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Reading the above, I guess there can still be a misunderstanding with the term "internal rules"...

Imho, "internal rules" doesn't mean secret. You can have "internal rules" which are fully public.

People confuse often privacy with secrecy... In this case:
- Privacy would apply to the details of a given request
which is not same as:
- Secrecy, which would be making the process and its rules not public, which is already not the case as I understand.

Thus having public rules for evaluation (or self-evaluation by the user as already the case, although confusing) that are applied internally within the TM team (aka "internal rules") makes perfect sense.

In general such an open-source project you may want to protect Privacy of community members, but only where really needed, but you don't want Secrecy, as that would be against the open-source spirit.

Please anyone correct me if I misunderstood the misunderstanding or what was meant by "internal rules" above, regarding the Trademark policy and licensing processes.

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Beat - the only time I have seen the word "secret" in this thread (other than Brian's footer) is when Dave clarified there are no "secrets." I don't see anyone else suggesting there are. So, I think it was a point of confusion that people thought that might have been suggested - it was not - and now, we can safely put that idea behind us.

+++

What we all do seem to agree on now, is that there is an opportunity to simplify things, which is what Ewout is trying to do with the policy, to begin with. So, even though it took us five pages and a bunch of posts, it's all good, because I feel like we now have a good foundation on which to begin.

@Ewout - I changed the Wiki markup to Google Docs markup now.

As Ewout has said, whatever comes of the text, whether it ends up being used as a checklist, or it becomes the policy, or it simply allows us to clarify the rules, it's a good exercise to see if we all understand things the same.

So, feel free to jump in - Be Bold, as they say, and in an inclusive and collaborative way, as a community, let's see if we can identify what our effective Trademark Policy is!

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Thanks for finding a better place to collaborate on this work. Appreciated.

Deleted as requested

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@Amy - Just so there is no confusion. My comments relate to simplification of what we already have which is not the same thing that was originally proposed by Ewout. I support better organization and structure of the TM rules page(s). I don't support changing the rules and adding additional automatic licensing.

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Can you please be so kind to elaborate on the reasons for that? Your motives and thoughts are appreciated?

Leo

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Dave -

Here's a suggestion - let's pull automatic licensing out of the draft. And, let's assume that Ewout's "Policy" is nothing more than a scratch pad for us to use as we try to bang out what our rules are. It's not a Policy - it's just a working area.

Now - let's see if we can figure out what our rules are. To me, that's the best goal. Would that seem reasonable?

I'm going to put one item out here to see if we can define it:


Does that list represent the list of reserved names the project needs to protect?

Can we validate that? Then, we would have one good principle that would help clarify for people what OSM must protect and what they may not use as they consider how they will be allowed or not allowed to use the mark.

Forewarned is forearmed, right? Building a Web site and naming it JoomlaConnect only to find the project won't allow it tends to make folks unhappy - unless there is a list of rules first. Telling them up front - "we do not allow that" - means they have no excuse for doing it. We can say - you must read the rules! But we have to list the rules first.

So - let's pull automatic licensing OUT of the equation. Let's assume the document is not a policy but only a scratch pad for us to use. Fair enough everyone?

If so, the question to OSM and the project is this: is that list of reserved names Ewout defined complete? If not, what are the other names that the project must reserve for community use?

Thanks Dave. That helps.
Amy

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Maybe it's my age but I dont see where this is going any more.

There is no process (checklist) there is a process.
There needs to be use cases there doesnt need to be

There appears to be alot of people offering to work on this but there doesnt "appear" to be any willingness from OSM or the TM committee to participate.

Some leadership-type people are speaking with their hats on whilst others aren't.
Things can or can't be discussed because of legal privilege

It's all beginning to sound like its going around in circles with no aim or direction and is just becoming one of those topics that will suck up alot of time with no end result.

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Brian -

I think we are making progress. We can begin by simply defining the rules. That's a big step forward. And honestly, that's exactly what Ewout is trying to do.

From Ewout's work, I tried to take what I thought might be the easiest question to validate - and that is the list of Reserved Names.



We need OSM/the Project to verify that list - or to add additional reserved names that we might not be aware of. Let's respect that answering that question might take a bit of time. Let's remember, we are not in a hurry - we are all after the same goal - we all agree, it is important to clarify the rules for the community. So, let's assume everyone wants to do right here, and strictly focus our posts on identifying our rules.

OSM - Is that the list of reserved names? Are there other names the community is not allowed to use that we should add to that list?

Thank you.

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Brian -

I have been more than willing to participate. I will take your comments as meaning that my participation so far has been of no value. If my participation is determined to be of no value, I fail to see how my further participation will be seen as having any value.

And yes I feel now, especially that my genuine participation has been regarded as "nil", that my time has been absolutely wasted. I will waste no further time in this thread.

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Once again you chose to put words into my mouth.

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Enough! The moderators have been very patient with this thread. There are 6 reports on the appearance of people being attacked that we haven't taken action on as of yet. We really want to encourage discussion - we do not want personal exchanges to interfere with those discussions. I encourage Jenny to stay to participate in that aspect of this thread. Any further degeneration and in my "official" moderator hat, I will lock the thread.

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Couldn't quite follow all the different views in this thread, but it is nice to see that there are so many who recognize the importance of the decisions that might be made regarding TM, and are taking the time to make their point.

I certainly found Ewout's policy far clearer that what I read, probably a year ago, on the joomla site.

Because legalize is tough to digest, I did have trouble discerning whether an example was acceptable for automatic approval or not acceptable.

Even though it may be redundant, if Ewout's examples clearly stated "example of an acceptable use for automatic approval" or the opposite "example of a unacceptable use for automatic approval" instead of just "example" It would make the document easier to read at a glance and help clarify the legalize.

A third statement that would be helpful would be "example of a use that needs to be submitted for approval"

I know that some people are put off by "legalize" but I believe it is very similar to quality of code. We could certainly have someone get creative and write something in plain english that is also legal. But it's easier to stick to good legalize "coding" practises.

When you start getting creative with your coding practices, you start losing even the pros.

Regarding Dave's comment: I, too, would like to know what aspects of automatic approval need to be scaled back.

I personally feel the simpler and more straight forward the approval process is, the less anxiety for joomlans at large and and less of a stretch of joomlan volunteer resourses. Let's save the volunteer hours for bug squashing and fighting the good fight with those who ignore or discredit the accomodating nature of the new proposal.

Yikes... did I say "joomlans"... Is that currently allowed??? Please , please don't refer me to the current set of guidelines.

Cheers,
Jimbo

Ok folks -

This is now getting in the wrong direction and group and time pressure is raised on a topic that does not deserve that. Especially as I think we have a great initiative here which deserves a true chance to not die because of emotions, frustrations and all of these things which we had so many times already.


This is a process and initiative Ewout started and in terms of process he should be the one who is driving it. It is his job to enfource pressure if he feels it is needed. My personal impression is that he is quite happy with the outcome so far and that the next steps needed he is able to take. I would kindly ask anybody else from staying away of driving this process.


I have to agree that talking about these things on additional pages will not help at all. It will only add pages and consume valuable time from people doing other things. It is my understanding that all of you in this thread see Ewout and a responsible person from the project being in charge of coming up with a suggestion. Jennifer is the team lead of Trademark and Licensing and with that I think she is perfectly qualified representing the project and OSM.

I would like to ask everybody here in the thread to give Ewout and Jennifer some time. They started working together already and I'm sure they will come back to the community for more input. But first of all some of the topics raised here in the thread need to be discussed. And I truly belief that posting these things forward and backward here in the thread is not efficient time wise.

Now we have had great input, a lot of suggestions and I think some clarifications as well. I like to thank everybody for your input and I'm looking forward to see some new threads with the next steps, action items and comments. For the moment I would suggest we let this thread end here.

Kind regards

Alex

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Cool - that's sounds perfect, Alex.

Jenny and Ewout - if there is something I can do to help, please let me know.

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Thank you for answering my question alex

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Is it possible to get an update on the progress Ewout and Jenny should be (?) making as stipulated in Alex' post? This is an important issue for The Project and it has been very silent here and elsewhere?


Leo

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I am continuing to work on the new system and reorganizing the presentation to make it easier for people to understand, and easier to request use.

Anyone at anytime is free to contact me through the form on the OSM site, or through email at jennifer.marriott@community.joomla.org, or through PMs on this site.

As far as what I "should" be doing. I am doing what I "should" be doing which is working hard and contributing like I always do.

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Alex - You asked that we stop discussing this topic, and we did. Would you please let us know if this Alternative Trademark Policy proposal is still under consideration by the Leadership Team/OSM? Or, has this been set aside? Rather than having unnecessary concern and speculation (which is always far more interesting than boring reality) a straight forward status update on the proposal would be appreciated.

Jen - thanks for all you do and have done and will do. I know you work hard and it's much appreciated!

Amy

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refers to 10 days of process which in normal circumstances bears fruit when collaboration works. If you feel more comfortable with it feel free to read "might" instead of "should"

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Did I ask anything else?

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It is really interesting to see how people try to raise pressure and with that a wrong impression or opinion is created.

Folks I understood that this is important for you. But does this require sending three posts and emails to me? I'm person that hates to sent posts just to sent a post. So if I cannot say something about the status update I would not post. Does this mean we are not working on it, no.

As Jennifer said work is happening on the presentation. Still the ideas and suggestions made are discussed. Do we have a new proposal yet, no. Do we have we a final decision yet, no.

When will you be able to see my next status update - I have no clue. I would say when it is the right time. Will the right time be in a day or week - no. The document you suggested to change is one of the main documents related to this project. It took us quite some time to get it sorted out in first place.

With trying to be pushy at this topic you will not achieve anything except raising more emotions which are controversial to the topic. For me personally these kind of emotions do not help to get me motivated to work on this. Now think about how those feel that are responsible for this topic or have started the initiative. And again, those who are asking now for an update - this is not your initiative. Please don't take over ownership of something someone else started.

Kind regards

Alex

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As a guide, and going by past and present experience, a period of one to three months is not unusual for issues like this to be processed and the respective jigsaw pieces to fall into place (though this is a biggie so I would not be surprise if it took longer). You aren't going to get any definitive answer in 10 or so days - that's pretty unrealistic. If you haven't heard anything by May, then it's time to politely ask "how's it going?". Just remember this isn't the only issue on the table at any one point in time (there's this strange initiative called 1.6 which is sort of distracting a lot of people).

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Andrew -

Thanks for helping define an expectation with the "May" statement.

Please bear with my post, it's an attempt to say something out loud (in post form) that might be on the back of everyone's minds. I hope to articulate a thought, not be rude or pushy or disrespectful.

In all the years that I've been involved with Joomla!, there's been a tricky dynamic that, from my perspective, we have not been able to quite get our arms around and it gets into various Venn Diagram intersections of community, and how to involve people, and how not to pull progress off track or expect more of one another than is appropriate or helpful.

For purposes only of this question, I offer these temporary definitions - take nothing more from this meaning than is necessary:
1. The project - People on the inside of the project with decision making authority
2. The interested parties - People posting in this thread without decision-making authority who want to be involved in something.
3. The community - all of us who use Joomla! and are interested in the project's success.

This particular topic has been a tricky one for the community. It's obviously been important to implement the Trademark and more work than "the interested parties" can appreciate. It's also been a source of some frustration. So, "the interested parties" worked with Ewout on a proposal that we hoped we could work with "the project" on -- to see if it might work better for "the community."

If all things were perfect, it should be okay to initiate those discussions, but unfortunately, what happens is these proposals end up turning into arguments or stress points and people are pushy and aggressive and those carrying all the rocks are less-than-welcoming and defensive. The discussion gets locked or shut down or frequently no information is forthcoming. Then, people get frustrated that they are held at arms length from their project - and others get frustrated because they are constantly criticized and second-guessed.

I've been on both sides of this and I hope it's clear I'm not pointing fingers.

Now - hopefully, my post hasn't made anyone angry. I want to say that I don't have answers but I think we have a problem. Alex - your response is very accusatory. You are also not acknowledging how "the interested parties" feel about this topic and by shaming people for raising the topic again - you have discouraged more discussion (which is likely the goal) but you have inadvertently discouraged involvement, period.

Andrew - your response is much better but also in suggesting we wait until May - you are saying that "the interested parties" may not be involved in this. We must wait until others who have authority have time to do it on their own. Again, it's discouraging.

Now, 10 days was *way too soon* to bump this topic. But, why are we not able to work together, as a "community", in the open? And that is a failure of all of us - not "some" of us.

Like I said, I don't have the answers to this. I want us to find these answers, though, and I am willing to adapt to whatever policies or practices or group norms we need to help us get to the point where we can open a discussion, debate it, with people "in the project" and "interested parties", and split up the work to get it done. I assume and believe that's a goal we all have.

PERHAPS starting with the Trademark Policy isn't the best topic to practice these new skills. Seems like we might want to start with something a whole lot less passionate.

Anyway. Respect guys. Jennifer - again - thank you for your work for YEARS for Joomla!. And, Elin, for everything you do. Andrew and Alex - thanks for your response and for having a bit of thick skin as I responded to your comments. You guys are the backbone of Joomla! and I appreciate each of you.

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I'm sorry you find that discouraging but that's the way the cookie crumbles. I made no assertion about anything other than the fact that in "my experience", it takes a while (read "months") to make sense of these kinds of issues (and after that is takes on average six months to effect change). Disclaimer: I am not directly involved in discussing this topic at any level but I do know that it's not the only issue that those involved need to talk about. Quite frankly, if this issue isn't broached in a focused way till the later half of this year, I would not be displeased (I've got enough to worry about regarding production just at the moment).

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You are right. To be honest, Andrew, I don't really care about how long these things take, but that eventually, it will be nice if we are able to learn to get there together.

I've got plenty to occupy my time, as well.

Thanks, again!
Amy

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Alex, with all respect but I do not see that with asking a simple question on something which is close to my heart as a member of this community I am raising pressure. I do fail to see how a simple question about status can create a wrong impression.

That is rather bold and inaccurate and could trigger a similar aggressive response which I definitely won't since that would defocus from the topic.. It is not now nor in the future my intention to take ownership so do not make assumptions which are fairly besides the fact that as a Member of this Community I am entitled to ask questions I believe? Thanks!

@ Andrew,
Thanks for explaining more on your experience with these kind of processes in the Joomlasphere...Appreciated. 1.6 huh?

With respect
Leo

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Please refer to the forum rules as well as the forum agreement upon registration as to the rights you have as a member of this community. Similarly, I think many of our other sites that require membership agreements outline their terms and conditions.

It's up to you as to whether you're here to argue or rather here to contribute positively. Each time any of us post on this forum shows which option we've picked.

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Amy -



This is an interesting assumption you have Amy. My second sentence was:


I do acknowledge how the "interested parties" fell - but do you acknowledge how I feel if I get pushed and pressure is raised like it is done in the responses to my first post?

My intension is not discouraging discussion but guiding it. We can have a discussion with lots of people but this will not lead to anything - and specially if the discussion get's as personal and emotional as the one here in the forum.

You say we have a problem - I think you are right.
My personal view is that the problem are people which try to raise group pressure to achieve goals. And this was the reason why I invented and stated very clearly that I like all in the thread to give those directly involved time to come up with a plan. Jennifer has invited everything to participate on this goal as well.

Now involvement helps if it is focused on the topic. I personally still think that a small group can come up with a good next step and suggestion for the topic and in the best interest of the community. But does it help if people try to be pushy. No - Period.

/me wondering why this Period sounds so strong

A private comment.
In all good team meetings a moderator tries to separate critical topics and give smaller groups a chance to work out a solution. It is a best practice to come to a compromise for the parties. Why is it so hard for the interested people to trust and believe this is working out. We are not the UN that tries to get an agreement on climate change - and even they will come to a compromise at a time.

Alex

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I personally think this is depended on the way questions are asked, quoted and people are notified about the questions. As usual there is happening far more happening outside the forum than it is here in the forum. I agree just asking an open question without additional activities would not raise pressure. But still some people involved my feel it as pressure - this is something you always need to see as well. It might not be for you, but others are different in their senses.



Of course you are - and they are also welcome.

Cheers

Alex

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Alex (akede): Thank you for clarifying your earlier post, and clearing up any miss-understanding.

I would like to request that we all (as Alex previously requested) give those who are directly involved with the Trademark policies and procedures (and the suggestions for change), the space to work on this, without further direct or indirect pressure.

Jenny did invite anyone to contact her:

I think this thread should therefore be paused/hibernated until those involved in the TM process have new information to share.

This is to avoid further debate, on the same matters, that may at this point be less constructive to the process already under way.

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