Open Letter and invitation .....

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Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby rdeutz » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:19 pm

Open Letter and invitation for participation and support for an International Joomla Conference to OpenSourceMatters, The Project, The Leadership, Production and Community Team, any Joomla! working group and any community member.


It started as a simple offer for a place and date and the response was amazing. Many people liked the idea of meeting people in person on an international basis. We all know, have heard about or have participated and know what fun and great experience a Joomla!Day is. The international event will be slightly different but also a great experience for all the attendees.

I think it is important that all parts of the community together build a "WE" and help to make this event a great success. I truly believe that we can make it happen, but we need support from everywhere. We need OSM as the trademark holder and official organisation in the Joomla! community. We need our teams and working groups to be there and talk with the other community members. And most of all we need the participation of all the people in the Joomla! community.

Joomla! is Open Source and this is a great concept, let us use this concept to discuss all options and possibilities in an open environment. Please note that nothing is fixed yet and your suggestions and the wishes of the community are very welcome.

This is an open invitation to help shape the event and to be part of it.

Robert
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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby mcsmom » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:29 pm

Hi Robert,

Ryan and I each have both replied to email from you about events in the past week, but neither of us has gotten any response from you. Still hoping to get a reply. :)
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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby AmyStephen » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:47 pm

Elin -

I did not see these emails. Robert is inviting the project and OSM and the community to help shape this event and be a part of it. Are there issues that would prevent your participation? And if so, might we try to address those openly, please? I think is a very promising opportunity for us, as an International community, to get together and have fun with Joomla!.

Respect.
Amy

Edit: I meant to copy my post and I changed it, but changed it back. :P
Last edited by AmyStephen on Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby rdeutz » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:56 am

mcsmom wrote:Hi Robert,

Ryan and I each have both replied to email from you about events in the past week, but neither of us has gotten any response from you. Still hoping to get a reply. :)


Hi Elin,

let us take this discussion open. I think transparency is very important in OpenSource projects. Right from the start I tried to make this to a community initiative. People like to help, if they think they don't wasting their time. A good example is the great logo proposal for the event.

It is not so important what I am thinking, it is important that all parts of the Joomla! community stand behind this. I have been ask for support and I repeat this: Are you personally and OSM disposed to step in and help to make this community initiative to be a success?
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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby brad » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:25 am

Sounds like a great idea. I know I have spoken to many people about an international Joomla event before, so you're certainly not the only one who thinks it will go down well. I'll be sure to talk to Ryan about this when I next catch up with him, which is what I would encourage anyone wanting to run an event like this to do.

I've been involved with many Joomla events, and as you should be aware, all that is required it to comply with a few legal matters regarding the logo and name usage. What's the big secret? Aren't all Joomla events open for anyone to attend? Maybe I missed something.. just never seen a proposal for a Joomla event done this way.

What support (apart from people attending) are you asking/requesting from OSM/Joomla? Despite receiving an email from you similar to this thread, I'm not able to see what the request is. Is it for money? Is it for approval to use the Joomla name in a commercial setting? Can I help with anything?

My only observation about your comments in this thread is that it does appear a little childish to refuse to respond to someone's private email on this issue.. not that I have any idea what Ryan and Elin wrote. If I reply to your email in private that you wrote to me yesterday on this event will you also castigate me in public like you and Amy have done to Elin and Ryan? Will this post of mine be torn apart and somehow be turned against me?

Perhaps I've missed something.. anyway..


PS Nice to see you bringing discussions like this to our forums, at least it shows solidarity and togetherness in the original spirit of the 'All together' slogan we used when Joomla was first formed. Can you believe it.. you were the 94th person to signup to this forum (was called forum.opensourcematter.org then) and now we have over 300 000 members? Amazing growth, thanks to people like yourself who continue to form part of the community.
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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby rdeutz » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:52 am

Hi Brad,

just a few things.

I have written an Email to Elin and Ryan for the reason that they are informed about the offer I have made about place and date for an international Joomla! Conference. They responded with some legal advice and behind-the-scenes information and with an invitation to help on other events/plans. That's it, not more not less, but not really related to this topic.

My intention is to bring all the people together working on this idea. I am not asking for a specific pice of support, in the first step I am asking form generally support. If you have an idea what you can do or will do, perfect.

Sometimes it is a little bit complicated to make it in a way that everyone find this was good approach. Sending messages to people directly or post it only in the forum. I can only say that is not my intention to castigate people not in public nor in any other way.
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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby AmyStephen » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:19 pm

Brad -

There is nothing blaming here. Just a great community building event - our first International Joomla! Conference - and a desire to work openly with OSM, the project, and the community. By having these discussions in a transparent fashion, others are able to learn what's happening and jump in and help. Plus it builds excitement! And, we would love to see that!

Thanks for responding!

Amy

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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby brad » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:04 pm

Thanks Robert, I believe you. I will try to find some time to talk to Ryan about this and see what we on the project side can do to help with this event.

Amy, I am not sure why you are trying to play tag team here.. Robert is able to express himself quite clearly without you having to add you 2 cents each time. The more you do this, the more likely it is that others will refrain from jumping in.

Looking forward to seeing others replies to this thread. I'll try to keep an eye on it.
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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby AmyStephen » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:49 pm

Brad -

You accused us of castigating people and I responded my intentions were honorable. Rather than acknowledge your mistake, you have now accused me of tag teaming.

That's just not fun, Brad, and at nearly 50 years of age, it's not something I choose to spend my time doing. You are right. A forum with that negativity will have fewer responders. Over time, people will stop returning and eventually it could stunt community growth.

You owe me an apology for those accusations.

Amy

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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby masterchief » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:27 am

My suggestion is you rely more on the local JUGs and concentrate on getting the conference off the ground (rather than making this a wide open thing that where everyone throws in their opinion). After all, do you really want Australia telling you how to run a conference in Germany :P

But, can I say, if you are wanting key speakers for this you need to be pitching to them and booking them "now". I know my calendar is already filling up for 2010 appearances rapidly.

Personally, I'd like to see "several" (not just one) large regionally focused events next year so in that respect I'm right behind the concept, but I would probably put my shoulder to the wheel for an Asia-Pac event personally. But, as I said, it really comes down the the local JUGs supporting these things - that's where you need to source your help from.
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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby mcsmom » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:55 am

Just so everyone knows, Robert was told we'd be happy to have him organize a Joomla Day or Joomla Days, that he or whoever is working on it is free organize it for as many days and with whatever format they want and have speakers and attenders from however many countries they can get.

We've already had major multiday Joomla Days in the UK, Netherlands, and elsewhere with major international participation, and we're always happy when people want to organize more. In fact this summer we changed the rules to make it even easier to have multiple events in the same country in the same year. So I guess I don't really understand what the point of this thread is except perhaps that you want to get publicity, which is certainly a worthwhile thing for an event organizer to want to do.

Again, I know Ryan is looking forward to getting a Joomla Day request from you.

As Robert also knows, because Ryan and I each encouraged him to put together a proposal, we've been working for some time on an RFP for a new type of large event that should be out in the next couple of weeks. He also knows that assuming that our first developer conference goes off without any problems and doesn't lose money, we're looking for locations on each continent for developer conferences in the first few months of 2010. If anyone has suggestions on locations (ie specific spaces at appropriate facilities, not the name of a city) for the developer conferences in Asia, South America, Europe, Africa and Australia, please contact the events team.
So we must fix our vision not merely on the negative expulsion of war, but upon the positive affirmation of peace. MLK 1964.
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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby rdeutz » Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:01 pm

I guess there is some uncertainness about the reason "Why I started this thread" and I will try to make it clearer.

  • When not here, where else? This is the joomla.org forum the best place to come in touch with the community.
  • We will do a Joomla event and for me it is normal to post here in the event forum and ask for support. Here are the people with experiences in making joomla events and I hope that the people step in, help, talk about do's and dont's, share their ideas and be part of that journey.

So, please don't search for hidden secrets, there isn't a secrets at all and this posting was made without any hidden thoughts.
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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby mcsmom » Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:49 am

Great, . I think it is a cool idea to try to have an organizing team for Joomla Day(s) that isn't a local group, and of course this forum is a great place to do that.
So we must fix our vision not merely on the negative expulsion of war, but upon the positive affirmation of peace. MLK 1964.
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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby kenmcd » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:39 am

mcsmom wrote: . . . In fact this summer we changed the rules to make it even easier to have multiple events in the same country in the same year. So I guess I don't really understand what the point of this thread is except perhaps that you want to get publicity, which is certainly a worthwhile thing for an event organizer to want to do.


News flash - No one has to ask your permission to host an event.

My guess is they were posting here trying to be open and upfront about it,
and to head-off the expected condemnation for supposed nefarious intentions.

Your attitude (continued condescending attitude) indicates to me that this effort is a waste of time.
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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby mcsmom » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:51 am

@Ken

No one needs our permission to host an event. They do need permission to use the Joomla! trademark in the name of an event. However, this forum is for discussing events that have or want to have official listing as Joomla! events. It's up to Robert et al do decide if they want to do that or not, and they know what they need to do if they want that (i.e. follow the terms of the Joomla! Day Charter) and that theevents team would be pleased if they would do so. If the answer is no, then the thread should go over to the lounge probably.
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http://officialjoomlabook.com Get it at http://www.joomla.org/joomla-press-official-books.html Buy a book, support Joomla!.

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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby kenmcd » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:47 am

.
mcsmom wrote:@Ken
No one needs our permission to host an event. They do need permission to use the Joomla! trademark in the name of an event.


No one needs your permission to use the word "Joomla" in a conference name.

There are many examples of other conference names available all over the planet.

A perfect example right now - The O'Reilly MySQL Conference & Expo
The 2010 conference is not co-sponsored by the MySQL camp as in previous years.

You will notice there is no use of the trademarked MySQL logo on the conference website.
Simply using the database name MySQL is fair use and not covered by trademark law.
MySQL has no legal right to require permission to use the word MySQL in the conference name.

Obviously there has been some split causing O'Reilly to go it alone this year without the participation,
or blessing, or issues of dealing with the MySQL camp.
I did notice the obvious use of the phrase "This inclusive, ..." in the conference description.
Perhaps they had some issues with who was to be or not be included in the conference.

"Joomla" is also simply the name of a content management system.
Using it as that is not a trademark issue.

So I would really appreciate it if you stopped spreading this "mis-information" as fact.
No one needs your permission to use the word Joomla in the name of a conference.

.
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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby LorenzoG » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:40 am

Ken, there is no reason to be upset at this stage. You guys are doing a great work and when you know more how you want to organize it and in which format, please take up a dialougue and talk with us. We are not working against you or other parts of the community, in contrary, we are community driven project and rely on our community.

There have been arranged a lot of Joomla events in the past years and most of them in a Joomladay format there we have a predeterminated charter, which makes us very easy to approve since we have already discussed it internally and with the different organizers and together worked up the format, marketing material, logos etc.

As Elin says, if someone want to use the Joomla trademark in an event, you need to seek permission. I have seen that there have been voices that you should trademark your event and good branding is important so the event brand doesn't get misused or mistreated in communications and campaigns. I fully agree and the same applies actually with the Joomla trademark, but if you want to that, you need to remember that you then need to have an own name and brand that isn't related or contain Joomla tm. This since we can't allow that an individual or a group restricts the Joomla tm use for the rest of the community.

Normally, when someone (most times it is a local group) want to arrange an event, it goes very smothly, without any major problems and with a spirit of understanding and cooperation with the Joomla project.

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No permission required to use word Joomla in event title

Postby kenmcd » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:09 am

.
I am not talking about using a Joomla trademark.
I am talking about the legal fair use of the word Joomla in an event title.
My position is that requires no permission from anyone.

I would guarantee that O'Reilly did not ask the MySQL camp for permission to use the word.
Nor are they required to do so by any trademark law.

It is unclear to me exactly what you are saying above regarding this issue.
Are you again asserting that permission must be obtained to use this word?


.
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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby LorenzoG » Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:37 pm

Yes, Ken, this is what I meant, if you want to use Joomla as a part of the Event name like for example "Joomla International Conference" or JoomlaDay then you need to ask for permission. There are several reasons for it and at the end, how strange it maybe sounds in your ears (or eyes in this case) is that we don't want to come into a situation there an individual or a few in a group actually make so the community in whole get restricted to use the Joomla name.

Ken, we aren't evil or working against you. You need to understand that a community contain more than a just a few individuals and we need to think on the community as whole.

Please, do you think we can be a little constructive and working forward. One way, if you disagree with us is that you try to connect someone that are specialized on trademark law that can help you to explain so you make the right decisions.

As I said in my previous posting, for most people this isn't any problem.

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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby kenmcd » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:15 pm

.
First, I am not discussing this issue in any capacity related to the conference for which this thread was started. I have no decision making authority regarding the name or any other aspect of the conference.
I am discussing this as an average community member to clarify the OSM position and to make a point.

It appears we are going to remain in disagreement.
In my opinion you (OSM) are wrong.
No one has any legal requirement to ask permission to use the word Joomla in an event name.
If it were ever to come to an actual legal challenge you would lose.
It would appear the O'Reilly lawyers would agree. And many others.
I could show many other conferences as examples, but why bother.

I think this is another example where the desire for control has overshadowed common sense, and the actual law. You create more conflict, distrust, and anger with these out of control copyright policies then the value of the supposed benefit.


Guess we're done here . . .

.
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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby brad » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:09 pm

To me the biggest benefit in working with the Joomla project on events like this is the support via official recognition and "marketing" of the event on our sites.
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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby mcsmom » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:35 am

@Ken,

You are mistaken. I don't know if you have taken legal advice on that or not, but I have. Using the name in an event description (such as a paragraph or sentence) is one thing, using it in the name is very different because it is likely to confuse the public into thinking is is a Joomla! event.

I can guarantee you that O'Reilly has trademark permission for all of the names it uses. MySQL contracts with O'Reilly to run those conferences and they are promoted as co organized by them.
http://www.mysql.com/news-and-events/users-conference/
Obviously MySQL can use its own name in its conference name.
Further, MySQL has a much stricter trademark policy than the Joomla! Project does, but that doesn't matter because something like name use in a conference name is not even close to borderline.

Anyway on the event itself, I was happy to hear from Robert that he would like it to be an official event.
So we must fix our vision not merely on the negative expulsion of war, but upon the positive affirmation of peace. MLK 1964.
http://officialjoomlabook.com Get it at http://www.joomla.org/joomla-press-official-books.html Buy a book, support Joomla!.

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Re: Open Letter and invitation .....

Postby AmyStephen » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:57 pm

Brad hit the nail on the head - there is benefit to collaborating and working together. Let's shoot for that. The notion that the project would have to enforce the trademark against a community-driven event to celebrate Joomla! would be as tragic as the community not working with the project that helps make Joomla! possible. Let's work together. If it's not official - so be it! But, let's make certain that is clear that's it's not official. I'd personally be very disappointed to not be all together on this. We've worked hard for many years.


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