Joomla! Discussion Forums

more edits:
Given the fantastic amount of help Ive got on this disregard my initial thoughts and read the end  
What's tpo say except thanks to all those who convinced me Im wrong 

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Having been back and forwards between joomla.fr and here I can't see anytihng except documentation for the now apparently redundant patTemplate?  From what I can see Joomla 1.5 seems to have been designed for 3rd party commercial template vendors or people who do nothing but design templates and have access to the documentation? 

I guess I'll deinstall 1.5 and stick with 1.1.x until I find a CMS for non programmers but this seems to somehow defeat the object of a CMS...??

Still I guess the 3rd party template designers will get rich off this...it just seems a shame that an opensource project is being run to the demands of the commercial designers but it appears unless someone documents the API that the Joomla world will be split into those who use other peoples templates and those who write them and that the idea of people writing their own templates without programming knowedge will be stuck in 1.0.11.

So we get 'easier' backend and stuff.... but it appears we loose the ability to make our own templates once the backwards compatibility is dropped, seems like a dead end to me. 

Hi,
I just installed 1.5, no probs and everything is working great with the default template. 
However what I can't find (and I guess Im just not loking in the right place) is any idiots documentation on creating templates. 

Back in 1.1x I just took templates and modified them to do what I wanted, usually not so elegantly but it worked and then to make a template from scratch I just took my changes and started from scratch adding stuff into tables etc. 

Not elegant but it works....
So I started with the default 1.5 template .. trying to learn the same way I learned to make templetes with 1.1.x and I am completely lost. 
I don't want to use legacy, I want to work out how to write templates for 1.5. 

eg (and I realise I'm no programmer.... I just hack what's available and learn from that)
To me I now understand enough to write crappy templetes ... sure they might not be as flexible as a pro but at least I can do it... so I look at the default templete for 1.5 .... and I'm totally lost...
I installed it to get up to speed and be ready to convert my own templates... mostly for friends who use my server to host for free... but Im completely lost....
Where is the documentation for the API... ?? I never really needed it for 1.1.x because its so simple but Im looking at 1.5 now and thinking I'll never be able to write my own templates for it.... I don't even know where to start.

Feel free to laugh at my crappy programming but here is a fragment

The developers made it even easier to create templates in 1.5.  You don't even have to know any PHP.  The default template maybe a little confusing for you.  Maybe they can include an extremely simple training template as well when they release 1.5.

As for the documentation, of course there isn't any.  The code for 1.5 hasn't even been finalized yet.  It's still in beta.

Well a little confusing is perhaps an understatement but equally perhaps the default theme is overly complex?  I don't see why it should be, I mean its a nice looking theme and all but its not doing anything particularly "clever" (unless its hidden or Im to dumb to see it)

The thing is Im not a web programmer, I hadn't even used php until I started with Joomla and my HTML skills are basic at best.  My design skills are pretty much what looks OK for me but I can't sit and code a page without looking at it so I use a GUI prototyper to place things on the page.  Indeed this is the reason I got to using Joomla. 

However... from day 1 it was simple to understand what was happening.. it takes a while to get used to the lingo but the sample data sorts that out...

Most of what I have learned and achieved has been done with very simple tools (mainly text editors) and even just using NVU to prottype the page as html and then add Joomla components into my table spaces and add the necassary php which I learned as I went along and not doing this too frequently I tend to have to relearn half of what I do unless I document thoroughly...

Only last week I showed a Joomla site of mine to a friend who is a professional web designer and codes his own CMS ...
I was pretty happy with the site... I managed to get it doing what I wanted for another friend in no-time ...his comment was it must have taken forever with 3 languages and components etc. 
Not at all.....

But looking at the only 1.5 template I can find I'm utterly lost. 
I can probably hack the parts I need for a very simple page but I can't see how to make a 'nice looking' template of my own.
Are any other (simple) templates available?  The css has seeminly endless classes defined and the only way to refer to them using div: ??

Im the first to admit my templates are probably messy and could use better classing with css but so far I don't see any other way to define pagelayout in terms of positioning in 1.5 other than using css classes.?

It seems to me that with the old loadmodule anyone could design a template...No experience necassary ... (I certainly managed) but quite how a n00b is going to learn to write their own templates in 1.5 is beyond me....

I had figured that once I'd written some templates then try some more complex stuff like modules .... but its looking like only pro's are going to be able to make templates that look good in 1.5... and the community will split into users and developers  and those who don't have time to learn what is probably a more technically correct  method of making templates will just end up using other peoples? 

I'm dissapointed that u seem to think we don't have any documentation available on the 1.5 template system to give commercial advantage to 3P  template vendors. If that would be the case I wouldn't be willing to be part of this project. Joomla! is for everyone. The reason this information isn't yet out there is simply because we haven't had the time to create it.

Joomla! 1.5 is a first beta to be used for testing and feedback. We have received feedback from template designers (both commercial and non-commercial) about the changes in the template system and have made modifications to it, one of them was the removal of patTemplate as I already explained on the forums.

Coding, fixing bugs and writing documentation don't go very well together, expecially when the system is still in flux. I'm currently working on documentation about the template system. All I can say is that it is coming and will be avaialble for everyone.

Have fun testing 1.5, and if u have further questions about the template system I'm happy to answer them. Some information can already be found in the following forum post. : http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg535479

Fair enough.... I'm happy to take your word on that ... however my "position" is I would guess not unique. 

Firstly I think I got the wrong impression so I should probably apologise over that but I have to say I got that impression from reading everrything I could both here and the French forums which for some reason seem to have at least as much info as the main site?  Lucky I read French  

I should probably say that Joomla is awesome.... and that a whole load of Kudos goes to you and the other developers...
Seriously man its awesome .... and you guys are doing a great job giving your time to this...

Anyway, I hate wasting your time but I have some thoughts to share... if you can take time to read them perhaps I have a point, perhaps not? 

What I think is "missing" a little is the bridge between the devels and the users ... not all users but those who want to do more than just use pre-made stuff but lack the talents and experience you guys have in the real nitty gritty. 

It occurs to me anyone with my level of experience following the same links I did would arrive at a similar perception... and specifically it was the parts about the patTemplate being dropped after .. this gives me the impression that commercial designers are exerting pressure on the project...
Perhaps it needs to be? 

This itself is augmented by my experiences trying to find FREE templates, in many ways (1.0.x included) there seems to be far more in the way of commercial templates than GPL'd..  or other liscence?  and even the free ones given away by commercial companies all to often mean registering on their sites ...

I very much doubt this is the intention and equally you guys need to EAT.... its not a big critique but i think its something you might consider? 

I think what I'm saying is there are 3 types of Joomlites (if we can call the community that)
There are the "just want to use it" types at one end and fair enough... Joomla does a great job for them. 
At the other end are you guys....(where is the we are not worthy emoticon when you need it)

... and in the middle you have people who wanna get involved but time, talent, experience or whatever stops them being a core devel ...?

I put myself into this middle group for all the above reasons  

However I personally would be more than happy to give away my templates and then graduate as far as modules or components and if I can make my own from scratch then anyone can.  (seriously)

I didn't need any documentation at all for Joomla <1.5 ... I didn't know much html, I'd never made anything with a stylesheet and I'd never used php ....and yet i took apart a few templates in text editors and viola...

Why do I think this is important?
Well I did a website for a friend who is seriously computer illiterate ... this might be hard to believe but he had not used a computer ever until a month ago.... (yeah I said it was hard to beleive) but he's an artist, usually has no money and until recently no phone... (well being honest he'd managed to create a hotmail account from a internet cafe but I don't think he's touched a keyboard more than a few times ever)...

So I set him up a website and being an artist it makes sense to use one of his paintings ... and artists are a little touchy over things like making it fit into a pre-defined box... "You can't cut off the bottom man.. it kills the painting" ...
OK cool so we take a simple template I had sat round and change it about a bit so it fits his painting geometry... 
Edit the css to use the colors from his painting etc.  and stick in Joom!Fish to have it in 3 langs... 

OK so I am lacking experience to write something as awesome as Joom!Fish .. I'm just a dumb user but I can do my own templates ... and with a bit of experience perhaps I can graduate to writing components or modules someday? 

This is a large part of what is so AWESOME about Joomla to me....a complete noob like me can with almost no experience and without needing any manual write my own templates.  I started just editing other peoples or more accurately just replacing images and then editing the layout and then creating from scratch.... and all of this without any need for documentation except other peoples code. 



Absolutely, programmers usually make lousy documentation writers   (I cut the rest off because this stands up all by itself)  Its because (as Im sure your aware) you can't forget what you know is happening behind the scenes...

Personally almost every Opensource app I use has lousy to missing documentation   (if you exclude source as documentation) and the only ones with excellent documentation tend to be commerical ...where they can pay for a non programmer to write the documentation (mysql or postgres for instance but there are lots of other commercial GPL applications)  Equally this hasn't stopped me (or thousands of others) developing my own themes for KDE etc.  just by using example...sure there are real stars who write amazing themes but I can still do my own by copying the simple ones... written by people like me. 

I can see the same thing with Joomla templates.... sure there are some excellent designers rhuk's contribs are excellent visually but not something a n00b like me can discect and learn from and I think the continued success of Joomla is dependent to a large extent on contributions from people with far less talent and experience submitting simple templates others can understand. 

Anyway, thats my impression as someone who classes themselves somewhere between a n00b and you guys...
I understand its a beta but how can I make my contribution in the testing phase if I can't understand how to do things at my level...
Sure I can check out the backend and interfaces .. try some components and all but then Im probably not the best person to be testing this since I'm too experienced, just like you guys are to document .... the best people to test this IMHO are those  who are complete n00bs and don't modify the code at all because once you start you loose the ability to put yourself in a complete n00bs shoes. 

 

The templating system from 1.5 isn't much different from 1.0.x.

  changed to
changed to $this->template
changed to
changed to

Those are basically all the changes you need to know to create a simple template in 1.5. 

You don't even have to download a Joomla specific template.  You can download any free template out there and it shouldn't be too hard to modify for Joomla.  It's just as easy as 1.0.X but personally I think it's even easier.  If you were able to create a template for 1.0.X, you really should have no problems creating one for 1.5.

Jinx...

Very good  

I think a big assumption you are making is that there is some secret documentation somewhere . As a "template vendor" I see the same stuff you do. I have made some tutorials for 1.0 and intend to do the same for 1.5. This takes time though both the pure act of writing it and also waiting for the codebase to settle.

I would say that 1.5 might be a little bit more complex than 1.0, but its also much much more powerful. We can't have both

First off great looking templates (I just had a look...)
I guess what I really mean is that you guys doing this full time are just more in the loop. 
I need to re-look at the 1.5 template... but it sure looks complex to me...but I don't do this for a living...

I think what Im trying to say is that the major plus for Joomla for me was a complete n00b with no web coding experience could make templates with just a bit of reading and trial and error...
I doubt I could ever create beautiful creations like yours regardless of practice because you simply have a better eye for the design...than I will ever have but what I liked is I could reach for the sky and try. 

Its just IMVHO but I think that the creating templates shouldn't be something that relies on technical skills but that anyone with half a brain can try.  Sure commercial templates have a place because people like me (and the majority) simply don't have the artistic ability you have to start off but the barriers to people making their own shouldn't be technical...

Isn't that the whole idea? 

I'm glad someone agrees the new templates for 1.5 are a bit more complex seriously I was starting to think I'm finally too old... (is it just me finds this complex syndrome)  ....

On power vs complexity.....
Yes?  No ? Maybe? 
hard to say I mean.....

Im not going to argue the toss because one look at your templates tells me you know far more than I do about Joomla!
but at the same time... let me put it this way...

Joomla is already pretty powerful without being very complex at different levels...
Perhaps the only way forwards is more complexity.... at a lower level?  but my point is that the minimum of complexity at each level is better. 
Right now someone at my level (however that's classed) can make decent looking templates with a minimum of tools (Im just using text editors) .. I don't even own Windows so no professional tools like dream* and flash* etc. 
but right now anyone with wordpad/vi can create a templete with minimal experience and skills... and graduate onto more complex classes like compenents or modules ??

If this gets more complex then some people will not be able to... and with each step of extra complexity it e3xcludes more people...

Perhaps something that could be considered is that "legacy" mode is called "simple mode" ?  And not dropped from the codebase later on? 
Yes I realise that means a more complex layer for devels... but

In the end its not like its preventing me buying templates... If I had a client wanted a professional template I'd look to you pro's...

As a member of the developer documentation team, it is sometimes difficult to approach things from a new user, new coder, new whatever perspective...

I'm not a graphic designer.  I'm not a professional coder (I don't even work in the computer industry, but I do have a background...).

I've created a template that was basically a rework of the standard template.  It didn't seem that complex.

You mention a simple mode...  what would that look like?

What particular aspects of the new system are you having difficulty with?

Perhaps you could help us either improve the system or improve the documentation by taking a look at the templates\rhuk_milkyway\index.php file and letting us know what things you find difficult?  Or are the hard things with another part?

It all seems pretty straightforward to me, but then I spend more time working with it...

Your feedback would be appreciated.

Ian

Absolutely, and to be honest I'm glad some devs are taking this seriously enough to ask.   
I have a history too part of which is designing scientific software... ( a long time ago now, heck the internet was hardly much outside ARPANET when I was coding) but my professional experience is largely scientific not programming...however I have been part on the periphery all the time so lots of stuff I do is best described as hacking; if only the word hadn't been hijacked and misappropriated by the press! 


Cool .. so other than your presumed more extensive knowledge of Joomla we are probably not too different ....  or at least on the same pages.  What I m saying is I guess you realise that being part of the dev team obviously changes your perspective....because you can't forget what you know to put yourself back in a n00b's shoes ...

:D  exactly, isn't that always the way  

I already stated my knowledge of HTML but perhaps you think I'm being a little self-deprecating  but let me sorta explain that so you understand my comments. 
I actually missed the Internet explosion.. (no keep reading its true) because I spent most of the 90's in the 3rd world without even a telephone.  (to put that in perspective... mostly without running water) so one day Im using BBS's and then coming back to "civilisation" to visit family etc. and everyones talking about "The Internet"... 

So by the time I get back the whole consumer Internet had already exploded.... (Im guessing your somewhat younger than I am) but basically I got back and it was like a huge city had been built in my absence ... people were already buying and selling, making home pages and such and people were learning HTML in school..(basically when I left I was working on old mini's like VAX and Compaq just released the PC bus 'for the future' EISA for the 386). so by the time I jumped in HTML was already in whatever incarnation and Netscape and IE locked in a standards battle.  I just reviewed a little what/where I learned so it seems I actually had a good look at HTML2 and completely missed HTML3.2 .. so I must have skipped over (It happens when you spend a lot of your life in jungles and deserts) and returned I guess with HTML4

What does this mean?  I dunno exactly except to past a code fragment that I find confusing from rhuk_milkyway
the problem is I just highlighted what was confusing me and I feel like a idiot because its basically most of it....



My main lack of understanding is everything is formatted in nested (I dunno I didn't count) times...
From my simplistic view point I can't actually visualise at all how this will render. 

I get parts of the code like
For example this is pretty simple ... until the style="-1"
 
I don't see any style defined as "-1" ?  (Yep I realise its my ignorance but its hard to actually understand because I just don't understand the whole code fragment .. i.e the function of this is obvious but I simply can't get my head around the levels of nested div's.... if I hadn't actually seen the template being used I would have no idea how it would look ...

I can see the tabledef's and I can visualise how they look.... if they were isolated from the whole but I honestly can't see how the page will render... I've no idea how anyone actually writes code like that to be honest...

I have a pretty visual mind.. but looking at that code I have no idea how it will look rendered except the tables defined within it.... I can't imagine sitting down with a text editor and writing that but just to give an example, I spent a lot of my professional  life writing computer modelling and visualisation... and in most cases Ive worked with in visualisation I pretty much have an idea how a series of complex mathematical models are going to look from knowledge of the algorithms and input variables. 

So I just pasted the code into a GUI editor ... and I honestly still don't get it... all I see is a load of DIV's....
Further when I look at the css I see completely unintelligible stuff to me...

Code:

div, p, table, td, th {
   font-family: Tahoma,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;
   line-height: 1.3em;
   font-size: 1em;
   color: #333;

I just don't get the color: #333; part... (Again probably my ignorance but I have no idea what #333 looks like? ) Im just guessing but it must be "nearly black? and Im again guessing that it will be interpreted as #030303) whereas #030303 tells me straight away its "nearly black" in sRGB space, I don't have to even think ...


For example here is what I see in NVU for milkyway

Whereas I happen to have an open template ...Im working on open

OK.... I realise this isn't pretty... (its not even finished but its unlikely to be pretty code even when I finish)
but I can pretty much visualise what it will look like just by looking at it in a text editor. 

Code:

ooos too many characters to post... and need to do some work so... cut for now

Like I said not pretty code .... but its something anyone could write themselves in a text editor and then run it through a validator (not done yet)

Perhaps the milkyway template is far more elegant code... but looking at it in a text editor just doesn't tell me how it will look... and even viewing it in NVU hasn't really helped...

To save awful quote a short sentence only:

What about creating a pure HTML file first to see how design looks alike and introduce Joomla!'s functionality than?

I'm also no designer and follow this approach in most cases to save time.

diri....
This is exactly what I do.... I start off and code and stick text like user1_here then go through and paste the php over the top of the text. 
Im starting to think I should change the title of the thread to is rhuk_milkyway an approriate templete for people to start working out how to write a 1.5 template  
So perhaps the idea would be to introduce that NOW as opposed to later.... ??  That way perhaps it looks less intimidating ... call it simple template for training or something? 
Otherwise I kinda feel people like myself (and Im guessing diri) are going to find it hard going evaluating if its the milkyway template causing confusion or the new templating system? 

Ongoing if anyone knows of any FREE simple 1.5 templates please post a link   I don't object to paying for templates... btw its just if all you want to do is learn then a free download is better since you can't exactly tell HOW its coded from looking at the thumnail (or even full screen )

slord,

you must be aware of a fact which is true for any templating system:
The more freedom is given by system being used the more knowledge is needed to use it in extend. There's also nothing like a free ride when one wants to use such a system - there's always a learning curve.

Wether you choose to learn for yourself or let a programmer implent your design is up to you. Best tool is of no use for you when you don't want to learn how to use it.

AFAIR there's a sentence in English language reflecting the situation (no offence intended, just a joke!):
A well equipped fool is still a fool.

A couple of things...

it sounds like what you are having trouble with isn't the Joomla! framework for templates (Which have had minor changes) per se, but rather the change from tables to divs...

divs are really just containers that can be used to put other code in.  This shift has been made because tables were never really intended for layout purposes - they were meant to represent tables of data.  This has in the past resulted in really really really nested tables which is possibly more confusing than the divs that you see.

There are a number of nested divs in the milkyway template because these are necessary to do rounded corners.  If nobody else replies I will take a template and simplify it when I get a chance.  It really isn't that complicated - promise!

What you will see with a lot of the div takes you see is that an id is specified with it.  Then in the css file you will see an entry that looks like div#id - for example, you will see a div tag div id="wrapper_r", and then in the css an entry div#wrapper_r.  This css entry will specify a background image for the div tag.  In this case, this is the image for the right side with a bit of a shadow.

You really want to look at the milkyway file starting with the div id="header" element.  On this level, it is a horizontal walk down the page...

What I mean by this is that you have your header with its associated stuff, then you have the tabarea which is where you have the top menu (called the pill menu because it looks like a pill).

Then you have the search...  if you look at the div#search you will see a specification float:right...  this means it will go to the right of its container...

Then you have the pathway...

Then you have a div with class clr.  If you look in the css file, you will see an entry .clr with clear: both specified.  This will basically start everything following on the 'next line'.

An aside here, id tags are usually used to specify unique elements on a page, so there is only one div with id wrapper, one div with id search, one div with id pathway.  Classes are used to specify elements that will be reused (such as clr).  When you see # in your css, it means id, when you see . in your css, it means class.

After the clear you will see div id="whitebox".  This creates the whitebox inside the template.  You will see a couple of divs right after.  If you look at the background for these elements css you will see that they point to images which define the corners and top of the box. 

Then whitebox_m - this is the middle part of the whitebox.  You will see it has a border-left and border-right specified in the css.  This is a 1 pixel solid border with color #ccc.  The three character colour codes are abbreviations in a sense.  This is short for #cccccc.  Basically, each digit expands to two of the same (#000 is #000000, #abc is #aabbcc).

Inside the whitebox_m, you have an area div which basically holds everything else inside.  Inside of area, you have two main elements: div leftcolumn and div maincolumn.  You will see that leftcolumn has a width of 20% (from the css), and maincolumn has a margin of 20%.

After the two columns there is a clearing div (div class="clr") and after the area div there is a another clearing div (div class="clr").

divs are used for styling because they are generally more accessible and are cleaner code...  You are free to use tables if you would like...  What you could do is just take your old template and replace the
As for the style="-1" stuff, this was actually carried over from 1.0.  These tell the Joomla! core how to render a specific element.  There is documentation somewhere about what that means, I don't have time to look it up right now.  Try the help.joomla.org in the template development section.

But my recommendation would be to get one of the nightly builds, because these mysterious '-1' and stuff have been replaced with more descriptive parameters.  In the latest code you will see something like style="rounded" or style="xhtml", which IMO is easier to understand.

The solarflare template probably seemed  easier to understand because IIRC it used square borders, and didn't need a lot of extra layout.  Milkyway looks a lot sharper (IMO), but the tradeoff for all the curves is a lot of extra divs.  Once you get used to this, I think it looks less intimidating.

Anyway, I hope this explanation has been helpful...  it is worthwhile to learn divs...  they have a lot of flexibility and are generally considered better code because more of the placement and styling and positioning is done in css rather than in the HTML.

Happy trails as you learn!
Ian

Before I answer I have just seen the post by IanMac .... excellent explanation and many thanks... Ill get back but I figure I started this explanation so Ill finish  

Well, let me reply with a little French saying  it doesn't translate all that well since English has no real word for a one eyed man but it goes
"In the land of the blind the one-eyed-men are kings"

The reason I quote this is partly just a joke but also because that is where I feel I am with Joomla. 
I am far from seeing it with two eyes open like the devs... but I can see a lot more of it than the blind who simply use other peoples templates.  I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with that ... but view it like a car...

Hopefully you have reached a ripe age already so this will make sense but 20 years ago your average car was a pretty simple affair... something like a mini cooper (desperately thinking of cars which have the same name world over here) but anyway my brother has a mini cooper and when I was growing up my best friend had a 2CV ...

We spent many happy hours pulling out the engines and stuff and hey a 600cc engine can actually be lifted by two people without special tools ... you could pull of the carb or mess with the timing using nothing more complex than a set of wrenches and screwdrivers.  About the most complex tool you needed was a torque wrench but my friend was an engineer and could pretty much guess lbs or torque since he used torque wrenches at work everyday... he could get a feeling with a certain length of wrench and more or less apply the right torque.  Well we may have stripped a few threads sometimes
But the point is we could do almost anything to the car without any specialist tools.
My engineering skills however were only interested amature... DIY but still with a book and the basic tools I could fix my own car and still do what I can..

Now take a look at any modern car... I have a Peugeot 306 ... I can't even set the timing without a computer connected to the EMS .. and Im more or less relegated to changing fluids and such...
If the 2CV wouldn't start we would whip it apart ... wipe out moisture from the carb in Winter or worse case use the starting hangle and manually turn the engine,  the ignition key got broken at some point but no prob we just added a switch ... still needed the keys in the hole for the steering lock (except one notable time we forgot) but non of that is even vaguely possible with my newish 306 ... heck if I deadlock it and the battery goes I can't even open the doors ...

Sure its way more powerful than the old 2l cars... well roughly twice an old fashioned 1970's 2l engine but Im' pretty much relegated to using it as an appliance... sure I can change the oil but that's kinda like changing a lightbulb (least wise about as complex as changing a lightbulb in a TFT projector) ...

I feel its a shame if Joomla sorta goes the same way ...

So just a quick quote from part of ianmac's post


Yep you could be right ... and

Yes, really helpful but.... (ah isn't there always a but)
Yes, I know professional HTML coders and Im sure they would laugh at my code.... and politely explain why tables are $EVIL...  and yep .. I'm aware of it ...
As analogy... yep Ive seen accountants using Excel as a word processor and Ive seen Excel used as a project planner with columns representing a month... and I have answered support complaints that "excel is rubbish" because after 3 years of project planning and 36 columns they go rather hard to read...  (What do you expect its not intended to be used like that)

So yep Im aware tables were not really designed for layout...   and given enough nested tables... ugggh but Im not trying to make a template like milkyway ... which yes does look awesome ... Im more at the this works and I understand it level ...


spot on... I agree its looks fantastic   and your explanation is excellent and should be stuck into milkway somewhere in the sample data... IMHO ...  and Im willing to accept that if I understood div's it would be less intimidating...

At the same time I still think a basic included template would be an excellent idea.  A sorta start here for making your own template for people who like me are really a step above being a complete n00b in HTML...
I would guess this is why i didn't find the old inclusion of direct php like
mosLoadModules ( 'left' );
intimidating since I wasn't in a position of being a proficient HTML coder ... to start off .. I basically had no php experience and very basic HTML... but I do have rather extensive SQL knowledge so that part wasn't offputting...I did a whole load of development using PERL and various SQL databases so applyiung that to php is pretty trivial. 

Finally I have to take my hats off to you guys... looking back my post was a bit moany and yet several really knowledgeable people have helped me understand.  You encouraged me to finally read up on div's (I promise when I finish the bit of work I'm doing) and believe me I already had several friends tell me .. stop using tables ... and Ive always figured.. anything i write is pretty basic anyway so what the heck, Ill learn when I really have to. 

I guess what I'm saying is documentation is one aspect and example is another.  I lean towards learning by example anyway... but I think this is especially important for stuff like Joomla because real documentation is by definition pretty complex.. you can't really get round that.  Its kinda like a text book you need to read all the way through before you can actually understand exactly why you needed to learn that stuff in CHAPTER #1 becaue its not until it all comes together that some of the stuff makes sense.  Bearing in mind the whole point of Joomla is IMHO "anyone can do it" you are bound to have lots of people who simply get interested from starting with near zero HTML experience and seeing what others have done. 

In a way Im a testament to that ... if I can do it then really anyone with a decent level of intellegence can,  because i really was starting from scratch.... anyway... Im printing your post now and when I get a bit of time Ill rewalk through milkyway. 

and finally



Yes and you are of course correct ....
However just to put it into context (your still correct I'm just saying this from a different perspective) is I actually installed 1.5 specifically because I wanted to learn to use the new tool. 
If anything I was getting confident in 1.1.x and started thinking perhaps I could graduate onto more involved stuff and even make a contribution  

I figured that 1.1x is pretty much going to be legacy by the time I actually learn enough to for instance get the same confdence writing say modules ... heck perhaps I'll be old and gray by then ... so I figured I needed to download the beta and start learning the new stuff and new tools. 
Meanwhile I think the dicussion is useful, even if its distracted devs from what they do best.... appearance is important for n00bs and I don't just mean yeah Milkyway looks fantastic appearance I mean the whole how Joomla.org is viewed ...

For instance I only just got round to installing Joomla without sample data.... why?  Well I think its extremely valuable for how to build a site.. sure I spend forever switching off 90% .. but I might have never tried the wrapper module for instance had it not been turned on .... in many ways this is a whole suck it and see concept... something I prefer as my learnign method over reading 100 pages of documentation first... I like to play about then read the relevant documentation....

Hey,

Glad to hear you are willing to stick things through...

I have no complaints about your earlier post, but the followup to my question was much more helpful...  when you said... the 1.5 templating system is hard to understand, this puzzled me because really it is a change from something like:
to   Very insignificant IMO, and if anything, easier to understand if php throws you off...  there is no php, just XHTML...

What I hear you saying is that you want a simple, basic template that will act as a base to get people started...  I will try and get one posted as an example when I get a chance...  I'm not sure this needs to be included in the core code, because those who download the core don't necessarily want to develop templates, but perhaps a one page quick start template development could include it as a starting point...

1.5 templates unleash a lot of power, but I don't think they have to be overly complex...  the complexity is in the HTML, not the Joomla! end of it.

Ian

P.S. a minor matter of nomenclautre...there are currently two versions of Joomla!  The current stables is 1.0.11, and the beta is 1.5.  There is no 1.1 (what used to be 1.1 is now 1.5 - the version number was bumped up).

Hey...

I rigged up something quick...  hopefully this is simpler for you...  it still uses divs, as I don't have any templates now that don't, but I think (hope) it is easier to understand.  Pick it up at:

http://ianmaclennan.org/joomlaexamples/grove.zip

It is designed for the latest nightly, so it may not work properly on the beta...  You'll have to download the latest nightly via a link at:
http://dev.joomla.org/content/view/17/60/

Ian

Yeah I guess for me php is probably easier than HTML... (or XHTML) simply because its a programming language ... I guess I have the same conceptual problems with things like LATEX ... I find structured programming languages muich easier than text display stuff...  and Im guessing most ex-programmers do too. Its hardly a secret that programmers make lousy document writers or UI designers in general  
I downloaded the template so Ill give it a go... I need a 1.5 reinstall anyway so ...


I agree not everyone does (or even the majority...) but give me a moment and I'll explain why...

Lots of people just want a blackbox .... fine... and they chose a great CMS for that... no arguament
but how about some other types of users.... I came to  Joomla (via Mambo) because I knew my HTML was crap... and I wanted to get a decent looking website up in a hurry.  I was pretty impressed immediately... and after disceting a few templates I figured "hey I can do this..perhaps not so nice as rhuk... but good enough"... but I guess it was a nice simple template I managed to find made me think this...

I was also showing a site to a friend (I mentioned earlier who is a php programmer by profession) ... or you have others who perhaps used other CMS's etc.
Milkyway is great.. it shows what can be done and its impressive... but I think its also intimidating? 

From my persective the whole idea of opensource is the ability to get involved... at whatever level... be it UI design, documentation or down and dirty with the dev's but I think this follows a logical progression...

sure some people jump in with both feet and start doing developement but I think most people do this more progressively because its part of feeling involved... again my perspective but this was my progression...

step 1 is probably template hacking, perhaps just changing the graphics by creating the same size graphics as the supplied ones...

step 2 design, Im thinking is when you think ... jeez I hate being stuck in that aspect ratio .. how hard can it be to mod the template a bit and get my graphic in there without stretching/clipping.... ?? 

step 3 ... I got comfy with making small mods on other peoples templates... I guess I'd downloaded lots and tried them just looking for one with the right sorta shape to plop my graphics into the .. hey.. why not just edit the template .. why not write my own from scratch? 

step 4... Im IMHO at now ... Im reasonably happy on 1.0.x (version's noted ) thinking hey... perhaps I can actually take the next step... Im thinking of looking into modules...

By the time I get to step 20 (or whereever) perhaps Ill actually be more actively involved and writing core code? 

Its just my 2c but i think if a simple template was installed by default then a lot more people would take step 1 ?? and a lot more people wopuld take step 1 earlier...?? 

Call it "Opensource marketing" ... or selling the idea "You too can do this" ... and holding peoples hand a little on that "The journey of a lifetime starts with a single step" 
or look at it like this ...
A lot of people might never get to step 1 because the template itself is intimidating... (Im not saying the drop the template because it shows of the power of Joomla really well.  ) but providing a easy user customisable template to be included in core would be a nice hand-holding first step for people who might end up switching to something different simply because the first step is easier? 

I'm a big opensource believer ... but the power of opensource is with the masses and getting them to contribute...
Thanks for Grove ... thats my next thing to look at  





1.5 templates unleash a lot of power, but I don't think they have to be overly complex...  the complexity is in the HTML, not the Joomla! end of it.

Ian

P.S. a minor matter of nomenclautre...there are currently two versions of Joomla!  The current stables is 1.0.11, and the beta is 1.5.  There is no 1.1 (what used to be 1.1 is now 1.5 - the version number was bumped up).
[/quote]

Check out these books if you want to learn something about CSS. I think not just the right wat for Joomla to go, I think it is the way it must go. CSS is a web standard that all serious web designers/developers use to make their web sites easier to manage and easier to access.
Check out Dan Cederholm if you want some very good help on learning CSS:

• Web Standards Solutions: The Markup and Style Handbook
• Bulletproof Web Design: Improving flexibility and protecting against worst-case scenarios with XHTML and CSS

He has a very good way with words and the books provide you with simple yet effective ways of creating slick, standard compliant web sites.

Kiper

Ian:
Many many many thanks ............

[OFFTOPIC]
I've been a bit busy....   for some reason I decided to play with my webserver .... late after coming home from a pub...
I felt OK... (honest ) and was sorting out some old stuff (having aincient mysql3 amongst others) ...
This side I know backwards so I reconfigure the package manager in Debian and for some reason I can't quite fathom select drop databases on purge???  I have no idea why...
A bit later I decide to upgrade .something random (I think it ws gallery2).. and it prompts me to ... upgrade mysql ...
ahem...  ahem....
So it starts off tells me its DEINSTALLING ... should I contiinue.... and I hit Y (not even the default) ... a split second after my mind is saying NO NO NO .... unfortunately my finger was set to semi-automomous mode and hit Y anyway
(well technically it was "O" Oui ) .... panic ... panic CRTL+C ....

so short story ... I reinstalled the backed up DB dumps .... on my desktop .(not server)...and installed apache2/mysql... and decided a complete reinstall of the server was in order this time with remote access in a GUI... and this time in English ....and this time in stable.... not testing ....

I think there are several morals to this   .. never play with a server in a foreign language while 4 sheets to the wind strikes me as the first... Im betting I would never have made the same mistake had it been in English my mother tongue ...and it was only in French for a friend to play with who's English is limited .... 
[/OFFTOPIC]

So the good news is.....
I hacked grove apart ... played about and it really helped me get to grips with milkyway..... 
I still think a included simple template would be a cool thing for n00bs...


Starting a new topic ....... will edit post and link later...

edits: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,112109.0.html

If yoiu are still looking for some documentation on Joomla! 1.5 templates this might be of some use to you.

http://www.halfvast.com/blog/

In the sidebar at right, scrolll down and look for a lnk called Joomla! 1.5 Template Stuff.  That and entries under it contain my notes on 1.5 templates.  I think its still up to date.

Many thanks will check it out right after I type this  

I just have a little to say about whether or not the template system should be something everyone can do. 

The idea behind a CMS is not that everyone everywhere should be able to start the CMS site from scratch.  Everyone can update, manage content, create content, manage users, etc without PHP knowledge.

This is an open-source, totally unpaid endeavor on the part of the Joomla developers, and what you're asking them is to not only create the CMS (management of content, not design), but to also create a design engine that takes your raw ideas and turns them into a design.

Web design simply doesn't work that way.  You have to learn the design language.  By paying a 3rd party template developer, you get the convenience of not having to learn the design language.  If you're going to create multiple templates or want complete control over the design, you're just going to have to bite the bullet to learn.

As a database programmer from the "old school" who recently got into web development, I see where you're coming from when you say you want to be able to do things for yourself.  I wholly despise paying money for techie things that I should be able to perform by reading a tutorial or three.  But, such is life sometimes.  I have not yet paid for a Joomla template, but I was handcuffed to some free ones for a while until I figured out how to make them on my own. 

Zen cart templates? You can have them! I am about to pay for one for a client just so I don't even have to LOOK at how to do it.  Compared to other systems, the Joomla template system, even for 1.5, is a newbie dreammmmmmmm.

I"m currently teaching CSS to someone who knows HTML from years ago, and has been doing little personal sites for herself and her dog and cat rescue in circa 1996 designs.  OUCH.  She's pained at having to learn a new language, but even for regular 5 and 6 page HTML websites, CSS is now a must for professional look and feel.  Div tags are a BIG part of CSS... heck I'm still not 100% effective at proper positioning and want to go back to my old table layouts... but I'm trying to be brave.

I like the program Top Style Pro even better than doing the CSS out of Dreamweaver.  It has a preview window that shows you  what each change you make in the CSS does, so it helps to visualize what happens when you publish to Joomla.

Oh also, CSS allows us to FLOAT... that is, wrap text around other text boxes, or around a div, etc.  You can make designs that are not locked into rows and columns like in table designs.  Things can overlap, or be diagonal.... CSS is the only way to design!

So by gearing things toward a language that is new to you, it seems like the templating system has gone esoteric on  you.  I get that.  CSS have been around for years though... on the desk of one of my clients I found a book from the year 2000 calling CSS layouts "the future".  I said "oh good, you've got outdated stuff.  I don't feel my job is threatened at all.  The future is here!"  And we laughed a while about how quickly things change on the Internet.

Enough of my rambling, I just thought maybe a new perspective might help.  Even though I'm a little late on the topic.

tydust:  I appereciate this but its in two parts.  Firstly when I say anyone I mean of course anyone with a reasonable intellegence.  Without being too rude some people have problems tying their shoes ... and of course I don't expect they will be coding anything but your average Joe should be able to...

Not exactly though it would be nice perhaps   but I see we have some commonaility below so lets move on...


Yes, I remember Oracle Forms 6 on VAX ... I don't really want free templates to use, I want them to learn by example because that is a large part of what OpenSource means for me ...

As an example I have "written" kernel drivers when I needed to, I had no idea how to do this so I just took apart the source for similar drivers, modified them, tried them and eventually ended up with something usable. 
However there is a HUGE difference between kernel development and the template I have seen....and that is largely in code documentation.  Practically all Joomla templates have no documentation in the template code... yep its not a big deal, you comment it out and see what it affects but its not the same "philosophy" ... "OpenSource" apps should be designed and commented to be copied and extended... that's the whole purpose of OS...

On the whole ... (and this is my experience/impresssion) many of the templates for Joomla are "nominally" OpenSource .. that is they are simply 1 version that can be posted that links back to a site with 50 commercial templates and 3 free ones and moreover the free ones are uncommented in order to "preserve the mystery" ... don't get me wrong Im in no way against commerical templates


Yes it is ... however the question is.. is it starting to drift or be influenced? 

I recently had to do some work on another "opensource system" (I don't really want to mention it for reasons which should be self apparent)
What did I find ? 
Well for one the liscense keeps changing ....not always a bad thing but each liscense change has been accompanied by an often pointless rewriting of the code or schema ... indeed many of the schema alterations are purely to prevent compatibility and actually achieve nothing...(Like you that's my field of experience, I can look at DB schemas with a very practiced eye)

This has been accompanied with removal of the source from mirrors and replaced with new source with new liscenses..
Moreoever many of the "modules" which were developed by the community then don't work ....

'Incidentally' one of these is a front end module editor .... (its not like you don't need know how to code to use it but it made many of the tasks simpler) ... another, perhaps more poignant example is a Mambo/Joomla module using PEAR.

What happened to this?  Well basically the GPL version was sat on by the core development team (which in this case is commercial) and source code removed from the tree.  Meanwhile they have done absolutely zero with it... all the have done is remove it from the OpenSource community and sit on it in a form of code squatting...
I went back through the mailing lists ... (I was actually being paid for this so unlike the Joomla stuff I was pretty thorough) and several times groups have tried to reactivate the Mambo/Joomla module... each time the core team have basically sidestepped around this. 
Its my opinion they are just code sitting... allowing a Joomla plug-in would open up extensions beyond their control and allow people to implement customisations they might not like... in my case (I can't really say what I was doing because of confidentiality) I could have saved a whole load of custom hacking by just using Joomla as the extension...
What I did is OK ... it works but it will not upgrade had I been able to use the Joomla plugin and this is maintained it would have been upgradable...

Now Im in no way saying Joomla is like this... what i am saying is that commerical pressure has to be resisted where it affects the core ... or where it impedes the core...

As I understand it 1.0.x outputs as tables, even when the internal code is

Ah ... Sorry, but: No, it doesn't work this way. There is nothing like a free ride. Neither with commercial nor with non-commercial nor with opensource systems.

A CMS is used to make input of data (articles, news, call it whatever you want) possible for unexperienced users and to make administration of content more easy. Higher levels of permissions are needed to have more control over parts of the site and the whole site. Technical details are not of interest at those levels. The more complicated structure of organization the better ACL must be.

The better separation of code, design and content the better the CMS in this relation as well. When content is separated from rest everybody being able to type an article at a keyboard is able to produce content.

Design and system administration are different kind of animals. One needs knowledge there. The more - the better.

There are differences to commercial CMSs and opensource ones:

Those commercial systems do what they want. You have more or less chances to take influence via configuration. You must also have real knowledge when you want to change design or anything else being related to system for itself.

You don't have the sourcecode in most cases. Therefor you can not change behaviour of system for itself in "kernel". Or do you expect to get sourcecode of a system priced in regions of $100,000 or more?

You don't have quality control in such degree like you have with opensource for this.

Documentation - the more, the better. But, it does not help a novice when he gets extensive documentation because he does not have the knowledge  to understand what he reads. It also does not help when you have no real chance to take influence without expensive maintenance contract.

In case you want more documentation you have really good chance to write it when the product is open source. With closed source I would never waste a single thought about it.

Related to dependancies mentioned (IE and the like):
I must use those products because my customers use them. My income depends on knowledge about those products. For myself I prefer OS/2 followed by Linux and BSD. But, my opinion is another kind of animal when it comes to money making.

Im not asking anyone for a free ride.... and I mostly agree... the point is that from a different perspective ...in that to a large extend the Joomla dev's expect a free ride.... (don't over react at this point.... and let me explain)

The Joomla dev's expect to use php and mysql which are both OS.... and they expect that documentation, comments etc. available regardless of the fact mysql is a commercial company....  when they upgrade to allow compatibility with a new version of php or mysql they reasonably expect the differences to be documented and to find freely available examples which help explain the sometimes patchy documentation on a new release. 

To use another analogy....
Take many commercial linux distro's....
Most of them seek to hide the  under the hood workings from the user....
If you look at Suse as one extreme almost every config file has "warning do not edit"....if you do you stand to break YaST and without YaST suse doesn't even function...

On the other extreme is say Gentoo or arch....
every file is heavily commented practically every directive is present with a simple example.... and indeed mostly you have no other way to configure it.... (p.s. I don't use Gentoo much ... Im not just praising it/knocking it depending on your view)

Now arch freely admits its not for n00bs... Gentoo doesn't and yet hundreds of thousands of n00bs manage to follow the documentation and install from source.  If you can read and understand you can install Gentoo from source. 

Now if you listen to Mandriva or Suse they will tell you n00bs are incapable of that... they obviously are not... but what mandriva and suse have in common is they are commercial distros that rely on lock-in on thier config tools. 

Gentoo can do this because the documentation is outstanding and the forums do hand holding... and at the end the n00bs install... configure and understand (mostly)...

The difference is if you install X on gentoo it goes where the developers of X want it to go...
if x==kde
Gentoo (Debian and arch and slackware) all stick it where it should be... and intact...
Mandriva/Suse etal hack it to pieces, remove parts which interfere with their user tools and then install it in non standard locations... and then fail to document this...and of course the KDE documentation doesn't work because its hacked.

This is all legal... but its not what the GPL intended....and indeed some of it is illegal (like rebranding which mandriva does)... and all of this is fine except they don't acknowledge that their whole OS with the exception of some user space tools are actually based on the work of others... Do you see Novel acknowledging they just based Suse on Slackware .. Im willing to bet 90% of suse users don't even realise this... and most probably think its RH based because it uses RPM's....

Mostly most of the users don't have any idea how to do things for themselves....
They don't have to.... but Suse/Mandriva actively try and obfusciate this....gentoo/slack more or less forces it and Debian more or less just defaults to what the original devels did (see discussions over Firefox branding)

So is a linux system complex?  Yes... more complex by a long way than a CMS.... but that doesn't mean it has to be hard...
The seperation between users and admins and devels can be kept as level as possible...

Im not saying Joomla is doing this deliberatly .. Im just saying its worth considering how to provide a smooth learning curve across users/admins/devels/core devels....

To give an example again.... Mandriva start out with a low gradient curve.... but then has a huge step to the next level and another huge step after that.... and in many cases these steps are deliberatly made as big as possible....In many cases they have simply made themselves a huge mess by starting the seperation and having to hack all the packages to stop them breaking their little user tools....

Debian has a steeper start.... but then its smooth... all the way to kernel.org

In the end lets hope Joomla sees many happy releases into the Joomla 10.x and beyond but by that time many of the devs of today will be gone .. people have families, get high pressure jobs.. etc.  but that level learning curve is what will provide tomorrows devs... and they will start on templates then modules then components and eventually core and by that time the system will probably have even more levels... but what is important IMHO is each one is incrementally small and possible...

This is fundamental to OS....IMHO.. that people progress smoothly to the level the want and have time and interest for

So in other words if Joomla has a default template then it should have 3x as many lines of code as milkyway where all those extra lines are documentation.... 

Stripping out the documentation (or Im sure rhuk doesn't need it for himself) simply leaves it as imposing for someone who has never used Joomla before...
Yes its very "pretty" nice.and shows off Joomla... but documentation would be nice   as would inclusion of a start_here template....

If the change is required then the idea is make it easy for anyone with a modicum of sense to be able to write their own...and I don't think the two need to be mutually exclusive...?

Oh! phew...

I do not know how familiar you are with history of os software in commercial environment. I've been there in leading position and had to fight for it many times. mysql has only been one of those products. It had no sufficient documentation for normal users at this time but, it had success because people using it at those times had knowledge. You should also have a close look at history of postgresql to see what can happen (with or without docs).

This would explain what I mean with "free ride":
When you want something - have a look at it. The more you want, the more you must look. It's up to you how far you dive into something with your own head and documentation being available for free or affordable fee. Without having a solid knowledge about the basics you will always complain about missing documentation no matter how much you pay for it. And here we have the difference between novice and expert.

In relation to Joomla! I don't mean there should be no documentation - the opposite applies. But, I never expect to have docs available with such an early beta like v1.5 is now. Such an early beta is nothing for trivial users. It must become more mature to give people chance to write documentation without having need to change it next day.

We are in lucky position to have a very responsible dev team here and we can ask. No question - no answer. For people not being programmers or developers for themselves something like a gamma version is needed. Those people have to wait for the beast being ready to jump out of the box.

The point is the documentation doesn't need to be exhaustive in any way....
Decently commented source code is as good a documentation as you need but with any of the included templates in 1.0 or 1.5 there isn't a single comment....(if you wanna exclude the GPL text)

Even perl needs comments and perl is essentially written to be human readable...

Now you could argue these templates are so simple they don't need commenting but its simply not the case....
So far as Im concerned C doesn't need comments, I can just look through it and its obvious to me... the same goes for several languages I have used extensively... and Im certain I can fiund a language you don't know and write something that will give you huge headaches to get to grips with whereas 10 minutes of docmenting the code and you would not only understand what its doing BUT learn a few ways to do something in that language...

The important thing is someone who doesn't know that language can make sense of them....and hence learn from them. 

No matter how simple the designers think the template is and how elegant the code its not good programming if its not commented. 

I learned that the hard way a long long time ago..(20 yrs). on some CS assesement where I got a measly 50% ...
It was just an algorithm... and I didn't think much of it since I actually passed easily anyway... then the lecturer called me back at the end...
apparently the code had caused much discussion in the CS dept... it was a common algorithm test and I did it a completely different way than they had ever seen... but I had been obsessed by distilling the code into the minimalist ...

The bottom line was I got told I would have got 100% if I put a single comment into the code....and that the code was beautiful but I lost 50% straight off by not commenting it....

I was young and peeved at the time.... why comment something so elegant to me it was like sticking a big paper over a masterpiece painting detailing the techniques, paints and obsuring the actual painting itself....

20 years of programing and project management later I now tell my coders "comment comment comment" ...

As it happens the best example I saw I for Joomla/Mambo I stumbled across .. and it was actually a freebie from a commerical site... and it came with docs and heavy comments (uncomment this to XXXX) ... or comment the above to YYYYY

IMHO The same rule as was applied to me 20 years ago should have been applied to the template competitions...with 50% of the marks for comments that way the very talented people who have contributed to this would also be contributing to others understanding....

The idea in OS (especially non commercial OS) is to make the code accessible....and understandable to someone but especially a n00b wanting to modify it...
It almost appears that the idea behind milkyway is the opposite... that is its intimidating to anyone who hasn't learned HTML  I don't think that is deliberate and I don't expect the coders themselves to think of this...

HTML is meant to be easy.... afaik writing templates for Joomla is easy if you get well commented examples... php is simple but those of us learning HTML by example want relevant examples....

I don't want to pick up a book and learn HTML for .net.... or similar, I have no intention of ever using .net...

by example ... think O Reilly books .. the style is conducive to learning by example...
I once had to learn PERL:DBD .. I just picked up the work by Tim Bunce in fact Ill find it now...


see the code here....
http://www.perl.com/pub/a/1999/10/DBI.html

The point is you don't need to know perl to use and modify it...  I didn't when I started...
I just took the most basic example and added my own SQL...

Is that a free ride?  Not in my book Tim Bunce got a free ride off Larry Wall so to speak... so  he pays back that ride by giving a ride to someone else...

As is commonly said there's no such thing as a free lunch....nor is there a free ride...
You pay back through kind....
So when I have actually got a decent understanding of 1.5 I'll pay back by giving templates with comments...

This is exactly what one of the posters above did for me .(ianmac). he gave me a lift...
If I can ever help him I will but equally I can pay back that ride by helping any member of the community....