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JacquesR
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:00 pm 
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@ kauselot: you post is out of order.

What you are hinting at is without basis and is slanderous. Seems like you are trying your best to get banned.

If you (or anyone else) do indeed have any evidence of any financial wrongdoing, you should forward it to myself or any of my fellow OSM board members to investigate, otherwise please refrain from miss-using this forum for personal attacks.

@ mcsmom: I do not think it's useful or appropriate for us to speculate about what may have caused problems in the past.

Let us look forward to ways that we can co-operate as a community, to make use of opportunities in a way that makes sense to the Joomla! project.

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Webdongle
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:31 pm 
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jconsultingza wrote:
@ kauselot: you post is out of order.

What you are hinting at is without basis and is slanderous. Seems like you are trying your best to get banned.
...

surely 'hinting at' by definition is not slanderous ? He may have 'hinted at' but did not state that was the case.

Also your threat to ban him for posting allegations that he has heard (and did not say applied to you) only adds fuel to the fire.
kauselot wrote:
.. Whether this aplies to organization you (elin)&andrew&louis have taken hostage - decide for yourself ..
In the UK we have a saying "If the cap fits ...". Your reaction of 'shooting the messenger' (rather than address the subject) does nothing but show that it is already a touchy subject for you.

No posts for nearly a year then suddenly you come out in attack of innuendo. That only shows that the poster hit a raw nerve with the post.

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Last edited by Webdongle on Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Jenny
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:36 pm 
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What Elin stated isn't speculation.

We were told exactly why our application was turned down in 2010. I was co-admin of the 2010 effort. It was determined that our community was not conducive to accepting students at the time because of the continuing and very public negativity, drama, and continuous attacks/badmouthing of both the Project as a whole, the code and the people involved in the project, including the very public attacks against Google representatives. I am sorry if this information is new to you, but as far as I know it was shared with the entirety of Leadership at the time.

I would say the best way to prevent such a perception of the project happening in the future is to do everything possible to condemn postings that personally attack others on our own sites (such as the post that was previously above).

Edit: thank you mods for removing that post.

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Last edited by Jenny on Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Webdongle
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:56 pm 
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Jenny wrote:
.....

I would say the best way to prevent such a perception of the project happening in the future is to do everything possible to condemn postings that personally attack others on our own sites such as the post above. ....

If you are referring to my post(it is above yours) it is not a personal attack but an observation.

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nikosdion
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:30 pm 
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So, the only way to be accepted at GSoC is to censor everything that doesn't make us look like a cheerful bunch and remove dissidents?! With all due respect, I don't think that creating an Orwellian dystopia is one of the core values of the Joomla! project.

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masterchief
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:41 pm 
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Ok, everyone, time to break out the Vitamin B tablets. I can't see the current line of discussion (though it's stretch to give it such dignity) is edifying to anyone. Might be time to lock the topic ... #justsaying

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Webdongle
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:48 pm 
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Why lock the topic ? Is it because you don't want the post made by kauselot discussed ?

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torkil
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:18 am 
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I don't really see how "four or five people outside the project" can possibly manage to create drama and a hostile environment at such a scale that Google should refuse to work with Joomla. Something is really wrong with that picture.

@Jen and Elin: Throwing blame at "external dissidents" and "a few bad eggs outside the projects" seems to be the recurring way of handling things here. Very few of you current and previous leaders or co-leaders in Joomla are actually taking responsibility and stepping up to the plate and saying, "you know what, I was lead on that job, so it's my bad". And that's not only in this case.

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JacquesR
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:09 am 
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@ Webdongle: It's clear what kauselot is alleging (without any basis). I also am not threatening him with anything, and I cannot ban anyone. (my comment related to his signature)

Webdongle wrote:
That only shows that the poster hit a raw nerve with the post.

Would you not respond if someone (who seems to have an axe to grind) accuses your organization of corruption? (see my invitation above)

It's not immediately obvious without clicking on the Moderators link above, but I'm the moderator for this forum section, and therefore my attempt to moderate here without deleting or locking things. (Since the Joomla People site launched last year, debates have mostly moved to that site)

@ Jenny: I'm not ignorant of anything, but your comments here are also inappropriate. (please PM me if honestly do not understand why)

@ all: there are no positives in playing the blame game, or washing our dirty linen here.

Those who are serious about helping with future Joomla! efforts for Code-in or GSOC should work with the Production Leadership Team to make it happen.
This might be an appropriate group for that: http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms

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Jenny
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:20 am 
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Torkil - No one is throwing blame. The project was told at the time that it was not a suitable environment for taking on students for exactly the reasons I stated above.

I was as shocked as anyone else when we were told the reason. I can see the reasoning behind it, but it doesn't make it any less sad for the project as a whole. Yes there is something really wrong, I don't think we agree on what it is that is wrong, and that is okay. We don't have to agree.

Webdongle - we posted at the same time. I was not referring to the post directly above mine (yours) I simply stated above. Anyone reading this thread (at the time) would be able to tell instantly which post I was talking about because it is so far over the line of common decency as to be crystal clear.

Edit: Thankfully the post has now been removed. Thank you mods.

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Last edited by Jenny on Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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mcsmom
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:33 am 
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I never would post speculation about a topic like this; I'm shocked that anyone would say that about me given my history. And as usual we as a project do not name and shame, which I think is a good policy. The people responsible know who they are.

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kauselot
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:10 am 
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Yeah, kill the messanger(s), he(they) is(are) guilty that the news are bad (or core is rotten).

@jconsultingza my signature refers to bans by core team (also refered to as plt) already at place. I'm sure you as a OSM member must be aware of them.

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Webdongle
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:35 pm 
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jconsultingza wrote:
...
Would you not respond if someone (who seems to have an axe to grind) accuses your organization of corruption? (see my invitation above)
....

If accused yes but not by trying to discredit the accuser. And if there was no direct allegation only innuendo, I would not shoot the messenger. I would ask for 'qualification' of the source an then explain how it was not true.

An analogy
I little child comes up to you and threatens you. Because it is a child and you sense no threat your reaction would be mild. If a 6 foot muscle bound man threaten you your reaction would be attack(or run) because it posed a threat. Similarly with allegations or innuendo. The strength of attack on the accuser/messenger can show how much of a threat is envisaged. And how weak the defender feels their defence is.

I must point out that I do not believe it to be true. But your reaction does your point of view no favours. Hope that explains what I meant.

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mariusvr
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:58 pm 
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Wow how quickly this thread has spun out into negative discussions due to kauselot unrelated negative feelings towards the PLT. The ony thing that kausealot achieves is to make the Joomla project look more negative and help to ruin any future chances of collaboration with Google.

Maybe we should ignore the "flame bait" of certain members and instead focus on how we make Joomla a more friendly place that can foster development.

Having mentored GCoS students before, I know how rewarding this experience can be for students. How about having a positive discussion on how to better our position for GCoS projects, instead of dwelling about the past and making rebuttals of assumptions that other people assumed about shooting messengers that accuse people of corruption (my head hurts just reading the posts on this thread).

GCoS is awesome, lets work on getting Joomla included into GCoS 2012

:) Marius

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Last edited by mariusvr on Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jenny
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:27 pm 
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Mentoring a student and being a part of GSoC truly was one of the best experiences I have had with the project. Any time that people take on the responsibility of helping others especially students, to learn and grow is a ++ for everyone involved. It is true that GSoC has been a wonderful opportunity for the project in the past and will hopefully be so again in the future. Well said Marius! :)

I agree the community's main focus should be on the future by learning the hard lessons from the past and doing our best to do better in the future.

I also agree with Andrew that creating an ongoing in house mentoring program would be very beneficial to the project. Last year's JSOP was a step in the right direction, and I take full responsibility for it not being as good as it could have been. It was a hard decision for me to make to step down from JSOP, and it greatly disappointed a lot of people that I let them down. Perhaps the idea behind JSOP can be taken forward in the future.

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Webdongle
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Jenny wrote:
Mentoring a student and being a part of GSoC truly was one of the best experiences I have had with the project. ...

That is positive, just a few questions
What are the requirements for a student ?
Is there an age limit to who may become a student ?
Is the mentoring done person to person or is it internet based as well ?

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Jenny
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:54 pm 
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You can find out more about the GSoC program here: http://code.google.com/soc/

You can find out more about last year's JSOP initiative here: http://developer.joomla.org/jsop-page.html

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Webdongle
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:02 pm 
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From those links, this looks interesting http://docs.joomla.org/Joomla!_Student_ ... ject_Ideas
But the last edit is nearly a year old ?
It does not mention if it is online or if there has to be other communication
I notice one of the mentors does live close to me
It does not mention time scales or the amount of time per day etc.
It mentions no real criteria etc. for 'students' like min - max age

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Jenny
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:20 pm 
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Webdongle wrote:
From those links, this looks interesting http://docs.joomla.org/Joomla!_Student_ ... ject_Ideas
But the last edit is nearly a year old ?

Correct - JSOP was an initiative from last year.
Webdongle wrote:
It does not mention if it is online or if there has to be other communication
I notice one of the mentors does live close to me

As with most online projects the communication was through online methods, there was nothing stopping people from meeting in person if they wanted to.
Webdongle wrote:
It does not mention time scales or the amount of time per day etc.

Time frames were mentioned on the very first page in a table time line. There was no specific time requirements per day. Just that the projects progress along the time frame of weeks/months given.
Webdongle wrote:
It mentions no real criteria etc. for 'students' like min - max age

The only criteria to be eligible to apply was to be a student enrolled in college or university.

Edit: The initiative got underway with this announcement of the projects and students that were selected to participate in our first attempt at getting this initiative underway. http://community.joomla.org/blogs/commu ... dents.html (thanks again to all of the students and mentors that participated)

Updates were made periodically by the students and mentors, but as I stepped down from assisting with that initiative shortly after that blog post, I don't have very much more information.

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Webdongle
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:04 pm 
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Jenny wrote:
......
Webdongle wrote:
It mentions no real criteria etc. for 'students' like min - max age

The only criteria to be eligible to apply was to be a student enrolled in college or university.

....

:'(

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JacquesR
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:26 pm 
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You are missing an important one:
Google Code-in: http://code.google.com/gci

That one is for younger students, but cover a wider range of topics, that could all be very useful to the Joomla project:

Quote:
Google Code-in, Google's contest to introduce pre-university students (age 13-18) to the many kinds of contributions that make open source software development possible, concluded on January 10, 2011. We had 361 students from 48 countries complete over 2,000 tasks during the 7 week contest. The tasks included:

1. Code: Tasks related to writing or refactoring code
2. Documentation: Tasks related to creating/editing documents
3. Outreach: Tasks related to community management and outreach/marketing
4. Quality Assurance: Tasks related to testing and ensuring code is of high quality
5. Research: Tasks related to studying a problem and recommending solutions
6. Training: Tasks related to helping others learn more
7. Translation: Tasks related to localization
8. User Interface: Tasks related to user experience research or user interface design and interaction

http://code.google.com/opensource/gci/2010-11/faqs.html
(all info from the last one)

Starts in November, so would need planning from mid-year. (Andrew referred to that in his post)

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masterchief
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:47 pm 
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jconsultingza wrote:
You are missing an important one:
Google Code-in: http://code.google.com/gci
Starts in November, so would need planning from mid-year. (Andrew referred to that in his post)
Yep, got reminders to flash in my face in August, and got some pretty cool ideas running around me head for it as well ;)

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masterchief
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:43 pm 
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So, just because we aren't doing something directly for GSOC, there is possibly an avenue for finding indirect benefits. Could a few people peruse this list:

http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/prog ... e/gsoc2011

See if there are any organisations that we could direct students to where there might be some spin-off benefit for the project. Thanks in advance.

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mcsmom
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:48 am 
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I think JSOP is a great idea, but we need to understand how much administrative work is involved. I will tell you that .... where I teach, running internship programs gets you extra duty pay and is still something that people get overwhelmed by if they do a good job. It's a complicated job (some of the things we've dealt with in the past are bad personality matches between mentors and students, health problems, having to decide what to do when students don't finish work).

I really echo those who have said how rewarding it is to do student mentoring for Joomla, both high school and college. I'm still in touch with a number of students I have worked with (not even counting Sam and Andrea), and I just recently wrote grad school letters of recommendation for one (he got in too!).

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mariusvr
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:27 am 
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I had two students to mentor for the "online translation facility" JSOP project in 2010. Unfortunately with no financial incentive for the students, "real life" took priority and no work was done by the students. At least with the GSoC project there was a 5000 USD carrot in front of their nose that ensured projects got completed.

Where there any projects completed in the first round of JSOP?

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mcsmom
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:30 am 
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Yes I believe two of the projects were completed.
One thing with student projects in general is that you have to expect that a percentage are not going to be completed. It's not just the financial incentive either. Like a lot of people, students start things that they do not finish either because their idea turned out to be harder than they thought, they get busy with other things, or for other reasons. Because many students are not as experienced they may be somewhat more prone to underestimating what it will take to finish or how hard a task is. Even with money in GSoC some projects are not finished.

Update:
By the way, here is the list of projects that Andrew and I (with help from people on the LTs) brainstormed for the Code in application. I think it might be good to put this list somewhere as a "getting started" list of ideas and also .... lots of colleges and universities, at least in the US, encourage or even require students to do independent studies or internships as part of their educations. Being willing to supervise those kinds of projects for useful core projects is really a good way to contribute.
http://docs.joomla.org/GCI_2010-11

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dubois
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:53 pm 
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it's all wasted time.

you guys should just launch a commercial Joomla Pro and start making money.
once you get the money you can hire full time devs, tech writers, translators, support.

the fact joomla is used in millions of sites but you can't even find 20-30 volunteers for the GsoC
says it all about what the J community is really all about.
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