is (currently) named JoomlaI: The Independent Joomla! User Groups of Illinois and will have its web presence at http://www.joomlai.org. The site will contain prominent language to make it clear that it is not formally affiliated with OSM/joomla.org as well as other wording to avoid even the remotest appearance of encroachment on Joomla's brand integrity or suggestion that OSM supports or endorses JoomlaI. If and when I and others involved see an indication that there is enough interest in JoomlaI to proceed, I/we may return to request its formal recognition as a JUG with a waiver of the naming rule. I'll probably need to accompany that with another forum post since there is no provision in the registration form for comments or requests for such case-by-case consideration (hint, hint!).
I know you must find this hard to believe, but I truly believe in what you all are doing. This isn't personal. I also believe, though, that blindly accepting pointless rules does the process a disservice. Challenges to such rules are only that: challenges to the rules, not attacks on the people who formulated them.
Enough. I've made my points, and it's time to move on. Smile. Joomla! is a beautiful thing.

I'm sorry, you are proposing to aggressively violate our trademark. I am closing this thread.

All further discussion will be in writing.

_________________
So we must fix our vision not merely on the negative expulsion of war, but upon the positive affirmation of peace. MLK 1964.
http://officialjoomlabook.com Get it at http://www.joomla.org/joomla-press-official-books.html Buy a book, support Joomla!.