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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:07 am 
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Well a few core components need changes to work without mootools in the front end, for example click ratings and form verification in the contacts component. I haven't tried the polls yet.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:51 pm 
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yeah, the problem is that they're so in the core that I hope to see some changes in 1.6 core now :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :'(

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:17 pm 
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I am also having a problem being able to use the "add to cart" buttons on a clients website (kidstoymarket.com) only in IE, the mootools.js creates a ACCESS IS DENIED error in IE8. Although it is needed for the rokslideshow to display properly as well, so removing mootools for guests or front-end changes the site look and layout. I am unsure how to approach this problem so that way the buttons work correctly and the rokslideshow and any other components that use mootools can work properly too.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:17 pm 
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Hi there

I understand the kind of problem. The only thing I can suggest is joining the 1.6 Joomla development mailing list on Google groups. There are some very expert Mootools developers there, who were in fact a little peeved when I asked for an option to disable Mootools on some pages. I didn't intend to slight their work, but there are rather evangelical that Mootools should replace everything else, and as such, should be very willing to help resolve your problems.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:30 pm 
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Do you possibly have a link ? I rather like Mootools but just dislike this problem I would rather not slight there work because it's important we have people working on making the internet experience better and more enjoyable.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:55 am 
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http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:42 am 
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Hi,
Quote:
I am also having a problem being able to use the "add to cart" buttons on a clients website (kidstoymarket.com) only in IE, the mootools.js creates a ACCESS IS DENIED error in IE8


A little method to track your pb.
- install Firebug extension on Firefox
- when one clicks on "add to cart" button, check the error found by Firebug :
Quote:
access to restricted uri denied code 1012

- a googling of this expression gives some hints to the pb
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=access+t ... 9c7dJEyhSI

Maybe here ?
http://groups.google.com/group/mootools ... 9981f2c509

Just remember that J!1.5 (and VirtueMart per se) still uses Mootools 1.11
Also, maybe its a pb already covered in VirtueMart forum.

Hope it helps.

PS / I'd add this IE8 ressource for debugging :
Discovering Internet Explorer Developer Tools
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd565628(VS.85).aspx

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:30 pm 
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I'm talking about this mootools option trouble with my friends and we've seen that in the joomla 1.6 alpha there isn't NO solution for that one!

I know that YOU have to choise the right solution for avoiding to HAVE NO control about mootool system but WE need that Joomla has / deserves a solution... what solution? It doesn't matter but please a solution!

In our forum there were a lot of ideas and solutions... if possible please post your doubts... the community could post their ideas. It's important to share what doing and the possible future solution. We know that 1.6 version isn't a smooth step from 1.5 versions and so it's now the best time for starting a mootools solution!

thanx guys, anyway, for yr great hard work, joomla is my "the best"!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:51 pm 
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I joined the 1.6 developers forum and had a long and unsuccessful debate with those who had already decided to make mootools a requirement for 1.6. I tried to persuade them it should be a voluntary option rather than requiring downloads of up to 2 minutes on a 56K modem before the page would display. The developers who had volunteered to work on the solution weren't interested in understsanding an alternative point of view and insisted Joomla adopt the same solution they already had at Google. I offered to work on an alternative with any other developers who thought Joomla should not require any propietary libraries (Google controls Mootools also) but no one else was wiling to put any effort into a more open solution, so sadly I moved on.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:48 pm 
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Here's a solution one more time - toss this into your template and Mootools will *not* load:
Quote:
// Remove Mootools
$removeMootools = $this->getHeadData();
$removeMootools['scripts'] = array();
$this->setHeadData($removeMootools);


Now, that solution has been offered in this thread several times. I offered it in the Dev List. Could either of you please explain why it is so difficult to copy and paste that code into the top of your Template index.php file?

Maybe it's not ideal. Fine. There *are* also Extensions that will accomplish the same. Is installing an Extension unreasonable?

Like it, or not, Joomla! selected Mootools to use as a Javascript Frameworks. There are sometimes conflicts running multiple Javascript Frameworks on the same page. Settling on a Framework can reduce those conflicts for end users -- if all third party developers stick to the same library. That's the reason we have Mootools.

I am using jQuery in some of my Extensions. I make certain to load jQuery so that it does not cause conflict for Mootools. I know how to turn it off and I don't see this as a showstopper - or even a toe stubber. Let's learn to adapt and focus on those things that really matter. This doesn't.

If you think I'm wrong - please explain to me what I'm not understanding.

Thanks.
Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:03 am 
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emeyer wrote:
I joined the 1.6 developers forum and had a long and unsuccessful debate with those who had already decided to make mootools a requirement for 1.6. I tried to persuade them it should be a voluntary option rather than requiring downloads of up to 2 minutes on a 56K modem before the page would display. The developers who had volunteered to work on the solution weren't interested in understsanding an alternative point of view and insisted Joomla adopt the same solution they already had at Google. I offered to work on an alternative with any other developers who thought Joomla should not require any propietary libraries (Google controls Mootools also) but no one else was wiling to put any effort into a more open solution, so sadly I moved on.


Google does not control Mootools. And, Joomla! does not have any proprietary libraries in core.

I was also in that discussion, although I would not characterize it as a debate. I shared my interest in using jQuery, heard others describe their interests in frameworks, and listened to the developers explain reasons for selecting Mootools and the challenges end users face with multiple frameworks. I try not to guess what people's motives or intentions are, but I certainly did not sense a lack of interest in understanding one another. I felt it was a helpful and enlightening discussion.

Unfortunately, in situations like this, everyone's choice isn't going to be the "default." But, that doesn't mean anyone *has* to use Mootools or that Mootools *has* to load on our instance of Joomla!. It simply means it's available in core - and recommended, for obvious reasons, by Joomla! core developers for third party developers to use when building extensions.

Hope that helps clarify what I think must be unfortunate misunderstandings of that discussion.

Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:50 am 
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Thank you for chipping in, Amy. If you or anyone else is interested in making a UI option to seleectively enable MooTools on different pages by including it as an optional module, rather than incorporating it directly into the core, I'd be glad to continue the discussion. Otherwise there's not really any point in further discussion, debate, talk, or whatever you need to call it, on the topic.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:28 pm 
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Emeyer -

On the contrary, it appears further discussion might be helpful because there still does not appear to be an understanding of the complexity of this matter. The suggestion to "add a UI button to turn Mootools off." would be irresponsible. It would cause problems for users. I really want you to understand this - because I am confident when you do, it will make sense to you why we are here, and how this is resolving in the industry, and that you do have options (whether you use Joomla!, or WP, or Drupal, etc.) to offer a thin client approach.

Patience with my explanation, please.

Mootools comes with Joomla!. It is not developed as an option, it is crafted as a core feature *expected* to be on. The core code base relies on Mootools. Turning it off will cause problems. It would be analogous to adding a feature that allows you to turn off the router. While it is indeed possible to disable the router functions from running, the Web site would no longer work. Think in those terms since that is the reality of the matter.

OK, so, that begs the question - why did the developers include Mootools - or any Javascript Framework in core?

The reason the developers selected a Javascript Framework is because it is easier on end users when all third party developers use the same framework as they are crafting solutions.

Why do I say that? Well, at this time, and especially when the decision was made to include Mootools, JS Frameworks are (were) notorious for not working well together. It's not easy for those less technical to resolve issues of framework conflicts. For that reason, the developers decided to protect end users and reviewed and selected a framework, integrating it with Joomla!.

Bear in mind an important second factor. The core developers would also like to offer JS enabled functions in the CMS. Thus far, core functions are largely restricted to the Administrator (tabs and sliders are examples of this capability. There is also a small amount of Mootools-enabled Ajax in the Installation process when the "Install Sample Data" option is selected.) There is, at this time, only one JS feature in the Frontend, and that is the "captions" option. So, in order to include JS functions in core, the core must have a JS framework.

I don't think *any* widely used CMS comes without some core JS framework. WordPress and Drupal come with jQuery. Drupal 7 will have jQuery UI, too. It appears WordPress is also heading in that direction. So, this is not unusual for a CMS to have a JS framework hardwired in it's core. JS functionality is expected today. In order to provide that capability, you must have JS available. No way around it.

In 1.6, we will enjoy a new Comments Extension which is currently a commercial product offered by JXtended that they are donating to the community. Those most knowledgeable about technology features will agree that Ajax is an important part of new technology. The Comments Extension will sport Ajax-enabled response and rating elements.

However, do not fear. If you do not wish to use the JS elements, you will not be required. Simply use the three lines of code I shared in your Template - or install an extension that turns the JS off - or - obtain a Template that does this for you. The comments feature will continue to work without the advanced (and cool) capabilities.

Also, be encouraged to know that frameworks such as jQuery and now, in the latest release of Mootools that is already in the 1.6 base, ability to prevent framework conflicts is part of the JS framework. So, we should see flexibility in the coming years when dealing with this problem. Also, it is getting to be a commonly accepted development practice to build JS and Ajax functionality as an "add on" to the code base. That means well developed code will continue to function even when the client's JS option has been deactivated. So, again, this problem is sorting in the industry and will likely be a non-issue when we get to 1.7, or 1.8, at the latest.

In sum, Mootools is part of Joomla!. It is intended to be hardwired into the code base. This decision is based on two important factors: setting precedence for third party developers to use the same framework in order to eliminate conflicts in frameworks for end users and 2) to provide JS capabilities for the core developers to use within the core Joomla! source. Until there are other ways to accomplish those two goals, Mootools will be part of the core.

Having said that, we can enjoy the full benefits the GPL offers and turn it off if we choose. The methods for doing so include adding those three lines of code to our templates or installing an extension for that purpose. Once we do so, we must also be able to manage dealing with functions that no longer work due to the fact we disabled Mootools.

Further, the future looks bright as the industry as a whole is grappling with these problems and the JS Framework folks and developers are all working hard to ensure frameworks can peacefully co-exist - and applications continue to function - when the JS is turned off.

Heading there. Just not there yet. But, we will get there, that's a guarantee.

Hope that clarifies the situation further.

Thanks!
Amy :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:40 pm 
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Another couple of points I want to make about 1.6, is that the developers are working hard to devise methods of loading Mootools in pieces, rather than as a whole. Mootools *is* big. The new release is bigger! And the Joomla! developers want a fast Joomla! even more than any of us, do. So, they have been working on ways to "smart load" Mootools.

In addition, the frontend captions requirement has already (I believe) been removed. So, we are getting response on this. The only thing you won't see is a UI object added that would cause the interface to fail. But, the developers are actively developing 1.6 in these directions.

I believe this is going to be a thing of the past in a version or two. I see everyone with the same goal of flexibility and a genuine interest not to bloat the interface for those with bandwidth issues. I hope you understand something that you might not have known. There are friends - contributors to the project - from countries who do have these limitations. The developers do care. Sounds cheesy, maybe, but it's worth letting you know in case you were not aware.

It's simply a matter of time. It is not a stubbornness or unwillingness to hear you, but rather a complex problem that is being attacked in a multi-step fashion by many teams, including teams that are not part of Joomla! or Mootools.

Complex problems of this nature that involve evolving and maturing technology always have these growing pains. I know this after 25 years in the IT industry. It's unfortunate, I agree, but solutions are coming.

OK, thanks much for hearing me. I am hopeful something in my response helped illuminate the issue better.

Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:56 pm 
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drakeone69 wrote:
I am also having a problem being able to use the "add to cart" buttons on a clients website (kidstoymarket.com) only in IE, the mootools.js creates a ACCESS IS DENIED error in IE8. Although it is needed for the rokslideshow to display properly as well, so removing mootools for guests or front-end changes the site look and layout. I am unsure how to approach this problem so that way the buttons work correctly and the rokslideshow and any other components that use mootools can work properly too.

Regards, David


David - I assume you have contacted Andy - and the RocketTheme folks - with your question about their extension? The issues you are discussing with IE 8 and RokSlideShow are best addressed by those folks. (I hope this is already resolved, though!)

Thanks!
Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:18 pm 
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Top stuff Amy, quite informative indeed. My issue is not with Mootools as such - personally I believe JavaScript frameworks provide tons more benefits than potential drawbacks - but the following quote.
AmyStephen wrote:

In 1.6, we will enjoy a new Comments Extension which is currently a commercial product offered by JXtended that they are donating to the community. Those most knowledgeable about technology features will agree that Ajax is an important part of new technology. The Comments Extension will sport Ajax-enabled response and rating elements.
Will this Comments Extensionn be part of the core Joomla! 1.6 framework? I have no problems shelling out the funds for software when its licensing requires such. However I am a bit wary of a commercial enterprise product being included in the core (I am not saying that this one will be :)). I have seen instances where companies, for various reasons, experience a change of heart resulting in, termination of support for their product or charging a fee for its continued usage.

It would be interesting to see the conditions under which this extension was made available.

P.S. This is the wrong place for it but my vote for a core Comments Extension is yvComment :D.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:26 pm 
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Yes, Dizzi, the comments extension was donated by the JXTended folks to the project to be included at no charge as a part of the 1.6 core. I don't look for Andrew Eddie or Louis Landry or Rob Schley to have a change of heart on this donation. They have been there for us for years and they aren't going to take back this gift. If they do, I'll eat my hat! lol!

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:45 pm 
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Good to know. Yes, JXTended has been a dependable J! partner. I recall using their freely available Comments Extension when I first started out with Joomla! 1.0.x a couple of years ago, so I don't think your hat will become part of your diet :).

Cheers

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:40 pm 
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Well for my site I have an optimized comments component based on Jquery. The library is about 15KB, and it does everything required, so it seems I no longer have any requirements to warrant continuation on this topic. Good luck to you folks.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:15 pm 
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Excellent! I'm a big jQuery fan, too. Thanks emeyer!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:27 pm 
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emeyer wrote:
...If you or anyone else is interested in making a UI option to seleectively enable MooTools on different pages by including it as an optional module, rather than incorporating it directly into the core, I'd be glad to continue the discussion...


That's the real unique topic of this thread!

@Amy - I know your effort and hard work for the joomla flag and I'm sure your excellent point of view about mootools system integrated in joomla core is the real no-changeble situation.

What I don't like is the decision to use them in the core! I think is very opinable! Just my 2cts...

Joomla could be a real CMS without any legacy in the core... even for mootools!

you know linux has different GUI but the core is the core and everybody can develop his own distro with his own kde - gnome - etc. for lite / mobile / desktop linux

joomla will be a mootools-CMS, surely! What a splendid idea! And above all, joomla community will be the FastWireGap one! Not taking into account the entire world!!!!!!

Moreover we cannot choose anything about mootools itself! what files using or downloading, etc. Obviously you can find a solution, a hack, or something else but in this case it's not a genuine joomla... I hope to find out no other "surprise" into 1.6 version :(


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:47 pm 
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emeyer wrote:
Well for my site I have an optimized comments component based on Jquery. The library is about 15KB, and it does everything required, so it seems I no longer have any requirements to warrant continuation on this topic. Good luck to you folks.


----JQuery is used for Drupal projects more than mootools ---- 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:13 pm 
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Yes, Newart, you are entitled to your opinion and it is clear, as you have stated, that you do not approve of the decision the developers made to include Mootools in core. Unfortunately, we are a couple of years down the road and making a different decision is not an option for 1.6. I also hope soon, by 1.7, or 1.8, we do have more flexibility in this area.

If you need help implementing the code snippets I shared while we wait for Joomla! and the JS industry to be more flexible, I am happy to help you create a Mootools-free Joomla! for your use. I, too, like jQuery and use it with Joomla! and when I carry the flag with a blue drop. ;)

Nice to see you around.
Amy :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:00 pm 
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AmyStephen wrote:
Yes, Newart, you are entitled to your opinion and it is clear, as you have stated, that you do not approve of the decision the developers made to include Mootools in core.


Hi Amy,
nice to meet you again! And Yes, I Do not agree with that decision! It's clear now and yesterday too...

AmyStephen wrote:
Unfortunately, we are a couple of years down the road and making a different decision is not an option for 1.6. I also hope soon, by 1.7, or 1.8, we do have more flexibility in this area.


What doing before down-the-road? Discussing? Yes the community talks about it in the forum! But even asking to some devs I never received a clear reply, a discussed solution!!!! Now all done! Well, Viva the community!

And, just for curiosity, why mootools? Is it the best? Stop be quiet, that's my idea in my mind, now! I don't want to fire joomla... just another point of view (or better, way of doing something) when I was in the joomla team (2007) I remember I HAD (GOT) A GOOD FEEDBACK AND A "DIRECT-LINE" WITH MY JOOMLERS (and also outside the international forum). Stop be quiet!

AmyStephen wrote:
I also hope soon, by 1.7, or 1.8, we do have more flexibility in this area.


I hope but you know a core architecture isn't so simple to change... before you have to change some minds... and so the time can be much more than expected - maybe for the 2.0

AmyStephen wrote:
If you need help implementing the code snippets I shared while we wait for Joomla! and the JS industry to be more flexible, I am happy to help you create a Mootools-free Joomla! for your use.


Thanx a lot for yr friendly help, I know you'll do it! The various hack for avoiding mootools in 1.5 is already an old trick of mine... I'm not confident with managing mootools files...

AmyStephen wrote:
I, too, like jQuery and use it with Joomla! and when I carry the flag with a blue drop. ;)

Nice to see you around.
Amy :)


I never used Drupal for my projects, as I like very much Joomla but I have to say that Drupal can be faster than Joomla and I have not mootools heavy size under my browser... I hope to discover that even 1.6 can be flexible as 1.5.x is... that's my "fear". Drupal is great with his node system but it's his limit too... joomla 1.6 compared to Drupal 6.13 (I know that version and never used for testing purposes the 7 dev version at the moment) is already limited: mootools legacy - categorization not unlimited - search component to fully remake - and so on....

Bye and nice to see you again, I hope joomla can be better than my fears...

newart (in latin is the internet part of the world!)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:19 pm 
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You make me smile. The only thing we differ on is your comment that this issue is about changing minds. This isn't a stubbornness on the developers part - or just an opinion they hold. This is about having all the technical pieces in place to make it possible so that the developers have a JS Framework and end users don't get stuck with framework conflicts. It's in those technical areas that I see a great deal progress. In terms of peoples thinking, though, it seems to me that everyone agrees with your point that offering choice is a good idea.

Glad you are also able to work around this while we wait for better answers.

Cheers!
Amy :)

PS - returned last Saturday from several days in Italy - wow! :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:00 pm 
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AmyStephen wrote:
This is about having all the technical pieces in place to make it possible so that the developers have a JS Framework and end users don't get stuck with framework conflicts.


that's the trouble, one framework for everybody ;)

AmyStephen wrote:
In terms of peoples thinking, though, it seems to me that everyone agrees with your point that offering choice is a good idea.


joomla thanks you! ;)

AmyStephen wrote:
PS - returned last Saturday from several days in Italy - wow! :)


wow wow wow that's the most important part of our posts :) :) I'm happy to see you're happy for Italy days... I'm 50 kms from Milan in the lakes region near the Swiss border... if you like (and if possible) pm me when again in Italy! bye!!!!!!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:59 pm 
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newart wrote:
AmyStephen wrote:
PS - returned last Saturday from several days in Italy - wow! :)


wow wow wow that's the most important part of our posts :) :) I'm happy to see you're happy for Italy days... I'm 50 kms from Milan in the lakes region near the Swiss border... if you like (and if possible) pm me when again in Italy! bye!!!!!!!!



@Amy - thinking of what posted I beg your pardon! I'm married, wife and with 2 children! I don't want to be silly or other. Our modern times are hard to understand, also in relation with people and posters... My sentences were only for a polite behaviour on my part and for "stopping" or, if you like, as a stupid conclusion about the closed mootools 1.6 drama... Cheers and please forget my ill-mannered sentence, if any...

I've written this post for you (and surely you know me since the joomla birth and so I presume you've understood my courtesy) but I've avoided a pm 'cause It's above all for all posters reading this thread! It was only a... joke of words, all right! nothing other...

Stop, I have written NOTHING! Reset my mind and Go Joomla GO! ;) :)

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former Q&T WorkGroup Joomla member - Italian Translation Team Member


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:45 pm 
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion

Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:35 pm
Posts: 7056
Location: Nebraska
No problem! I did not respond to avoid an off-topic post but was very appreciative of your kindness. It's a trait of our international community. If you for whatever reason ! find yourself in Nebraska, please let me know, too. My family and I would love to welcome you and your family.

Later!
Amy :)

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http://Twitter.com/AmyStephen
http://www.alltogetherasawhole.org/


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:06 am 
Joomla! Fledgling
Joomla! Fledgling

Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:46 pm
Posts: 1
Hi,
I am using joomla v 1.5.14. After activating SEO option, my all menu does not appear. I turned it off again but still does not showing my menu. In the menu manager, It shows that number of menu items published but can't see any of this item in the "Main menu" or any other menus. I investigated in the database, those menu items are still there. Can any one help me in this problem?

Thanks in advanced
Abedur


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