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(Reposted from another website, hoping to get more feedback from the project team and workgroup members too)

There's a fantastic discussion over on the Joomla Community Workgroup Leadership List(TM) that includes a carefully crafted email from Andrew Eddie (forwarded by Brad Baker) about creating a place for folks to call out for help, expose problems, raise concerns/complaints etc.

As I'm not allowed to post to that list, I wanted to say some things about it here, hoping others choose to chime in and voice their thoughts too.

As Andrew states, 2009 was a year that included a lot of drama for Joomla. Using the kitchen metaphor, a lot of pots boiled over, leaving a heck of a mess on the stovetop. How can this be handled better in the future? Instead of complaining about the mess, how can we ensure that these pots get attention before a grease fire breaks out?

I'd LOVE to see something magical happen: I know there's a discussion to move the Joomla core itself from the much-despised Gforge, and I'd love to see their web-based interface to whatever code repository they choose be Redmine.

Why?

Not only does it not suck, it also has a polymorphic tracker. Now, I see most of you nodding off or shaking your heads, so bear with me a sec.

When I say polymorphic tracker I really mean tracker that can have issues easily created for forum disputes, workflow problems, and complaints about stuff falling through the cracks like user group approval.

Are you still with me?

What this does is give folks a place to air their concerns and complaints about things that are not code, but out of their control that needs attention from the project as a whole. I hear of folks abusing moderators on the Joomla forums, but I also hear about moderators stepping over the line that shouldn't be crossed by a moderator. I hear about people that registered their events or user groups over a year ago and still have no response, or are getting the runaround. The list goes on and on. In fact it goes on so far that I've given up on Skype, as it seems nobody wants to talk about anything useful, they think Skype is some sort of group-enabled primal scream therapy or some such nonsense.

I don't have time for it anymore, and don't care either, if all they can offer is an angry mob. I've been deeply insulted by people I trusted, people I consider friends, because they allowed their anger to turn them mean.

I'm also powerless to effect any sort of change on all these things I hear about, as they are not documented anywhere and there's no way to ask for accountability.

However, Redmine's wicked shiny spiffy whack-daddy polymorphic tracker can do a world of good for this project:

• Issues are documented, and disputes and resolution can be tracked
• It becomes unmistakably clear to the folks behind the project what needs fixin'
• By enabling the vote plugin, you can then vote on items, providing priority
• All can comment on issues, further providing a steam valve approach
• EVERYONE can gauge the progress of the project by seeing what issues weigh most on everyone's hearts

I've repeatedly volunteered in the past to help with just such an approach, and always got a polite thanks but no thanks. Seeing this email from Brad to the list tells me this issue has gone unsolved, and for quite some time. Isn't now appropriate to take measures to keep 2010 from being the angry pitchfork experience that 2009 was?

What do you think?

Mitch, first I want to say thanks for picking this issue up and running with it. It's an important one to grapple with as the project continues to mature and grow. The sheer fact that the number of moving parts in the project is increasing going to mean people have problems interfacing with it, and I would wager mostly it's not human error, it's more likely that the right information isn't in the right place or it's been misunderstood.

However, it is important for a system/process to be a net for bona-fide issues that have the potential to turn septic if not addressed. Likewise, it should also filter out the small minority of frivolous and ridiculous issues that crop up from time to time. In the middle is a very large area that can be accurately labeled "continuous improvement". Adhoc works up to a point, but I know we are way beyond that point.

I probably didn't have a particular technology in mind yet but if it helps as a framework to define the process itself then go for it. Whatever the system is, it should be of benefit to people both inside and outside the project. I don't really know what it looks like yet, I only think it time we started talking about it (knowing full well it could take a year to iron out). And in terms of ownership, I think it falls into the area of either the Community Oversight Committee and/or the Community Working Group.

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We're probably in the same frame of mind, just different approaches or viewpoints. Ultimately I am recommending Redmine as you can create custom trackers for all kinds of things, and assign default workflows for each.

That said, you could create a tracker for user group requests, where folks can "open a ticket" for a registration that never came back. Or there could be a tracker for JoomlaDay registration, where there could be an open, documented and easily-searchable database of how people walk through the process, and what trips them up.

In the end you can see what is happening, and catch that pot right as it starts to boil - and well before a mess is made on the stovetop.

http://demo.redmine.org is the online demo.

I run it for my client projects as well. I can track meetings, notes, wiki entries, documents, file downloads, and yes I think the voting plugin is awesome. I just watched a stream of "+1" messages today in the Community WG Leadership group, for instance.

Whatever procedure is used for something like this I think it's important that it is used to address issues with activities and not individuals. Actually that doesn't sound correct let me try an example.

Correct way
Issue raised:- Time taken to respond to domain requests

Wrong Way
Issue raised:- OSM are all terrible and dont do their job because it takes too long to respond to domain requests.

I also think its important in the process to allow people to raise an issue without receiving a standard reply such as "well, what would you do to change it".
It's not necessary for someone to be able to propose a solution in order for them to identify an issue especialy as they probably are not fully aware of the entire situation. Of course it would be great if people did have proposals but that should not be a prerequisite.

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I agree, I think it would be great to have better software to manage project issues like this.

I know that plans for the actual joomla files/tracker etc etc are well underway to move off Gforge on to a custom solution. An alternative to Gforge may well be an option.. HOWEVER until we have a process to deal with the information coming in a tracker of this sort would just be another place where unadressed issues would sit.

We need a process to evaluate and deal with complaints. Whatever software this process could utilize I am all for it.

I'm also seeking solutions to enable the wider discussion of issues like this, while still also keeping them in the place they belong (I'm talking about Andrews review process idea.

Just in case you doubt it too, I am spending hours and hours each day working to improve things and helping to involve others. We're going forward at least.

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I think this is a much needed improvement within the Joomla community.

To continue with what Andrew hinted at and Brad expanded on, there should be a team that deals with this.

The CWG or CoC may own it, but may not be the sole responsible party for dealing with every issue raised. Preferably the CoC would own it since this is about the Management of the Project, not necessarily just a place for the community to complain.

I would think a dedicated team to launch and manage a Project Tracker for the entire Joomla Project is important, at least in the beginning. Maybe this new 'team' would include a member from each of the PLT, CLT and OSM, much like the LT does now. Maybe this does fall under the LT wing, I don't know what all responsibilities they already have on their plate.

But these Leaders would act as Liaisons to each group to address issues as they are raised and would coordinate with the people within that specific group to answer/address the issue and determine it's breakdown in process, address the reason and best possible resolution. If the people assigned to a specific project/task are overworked, they can then post a request for help on that particular project/task.

You could even have a Joomla Project job board for new help requests.

By simply having a place where all tasks/projects within the community is housed will lead to finding better solutions for problems.

I really don't care what software is used, the one that works would get my vote. But I'm with All of you on this one, it needs a process and people that are willing to work the process to resolve any issue faced.

I think we are just scratching the surface here of the idea of how to best handle and delegate what all this would encompass.

This is a great subject to address and I'm really glad to see the people above me all posting in this topic. Hope to see more of this positive input!

@Brad - I see the entire team working way too hard man, and it's very much appreciated. Whether people tell you or not, I thank you. I think this topic can help us all work smarter not harder.

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I believe such procedure not only would be beneficial to track and deal with the issues, but would very much help the community develop better skills to report issues.

Thank you all for your hard work!

Manoel

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I'm definitely in favor of trying to improve our communication - and simplifying our processes. During the last year or two, the project has gotten a lot more sophisticated with the TM applications, JUGs, Security reporting, Connect, etc. I think a lot of the disconnect simply comes from not having good tools to interact.

So, I like what I hear Mitch proposing. I'd recommend we not look at this as a "problem tracking" so much as a request processing system. If we had one place to submit requests (ex. trademark application, or JRD application), and concerns (whatever form those might take) then that would simplify things greatly.

If you need something from the project - go here - and follow the prompts - and the right folks behind the curtain will get the info. Getting a one-stop shopping portal type approach to getting what you need would go a long ways to improving things.

For many years in my career, I worked in data warehousing and with organizations setting goals and establishing performance metrics and reporting. This type of system holds potential to provide us data. And, there's nothing more powerful to a group working on goals than having metrics and data to measure progress.

In all of my work in this field, one lesson was unavoidable - and that is - the use of the data has to be safe. So, I echo Andrew's comments that nothing in this system ever be used as a witch hunt or way to blame people. As soon as that happens, then the system isn't trusted and won't be used. Starting with a goal of focusing on process improvements and an eagerness to find our problems is key.

There's been some talk about mediation or "moral cops" of some sort, to help us deal with our challenges. I might be overly optimistic here, but the system I hear Andrew, Brad, and Mitch talking about should reduce the vast majority of the frustrations we have had. We shouldn't have to have an moral authority to help us. We can cooperate I am certain.

I want to add that it is very important the data entered into this system be publicly viewable - just like our bug tracker - and that community be able to extract the data and analyze it. What should come of that is obvious areas of need for involvement and organic recruiting. Plus, it goes to help build trust.

I must say, Brad and Andrew's post, and then Mitch's ideas about putting these ideas to life, are the most hopeful, progressive ideas I have seen about how to strengthen our community. I'd like to help with this. I spend a lot of time already trying to help people connect to the project and this system seems to have potential to help automate that activity for everyone. Plus, I think I could help with any type of reporting or analysis. So, if I can be of help, please include me.

Thanks for this.

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@Brian: Appreciate your comments on the right way and the wrong way to raise issues.

@Amy: I think privacy needs to be a serious concern and examined appropriately.

I had the case yesterday were someone wanted me to be a witness to an alleged attack by a forum moderator. My counsel to him was it was not an attack and his reaction was inappropriate and I was then maligned for having a dysfunctional point of view. *sigh*. Where there is a serious case of someone "accusing" someone else, I think we have to respect that without privacy, some people won't be brave enough to step up, or at the other end of the spectrum you have the case I just quoted where people have no idea they are the problem. I don't agree that publicity equates to trust because it is a very threatening environment and trial-by-media is seldom fair. This system has to be a "safe" place for all concerned. Just because this is a community project doesn't give us the right to examine aspects of people's personal lives.

Having said that, I appreciate the image behind the "follow the prompts" and it would seem to be that what we are talking about here is the "ok, if all else fails, and none of the information we've suggested satisfies, here's the process for getting a real person to handle your issue". To that end, it might be useful to actually define the broad types of things that need human intervention to deal with; how to triage submissions; how to deal with "I'm sorry, we don't handle this", and so on. Currently we have an idea - probably time to start fencing what the scope would be. Keep in mind that as issues are processed, the "self help kiosk" potentially gets better and better thus reducing the amount the intervention system has to be used. That's the hope anyway.

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My overall point, Andrew, was that it might be good to consider this system Mitch is proposing as more than a "Bug Tracker for non-code issues" and use it for things such as "Trademark applications" or "submissions to JRD" or "JUG applications."

You are right, not all data should be open. If this system is designed as a way to enter a complaint about moderator treatment, then personally identifiable data - the description, reporter, etc., should be withheld.

But some data could still be made available in a more generic form that would provide access to general categories (ex. Moderation Complaint, TM Application) and status (open, closed, fixed, bad report), dates, etc., would help people learn about what's going on and how things are progressing.

This data can be useful to set and measure progress on goals. For example, a goal could be to reduce the number of complaints about moderation by 10%. Or, to speed processing of TM applications by 2 weeks.

On the Tracker, we can extract all of the issues for 1.5 and with it a small set of data elements and use it to show an increasing or decreasing number of problems with the router, for example, and we can demonstrate what the response rate from reporting to patch. That data is open and can be used by the community to learn about those issues and how we engage with those issues.

I would never suggest people's personal lives should be open to others, whether it's a free software community, or not, nor would I equate publicity (or the availability of data) to trust. But an environment where there is useful data that is open to all is one where people are better empowered to set and measure progress towards shared goals and one in which trust is strengthened.

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Sure, but I guess that depends on whether we are talking about an all-in-one system or whether we are talking about a review process which was what sparked by initial conversation with Brad. I don't mind which it is, but you'll just have to be more careful separating the "details" of what comment refers to which.

Yep.

Possibly.

I'd be reluctant to run down that road at this stage. Yes, KPI's/SLA's are wonderful things in a corporate environment (used properly), but they do not always map well to a predominantly volunteer environment where the motivation for keeping them is not directly linked to something as mercenary as a pay bonus.

Yes, that's an example of what you can do on the current tracker. I don't know that there is a particularly useful direct equivalent in looking at non-code "bugs" though. At any rate, future analysis is getting ahead of ourselves.

I'd really question whether such data should be put in public hands. I've seen some horrid conclusions being made with less sensitive data published even recently.

Could we steer back to looking at the actual process and/or the broad triggers by which a party would feel they need to use it?

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Just some ideas, thanks Andrew.

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I'm not familiar with redmine but I've been using a system from entp called tenderapps recently and it has the option to "make your discussions private or public depending on who you want to see them."

I'd definitely recommend taking a look at this as an option.

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Just setup a clean version of redmine on my laptop, and added the votes plugin. Combine that with custom workflows, and we could basically setup a nice tracker-like environment that had custom workflows based on what you were wanting to create - domain request, user group registration, JoomlaDay event, file a complaint, whatever. Each type would automatically get assigned to whomever was responsible for incoming items for that type, and the list goes on and on...

I'd be happy to setup a clean system somewhere to demonstrate what we could do with it.

UPDATE: Going to demo this at the installfest here in NYC this Monday, hopefully Elin will be there and I can show her around.

My take on this - if we can make ourselves remain dedicated to K.I.S.S., and act with a goal and not stray from it, we can provide a resource that everyone will soon take for granted :-)

Oh goodie, we are in the new forum now

Mitch, assuming the technology works, why is a person actually getting to the point of logging an issue on the system? What sort of issues are we trying to catch and how are we going to handle them?

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You should now what issues we're trying to catch. You started this. hehe!

Seriously though, I can think of many things we could use this for, a great example is for administrative issues: user group registration, domain registration, and so on. Right now we got some forms on the OSM site, and not much more. I think it would be a lot easier to setup types in a redmine tracker, and let folks work there. Then they would see status, resolution/response, etc. Maybe the folks on the JED could use it to track things as well, or maybe create a "project" called "Joomla Websites" and start mapping out tasks, dependencies and targets there so the folks working on all the sites knew what the others were up to.

How about trademark violations and the sort? Do we just throw that into the forums and hope someone gets on it? Might be a perfect fit for something like this too, as you have history, feeds, and ways to easily keep up on things. What keeps sticking in my mind is your original statement that we need to catch these things before they get to a full boil.

That said, each project also can use boards, wiki, calendars, and SCM browsers (git, svn, perforce, whatever). I'm sure this could become a very useful way for the project to have a controlled way to manage tasks that are not code-related (hence the original title).

I think this is the real issue. We are all assuming that these items have not been properly identified. What if they have been identified, but there is no mechanism to actually "turn the knob lower on the stove?" or "stir the pot so it doesn't spill?".

(I like the metaphor as you can see).

Although I am all for any technology thermometer that would start ringing when the pot starts to boil (example: threads with > X posts in them, requests that have remained unanswered for over Y days, etc), I believe that specific issues causing such concerns have been properly identified early on, but there were no counter actions or processes in place to handle things.

Just my 2 degrees ....

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All good points being made here.

If I take a step back, I see two issue stemming from the suggestion of Andrew's I shared on the Community Google Group.

One is I think discussed in this thread, the actual software or methods used to manage things.

A second is what Nick alludes to above, and that is the processes in place that allow submitted information to be acted upon. I'm trying to address this second point in my mind before I make the first my focus.

If we can setup anything at all, we need this "committee" or whatever form it takes to be accepted by all stakeholders first. It's not like any of us have missed the complaints (justified or not) it's just that we don't have any process (software aside) to analyse if the complaints are genuine or not, and/or do anything about it.

Perhaps I am just repeating with others have said, or maybe we need to even separate these two issues so they can be discussed independently.

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Brad I agree with your assessment, but I don't think the software is an issue... there's a ton of trackers out there... I think the real key is the process as you suggest.

My 'outline' or suggestion by 'committee' was just that, a suggestion. Anything is better than what we have right now to address the issues at hand.

When I say issues, the ones Mitch has used as an example are pretty good ones. The TM/domain requests would be a good start, and the software may solve alot of that, as from what I have seen, many email requests submitted aren't even in the system.

I've see thread after thread where Mandville has to deal with folks that aren't real happy for not getting a response after months and months. I can only imagine the number of folks who never even come back to question why they got no response. It's pretty much presumed if you hear no response, it was a 'no', even though that's not true.

So in this case, improved software that works may just make a sour issue sweet again.

I say put a couple of people on the task at hand of setting it up, Mitch and Beat both have said they have test servers they are using to analyze the software, and put them together with one or two WLT or PLT members that will work out the 'process' of it and do a test run on a specific task that we see is causing complaints.

I don't expect to rewrite policy with this thing, but removing some of the friction can go a long way in producing great benifits for all.

Edit for spelling...

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One thing I'm a little confused about is that people seem to be talking about using the new software for 2 different things

1. Conflict resolution type stuff
2. Form processing eg TM, domain name etc

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Yup, it does both. That's kinda my point :-)

Although as Nick said, issue is probably non-technical, but technical solutions could help: thus just fyi:

Our redmine server is more than just a test server , it is in production since months, with already over 100'000 cross-registered users, making it one of the larger user-base redmine installations:

http://forge.joomlapolis.com is redmine-powered.

Latest redmine 0.9 release solves the small UI issues we had before with that much users.

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Just FYI we have a new management system in the work for processing TM etc that will be our own dog food, thank you.

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This is a great discussion about a whistle that goes off when the pot boils and a knob on the stove to turn off the heat - and it's a dog's life but I hope the dog can eat from the pot too instead of getting thirsty on dry food .
I think it is absolutely excellent that Andrew picked up the smell of good food and pointed the way to the kitchen, with Brad opening the door, Mitch picking up on it with such practical suggestions for making a whistle, Amy grasping what could be cooked, and Robert identifying who the best chefs would be.

One suggestion I'd like to add relates to the knob on the stove - or rather, it is about what happens when the knob gets stuck.

I very much like Robert's suggestion of making a team of liaisons of other teams, and I hope and expect that most issues will be solved if everything that has been discussed here is taken further.
Still I am assuming that some issues will not be solved in this way. These could be issues like what Andrew wrote about, the conflict between a forum member who felt accused by a moderator and then got annoyed with Andrew. It could also be a domain registrant not agreeing with a trademark licence refusal. Or any other situation in which there is somebody who, rightly or wrongly, sincerely feels that a solution has not been reached.
For this sort of issue it might be good to have an ombudsman. I think most will know what sort of thing that is: somebody who is impartial and trusted, who has access to information and can keep things confidential or speak up when necessary, and who in a usually non-binding and often informal way helps to solve issues or otherwise at least states how the issue would best be solved. Normally, an ombudsman would not get involved until normal ways of solving an issue are exhausted - so first the whistle would go off to say there is a boiling pot and the chef would try to turn the knob and the heat down. An ombudsman is not a judge or regulator; an ombudsman is about understanding, integrity and respect not about power and authority. See also Wikipedia and the International Ombudsman Association.
I think an ombudsman at minimum would send a message to the community that ultimately there is somebody who may agree or disagree but will definitely listen, try to help and be reasonable and constructive. Perhaps in this way an ombudsman could also help restoring trust within the community if and where that is lacking.

Good, there's a new issue we can add to the tracker... folks that are allergic to dog food can request table scraps.

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Elin -

It would be helpful to hear specifics about the scope of your new management system. What functions will it perform? Would it make sense to use it, instead? Are there ways for folks to get involved?

Thanks!
Amy

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It's not another committee diluting our communication. But we definitely thought we needed better tracking, better access to communication between teams. We already have excellent working relationships and all the teams are in constant contact with each other. But, there still needed to be a way to organize and track issues. As a result, we have gotten a fully Joomla integrated CRM by members of the Joomla third party development community. About 20 people from across the teams have been involved in planning and producing our CRM solution.

Right now, the JED and JRD for example (they were the first inspiration) don't know what the other is currently in talks with an extension owner/joomla company about. And there really was no uniform way for the users to know what's going on at any given time.

Centralized communication was the only way to get us organized, right hand always knowing what the left hand is doing. Currently the way we keep members of our own teams and other teams apprised of issues is by copying the team emails when we communicate with an individual or company. It often results in missed emails,miscommunication, etc just because someone forgets to hit a "reply all". Messy. That didn't work very well and it was starting to feel downright silly. We needed to bring it all together.

Other ticketing systems volunteered services but truly, the only way to handle all our communications *plus* streamline and illuminate the trademark process along with it, is to have the full CRM capability--and we knew we couldn't do it with a non-Joomla product. The developer's team has been working on our detailed specs for about 8 months.

Communications between teams will be simply a matter of visiting the conversation (ticket) logged with times, subscribers, and involved parties. We get to still communicate directly with our developers and community members in our same friendly tone, but it's all organized and documented automatically. Because of the email "piping" users can still communicate with us through email and not feel compelled to visit the tracking website, without any loss in documentation.

All users will be able to track their status of trademark license application through this interface, and all teams will be able to instantly be apprised of that status. Beyond what a regular support ticket system does, we'll have multiple status screens for each individual Joomla team site (ie JED, JRD, Site Showcase, Connect and Translation team ) and of course one for the trademark information. No more lost OSM emails! No more guessing and waiting. Even better, users will know who is assigned to handle their questions (just like a support ticket system). This will allow us to instantly share information with dozens of volunteers across the six teams.

We know this type of communication improvement is necessary, so we will be launching with the minimum capabilities on a records hub type website very soon. Over the coming months, we will eventually (we hope!) integrate logins over all the Joomla team websites. The current plan is to get the functionality out now, even if it means our developers and community members need to create yet another Joomla site login there at the hub.

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What a shame this was not communicated earlier. Makes the whole idea of a redmine system a waste of time if there has been a custom joomla based solution written. Although I am kind of suprised that something that has clearly been under development for a long time wasnt considered in the first place by those that knew about it

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Thanks Toni for communicating these excellent news. Better late than never.

Sounds very promising, specially if the default setting is public tracks/communication.

Will that exciting Joomla component be GPL and available for others to use freely too ?

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That sounds awesome. Looks like you guys are way ahead of the game if you've been at this for 8 months in development.

If this new system is already being developed to handle and communicate submissions across all J! Groups, why not add one more category for 'stalled' or 'unanswered' or 'unresolved' issues.

This additional submission/tracker 'category' would become a 'Joomla Mayday' so to speak, and more in line I believe with what Andrew's email raised in the first place.

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