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 Post subject: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:23 am 
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:23 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Bristol, UK
Hi,
I'm new to the forum - so please go easy when answering my question!  :-\

I personally LOVE Joomla. I've only been getting into it for about 2 months now, and I already love it.

Basically, I work for a new media company that develops an interface to Autonomy's IDOL Server (http://www.autonomy.com).
We have found, in our experience, that large corporates don't really like to host anything that isn't "stable" (in their minds) in terms of language support etc. In other words, we don't develop our app in PHP, because they won't work with it. This is fine by me, as Java is my real comfort zone :)

Please note, at this point, that I DO NOT want to get into a PHP vs JSP/Java debate here.

What I want to know is, am I allowed to port Joomla to Java/JSP? I see no reason why it wouldn't work, and there are lots of benefits, including impacting a wider and more diverse market of potential users. I know there's no driving desire to make Joomla a corporate tool, but it totally has the capability to be.

If anyone thinks this would be a really bad idea, I'd be interested to know why. Otherwise, I've already started on the installation process.

Cheers,
Nathan T


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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:32 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:06 pm
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Porting Joomla! to a pure Java environment is not something we will do. But your suggestion is interesting in another way. As you probably noticed we had a project called J!Explorer in the Summer of Code (http://dev.joomla.org/content/view/1552/92/). This in fact is a 100% java framework that can hold add-ons that actually do exact the same as Joomla!

It would be very interesting to add more logic into this framework, so maybe we can hook you up with the developer.

I am very curious what you mean with "We have found, in our experience, that large corporates don't really like to host anything that isn't "stable" (in their minds) in terms of language support etc. In other words, we don't develop our app in PHP, because they won't work with it". PHP is a very mature environment, that offers great support in almost all languages on the globe, has an enourmous community supporting and using it...


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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:51 am 
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:23 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Bristol, UK
Hey, thanks for the reply. Sounds good...I"m interested to know how the progress goes on this.

What I mean't by the "large corporates" thing, is out of our own personal experience. One of our products is actually a Content Management System called e-CHO. It was a requirement when this was developed that it be done in ASP or JSP. The original version was written in PERL and our customers won't even host that now.

There is a general view among our customers that Java is a secure, stable language with a stable API that's backwards compatible. It does tend to be a bit memory hungry, but it has a great reputation. Conversely, our customers will not host something like PHP, because it's sometimes seen to them as being a "hackers language". I'm NOT saying that I agree with this, but you seemed curious, so I thought I'd explain what I've heard on the subject is all.

I'm definitely NOT saying "Jack in PHP, head towards Java" either, to make that clear. Finding a host for PHP is soooooo much easier than JSPs. I guess I just thought the challenge of porting it to Java would be a good one, and may even draw the interest of larger corporations.

NT


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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:51 am 
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Joomla! Guru
Joomla! Guru

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:17 am
Posts: 741
zend got lots BIG company partner ..
http://www.zend.com/partners/strategic_partners

it was hackers language ... but .. I believe it's getting better ..  ;D
get him some credits .. it's a NEW language ... well .. compare w/ others .. still got potential ...

I love java ... but I end up coding w/ php ...  :'(
then I figure out I love both language ..

Quote:
Zend and Sun created a new Java Specification (JSR-223) to allow PHP web scripting to integrate tightly with Java.

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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:42 am 
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Joomla! Enthusiast
Joomla! Enthusiast

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:50 am
Posts: 207
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
PHP or JSP are just programming languages and they are becoming more and more similar to each other, and I don't think switching from one to another is really an improvement. Java is great, so is is the LAMP stack. Yahoo offers services such as Flickr using the LAMP hosting millions of users. Yahoo is a major corporation the last time I checked.

In terms of corporate mind-set regarding stability of LAMP or Java, Rubi, or ... it is just the matter of time for them to wake up and smell the coffee. It is the Software Architecture that matters. PHP, or Java are just the material to build an elaborate structure.

Rastin
 

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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:26 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:34 pm
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I think it would be great if someone ported Joomla to JSP. I dont believe anything in the license precludes this? The JSP version just has to be GPL as well.

Chuck

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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:30 pm 
Joomla! Fledgling
Joomla! Fledgling

Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 9:23 pm
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Hello Im happy to annouce that we have been working to port Joomla PHP into JAVA / J2EE architecture, we are now developing this and we will release it under the name MELENTI.ORG . This will be a full JAVA JOOMLA , same approach , same easy way to install (after the java servers are set up of course) and templates will work as simple as in Joomla just CSS and DIVS, will be able to connect to any DB with HIBERNATE , also we are developing a dreamweaver and Eclipse plugin for the developers. We wil be releasing this project in 9 months because we need help now to develop this.

We invite anyone who want to help in this project to visit our web site in http://www.melenti.org soon we will have a download area were you will be able to download the sources .


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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:23 am 
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Have you considered using something like Quercus (http://quercus.caucho.com/) to handle things instead of a full port?

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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:17 pm 
Joomla! Fledgling
Joomla! Fledgling

Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 9:23 pm
Posts: 3
Hello Sam,

yes we already evaluated this but stability there its an issue and also scalability its a problem when you have lots of java servers and most large and medium companies have an application server, db server and they cannot use Quercus.

We are porting application with some changes to joomla for example the ability to create UNLIMITED subcategories for a categorie, the ability to use SINGLE SIGN ON on most Application servers and many more features that im sure will be very used. In all instances Joomla will be mentioned in this project as we are using all the hard work you have invested in this.

If you would like to tal we can chat in skype just let me know if joomla team its interested in this project.

Goodbe

Adrian Cadena
Melenti Project


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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 1:52 pm 
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Joomla! Guru
Joomla! Guru

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:06 pm
Posts: 764
Location: Netherlands
What interests me is why you want to re-write what already is there, instead of help out improving Joomla! and implement some missing features. Can you tell me your motivation of doing a re-write?

Thanks in advance, Wilco


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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 2:33 pm 
Joomla! Fledgling
Joomla! Fledgling

Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 9:23 pm
Posts: 3
Hello Wilco,

Well its not that I dont want to help improving joomla I use joomla to develop 90% of my websites im a web developer as well as a designer so I know how great joomla is. The thing is im in Ecuador South America , everybody, govenmnet, corporations and more does not trust PHP , because of scalability coding etc, another interesting fact its that they have so many Data bases types like oracle, Postgres, Sybase, MSQL and more and they wqant a system that has an entire independent database tier.

I really love joomla and i have used it to make some govenrment portals here in my country as well as many many commercial sites. Your job its amazing, we are close to laucn some components for Joomla 1.5 and Joomla 1.0.x opensource of course of a grat image gallery and LDAP components for Lotus domino and Active directory.


We also organized the first JOOMLA CAFE in ecuador with the http://www.joomlaspanish.com owner support in 3 simultanius cities (quito, guayaquil, cuenca )the biggest in our country about 150 people attended to the event in each city so we are helping joomla to grow here, i actually own a site http://www.joomla.com.ec and we are working with the government of Ecuador to create http://www.joomla.org.ec Please dont think that we do not appreciate joomla its just our market and many markets around latin america needs a CMS in java J2EE an opensorce one .

We are thinking of creating a java version of joomla because the wolrd its awaiting something like this, you can use magnolia, Alfresco and many other but thay are really hard to install, very hard to use and maintain so aour aim its to simplify things we will be helping Joomla comunity .

If we could talk on skype I would love this my id : adriancadena

Hope we can chat a little so you understand better.

Regards

Adrian Cadena
Melenti Project


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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:28 am 
Joomla! Fledgling
Joomla! Fledgling

Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:53 am
Posts: 2
Will be great to have a full Joomla version in Java ! Personally, i like more java /c# as languages because, is more comfortable to program in that languages, and i like the support for tools like NetBeans or Eclipse.

Dont misunderstand me, i love the PHP simplicity and the great community support, but as language itself, i dont like the syntax, globals functions and im not comfortable with the OO sytanx as well, even mention i have to manage all those globals variables.

I believe, the Joomla architecture is fantastic, the community support, the simplicity, thats why is so popular. A java version will be even more greater.


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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:26 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:27 am
Posts: 1318
Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Both NetBeans and Eclipse work with PHP. Joomla! 1.5 doesn't particularly feature many global variables, those that do exist is only for legacy support.

The power in Joomla! is the third party extensions that come with it. Short of porting them all to Java as well or putting in an interpreter layer for them (Querecus?) we're not going to be that efficient and at the end of the day Joomla! in Java wouldn't be Joomla! any more - it'd be something else.

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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:38 pm 
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Joomla! Guru
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Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:33 pm
Posts: 725
Location: Fortaleza, CE - Brasil
I don't really get all the reluctance... ???
Joomla is the best PHP tool I ever knew about and having something even close to that in Java would be no more than another really great resource for developers worldwide. I love PHP as well as Java and no one can deny that both has their very unique amazing features.
My J2EE skills are somewhat rusty but I would love to have the opportunity to try out making a full Java + Joomla website, even thought I don't see myself letting go of PHP proggraming...

Cheers

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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:59 pm 
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Posts: 1318
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There are wonderful native Java CMS' out there on the market though not all of them have the same level of extension support as Joomla! as PHP has a much easier learning curve than Java.

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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:17 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:33 pm
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Location: Fortaleza, CE - Brasil
pasamio wrote:
There are wonderful native Java CMS' out there on the market though not all of them have the same level of extension support as Joomla! as PHP has a much easier learning curve than Java.
The huge amount of PHP extensions out there is a good thing, but it's not what makes Joomla a good tool for developers. The framework itself, which allows me to easily create just any kind of application I need is one of the top reasons I like Joomla. Existing extensions can be good reference for developers but, as a developer, I don't see any loss to a Java Joomla that doesn't have them. It could be a small problem to non-experienced developers, but not a real challenge. Maybe it would be a huge problem for site administrators that can't code, but then, wouldn't a Java Joomla primary audience be developers that can't use PHP? And for those that like features that the current PHP Joomla has and wouldn't be able to switch to Java Joomla so easily, wouldn't they just have to keep using PHP Joomla?

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Técnico de Tecnologia da Informação - Desenvolvedor Joomla!
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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:10 am 
Joomla! Fledgling
Joomla! Fledgling

Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:38 am
Posts: 1
I agree with everyone who thinks it is important to have a joomla in Java so it can cover the client and web components of the J2EE architecture. I was seeking for this joomla solution from the scratch and not because I just read about. Then I found this forum. Thank you all for your enlightment and I hope someone can get going on this project. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:53 pm 
Joomla! Fledgling
Joomla! Fledgling

Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:04 pm
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I would like to stress the fact that a Java port of Joomla would be a great achievement for the OSS community.

I know I'm probably going to start a Java vs. PHP debate, but there are things that PHP (actually) doesn't handle, at least natively. While many Java-based frameworks do it very well.

To me, the first thing to mention is that the lifecycle of an "application" in PHP exactly matches the duration of the http request invoking it. This results in a lot of redundant work the PHP engine has to perform in order to mime application-, session-, and page-wide data instances. Not even to mention "compiling" the code in the "stock", free runtime: the zend engine of course uses some kind of JIT compilation, but nevertheless it has to waste a lot of cpu cycles and disk accesses in looking for any (improbable yet possible) change in the actual source tree.

The net result is that PHP doesn't scale well or, at least, it doesn't do that the way other frameworks do: the CPU and memory usage needed to run a PHP site almost doubles if the number of parallel, outstanding http requests doubles. On the contrary, the memory and cpu requirements in Tomcat follow a far smoother curve (close to be logaritmic), allowing a single computer to far better average performances.

Another point causing large enterprises to dislike PHP-based applications is that most of the time they offer the neck to security issues and are difficult to deploy in a clustered environment. Most PHP-based web application (like Joomla, in example) merge together the code with the static data with the configuration files, while part of the data and configuration is in database tables. This mix is inelegant at best. In a clustered environment it means you can't simply share a read-only code and a read/write database among the nodes running the application. Worse, mixing code with data in the same read/write filesystem hierarchy can easily yield security leaks. On the contrary, some Java-based web frameworks (JBoss, in example), not only allow for clustering an application by simply deploying it on more units, but also provide means to keep shared ojects "in sync" between nodes (i.e.: you don't need a DB or a file to share data between the nodes).

In summary, the reasons large projects do prefer Java, Tomcat and friends is mainly because of scalability and security.

On the other hand there is the fact that it is difficult for a Tomcat-based Joomla! clone to succeed the way Joomla! did. This is mostly because Tomcat is not for the faint of heart: developing a lucid and effective piece of code often means you are a quite specialized programmer, which often means you are not that good at other things like, in example, graphic design. You probably belong to a team, then. There are far less Tomcat development teams than the large numbers of "lone wolfs" who made Joomla! so actractive by developing and releasing their own (often dirty) plugin. Not even to mention that the number of teams releasing their work for free are even less, because more people -> higher project costs -> less headroom for free initiatives...

Finally, the user base. If you publish a Tomcat-based site, you probably run your own web server(s): it is not that easy for a WSP to support all the flavors and libraries and frameworks users may need in their applications. Instead, you may run your Joomla! site from almost every WSP supplying a PHP-based virtual host. A much wider user-base for the original Joomla!, then.


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 Post subject: Re: Java based Joomla
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:37 pm 
Joomla! Fledgling
Joomla! Fledgling

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:32 pm
Posts: 1
Is is possible at this moment to develop components in java for joomla, or do they have to be written in PHP? I mean, is there some bridge such that I can write my component - or part of it - in java, and have it work in joomla?


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