Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

A place to discuss recent announcements made by the Joomla! Core Team. Let's hear what you have to say.
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby TomT » Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:24 am

doublebeast wrote: Ever sort out better freedoms, or i will just make my own idea of what mambo should be turned into, as it is becomign annoying...
You're not obliged to use Joomla! If you can do a better job yourself, feel feel to start your own CMS.  Or choose one of the dozens other open source systems, you might even consider Mambo  ;).

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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby doublebeast » Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:56 am

this is what is understanden not, why does it say that it has to be a minimum size of 1 inch, but the favicon icon for joomla is much smaller on the firefox browser, isn't that violating that stupid thing... I understand that we do have to respect it so it shows the quality of joomla still exists, however the practicality of this is not good at all. The only thing i can suggest is that you are free to use the  logo but cannot use it commercially, whilst you must show decency to the logo so it is still clearly visible against a background and whatever.

Aswell just bung it on the default template and allow users to remove it, however don't you have to have some where on your site the joomla logo? As i  thought you did with Mambo... As if it is optional to display it, but have powered by Joomla as the footer i am fine with it...

About starting a new  cms, i might aswell just tweak one so it is much better, as i would not be able to get a development team. I have asked help on  a great mod, but no one has answered. It is a referral and point system, my example is bsay.co.uk

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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby buzzlyhan » Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:34 am

about Joomla! New Logo EPS files

first .. thanks for a great work.

and, are these files formats by "illustrator CS" (version 11)?  ..maybe.. ???
I couldn't open Logo files because my Illustrator is 9.0.(or is there a problem in my software?)

So, I think "Illustrator 9" format better than it. :-*
for many users and transparency okay.

cheers!
Illustration and WEB design
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby manuman » Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:54 am

doublebeast wrote:this is what is understanden not, why does it say that it has to be a minimum size of 1 inch, but the favicon icon for joomla is much smaller on the firefox browser, isn't that violating that stupid thing
You would do well to read the manual again... the Logo is the "symbol" + the "Joomla!" text and it is that which in the case of the vertical version should be no less that 1 inch. There are no minimum measurements given for the Symbol on its own. Hence a favicon or button will be permissable. Also... as you will find in another thread we are also developing bottons. Again these will be small and un-obtrusive to a site.

Aswell just bung it on the default template and allow users to remove it, however don't you have to have some where on your site the joomla logo? As i  thought you did with Mambo... As if it is optional to display it, but have powered by Joomla as the footer i am fine with it...
It was never the case that you had to have anything "Mambo"(logo or name) visable on a Mambo site, nor is it the case with Joomla!

Everyone should also read the announcement on the main site in full... we will be adding more logo variations in various sizes and configurations. The hope being that the majority of peoples requirements will be met by what has been produced. This will not prohibit people from creating their own versions, but would make it much less likely they would need to.

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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby jmc » Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:53 am

The hope being that the majority of peoples requirements will be met by what has been produced

And so they will, I am sure. Until you decide on the tagline. Then we'll be back here arguing.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I was under the impression that the whole purpose of the Joomla! logo (and the Community's part in choosing it) was "brand identification"? I.E. for the CMS, not for our own sites. That seems to be the entire drift of the Brand Guide, after all (EXCELLENT work, btw!). I don't, in that case, see the point of all of this nit-picking. Surely, if you build your own (or a client's) site, you will have your own design/logo/colour theme for that purpose? What, then, is the point of plastering stock Joomla! logos all over it? Unless its some kind or narcissistic exercise? ;D
I have no problem with adding (where appropriate) a discreet "Powered by..." badge, as a token of respect to the work done by many people in creating Joomla! for me to utilise as an end-user. But I would not even consider giving the Joomla! logo dominant positioning in a client's site. Nor (as has been pointed out), am I required to.
Of course, a large number of Joomla!/Mambo sites exisit purely for the purpose of disseminating mods/components/templates for the respective CMS's. They may feel it necessary to make heavier use of the branding imagery in their sites, if only to make it visually clear that they make their living pandering to the requirements of an Open Source Community. Personally, I go for content over graphical appearance every time! And I'm damn sure that these sites form a very small proportion of the total using this CMS out there! Most of whom probably don't mention Joomla!/Mambo except in the footer or code.
My 2c's worth, anyway.
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby bedet » Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:06 am

1st: Congrats with the fine work on the new logo! It's GREAT!
2nd appol. for my poor English
3rd: I'm not so happy with The Rules
Why: i've a hostingsite called Joomla4U. I've made a few logo's for this site before I started to read de Brand Manual. I see no way how i can design a logo with my name and NOT breaking The Rules!
I like to respect the Logo but I'm forced to make somthing completly different so i will not breaking The Rules.
Can anyone pls give me some advise!!!??
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby bluesaze » Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:13 am

bedet wrote:Can anyone pls give me some advise!!!??

Hi I think its fine just leave a bigger gap between Joomla and 4U i.e dont make it one word. That should solve your problem.
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby manuman » Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:30 am

bluesaze wrote:
bedet wrote:Can anyone pls give me some advise!!!??

Hi I think its fine just leave a bigger gap between Joomla and 4U i.e dont make it one word. That should solve your problem.
Absolutely correct.

Your site provides Joomla! hosting and as such the usage of the Joomla! logo is fine, however we are trying to prevent usage that in anyway implies an inherent connection with Joomla!. For examlpe based on the logos shown, a newbie could easily make the mistake of thinking your hosting site was an Official Joomla! site, or endorsed/associated with Joomla!(which it isn't).

The requirement for the spacing helps prevent this misinterpretation and it helps to clearly define the Joomla! and 4U as seperate entities(which they are).

Cheers
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby bedet » Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:50 am

OKE Thats Great ! Thnx
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby rhuk » Sat Oct 01, 2005 3:02 pm

Thanks for all the great comments so far.  Have no fear, we are taking them all in and we are modifying the Brand Guide to address some of your concerns, and also clarify issues that seem to be causing some confusion.  This is a living document and it will evolve, also it's a guideline to help you use the Joomla! logo, it's not an attempt to restrict your creativity.  You can use the word Joomla! in differrent fonts as you like with whatever imagery you like, this manual's purppose is specifically about protecting the official Joomla! Logo and brand.
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby kaizen » Sat Oct 01, 2005 3:34 pm

jmc wrote:
The hope being that the majority of peoples requirements will be met by what has been produced

And so they will, I am sure. Until you decide on the tagline. Then we'll be back here arguing.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I was under the impression that the whole purpose of the Joomla! logo (and the Community's part in choosing it) was "brand identification"? I.E. for the CMS, not for our own sites. That seems to be the entire drift of the Brand Guide, after all (EXCELLENT work, btw!). I don't, in that case, see the point of all of this nit-picking. Surely, if you build your own (or a client's) site, you will have your own design/logo/colour theme for that purpose? What, then, is the point of plastering stock Joomla! logos all over it? Unless its some kind or narcissistic exercise? ;D
I have no problem with adding (where appropriate) a discreet "Powered by..." badge, as a token of respect to the work done by many people in creating Joomla! for me to utilise as an end-user. But I would not even consider giving the Joomla! logo dominant positioning in a client's site. Nor (as has been pointed out), am I required to.
Of course, a large number of Joomla!/Mambo sites exisit purely for the purpose of disseminating mods/components/templates for the respective CMS's. They may feel it necessary to make heavier use of the branding imagery in their sites, if only to make it visually clear that they make their living pandering to the requirements of an Open Source Community. Personally, I go for content over graphical appearance every time! And I'm damn sure that these sites form a very small proportion of the total using this CMS out there! Most of whom probably don't mention Joomla!/Mambo except in the footer or code.
My 2c's worth, anyway.
John Mc


John Mc-

Very well put and succinctly explained!  Hopefully this will answer many folks questions.  In fact a summary of this (obviously edited to make it fit within the style of the manual) should be in the brand guide.

As Mr. Burns of the Simpson's would say:  "I like the cut of your jib, young man!"
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby robertm » Sat Oct 01, 2005 3:39 pm

Cudo's to Alan Urquhart for the great job on the usage manual.

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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby infograf768 » Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:18 pm

buzzlyhan wrote:about Joomla! New Logo EPS files

first .. thanks for a great work.

and, are these files formats by "illustrator CS" (version 11)?  ..maybe.. ???
I couldn't open Logo files because my Illustrator is 9.0.(or is there a problem in my software?)

So, I think "Illustrator 9" format better than it. :-*
for many users and transparency okay.

cheers!


Hi,
It is indeed an Illustrator 11 file.
But the png should suit your needs for transparency purposes.
Otherwise, you just have to open at the size you want the eps in Photoshop.
Hope this helps.
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby MyJC » Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:03 pm

infograf768 wrote:
buzzlyhan wrote:about Joomla! New Logo EPS files

first .. thanks for a great work.

and, are these files formats by "illustrator CS" (version 11)?  ..maybe.. ???
I couldn't open Logo files because my Illustrator is 9.0.(or is there a problem in my software?)

So, I think "Illustrator 9" format better than it. :-*
for many users and transparency okay.

cheers!


Hi,
It is indeed an Illustrator 11 file.
But the png should suit your needs for transparency purposes.
Otherwise, you just have to open at the size you want the eps in Photoshop.
Hope this helps.


the pngs don't seem to scale well in Macromedia products; they get bitty. Is there a way to make a vector png that will work with MM, eg, FireWorks?

Also, for those that don't use a graphics programs, could perhaps some official jpgs and gifs be reposited somewhere?

wr
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby kaizen » Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:18 pm

MyJC wrote:
infograf768 wrote:
buzzlyhan wrote:about Joomla! New Logo EPS files

first .. thanks for a great work.

and, are these files formats by "illustrator CS" (version 11)?  ..maybe.. ???
I couldn't open Logo files because my Illustrator is 9.0.(or is there a problem in my software?)

So, I think "Illustrator 9" format better than it. :-*
for many users and transparency okay.

cheers!


Hi,
It is indeed an Illustrator 11 file.
But the png should suit your needs for transparency purposes.
Otherwise, you just have to open at the size you want the eps in Photoshop.
Hope this helps.


the pngs don't seem to scale well in Macromedia products; they get bitty. Is there a way to make a vector png that will work with MM, eg, FireWorks?

Also, for those that don't use a graphics programs, could perhaps some official jpgs and gifs be reposited somewhere?

wr


Irfanview will do the conversions from PNG to JPG or GIF and it is freeware, for private, non-commercial use (that means at home).  IrfanView is also free for educational use (schools and universities) and for use in charity or humanitarian organisations.

http://www.irfanview.com/
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby rhuk » Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:45 pm

MyJC wrote:
the pngs don't seem to scale well in Macromedia products; they get bitty. Is there a way to make a vector png that will work with MM, eg, FireWorks?

Also, for those that don't use a graphics programs, could perhaps some official jpgs and gifs be reposited somewhere?

wr


FYI, The PNGs were created in Fireworks and scale down great for me.  All the web work i've done has been in fireworks with the PNGs.  Just drag the PNG into fireworks and resize away!
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby eyezberg » Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:23 pm

rhuk wrote:Thanks for all the great comments so far.  Have no fear, we are taking them all in and we are modifying the Brand Guide to address some of your concerns, and also clarify issues that seem to be causing some confusion.  This is a living document and it will evolve, ...

Then I strongly suggest you add a disclaimer to the download/link to the manual stating something along the lines of "only the most recent revision is current and valid" and add revision numbers and dates to the PDF, so no-one can say stuff like "but in my version (which I downloaded right from OSM on xx.xx.xxxx!), it doesn't say so!"

I also strongly suggest you hand out a document to the translation partners for the international communities, as many users are feeling Joomla is getting more and more restrictive, instead of getting code released, they see legal documents (this is from forum posts!). So an official statement in all languages might help..
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby rhuk » Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:46 pm

We're one step ahead of you.  The latest revision we're working on already has a date on the front cover.  Also, we will release the manual for translation just as soon as we have made the latest round of changes.  It would be completely pointless to release it now while we are still actively editing it.
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby MyJC » Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:03 pm

rhuk wrote:
MyJC wrote:
the pngs don't seem to scale well in Macromedia products; they get bitty. Is there a way to make a vector png that will work with MM, eg, FireWorks?

Also, for those that don't use a graphics programs, could perhaps some official jpgs and gifs be reposited somewhere?

wr


FYI, The PNGs were created in Fireworks and scale down great for me.  All the web work i've done has been in fireworks with the PNGs.  Just drag the PNG into fireworks and resize away!


Hmmm.... well, maybe I'm doing something wrong then. I downloaded this from the website, opened it in Fireworks MX 2004, went to Modify -> Canvas -> Image size and set the width to 250 and this is what I get...

Are you sure they weren't saved with Photoshop before being put on the website, because this is the same problem I have sharing files with my graphics-type friend who uses that app and exports as png.

Maybe it's me... I'm not saying I know what I'm talking about - I don't. I just want to make the image smaller and all I have is Fireworks. Thanks!
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby rhuk » Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:07 pm

Make sure you are using Bicubic resampling (in the image size window).  This is the image I get with Fireworks resizing the image to 250x50.
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby MyJC » Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:15 pm

aha! Thank you!
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby shoffman11 » Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:21 pm

Another problem I just thought of: you say on page 12 that the horizontal version of the logo should not be smaller than 1.375 inches, but the size that the logo will display on a user's screen is dependent on their resolution.  For example, I have my monitor set to 1280x1024 pixels, the logo on page 12 in the brand guide is exactly 1.375 inches (at 100% zoom); but, if my resolution is 800x600 pixels, the logo is 2.1875 inches.  You should remove this requirement all together.  As long as the aspect ratio doesn't change, the logo will look fine in all resolutions.  I don't have any problem with the core team asking for the logo to remain in the same proportion, but a fixed physical width presents too many problems.

Also, on page 11, you forgot to finish your sentence.  It says "Examples of tagline placement may be found on page #."  Fix this too :)

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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby urquharttownson » Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:13 pm

shoffman11 wrote:Another problem I just thought of: you say on page 12 that the horizontal version of the logo should not be smaller than 1.375 inches, but the size that the logo will display on a user's screen is dependent on their resolution.  For example, I have my monitor set to 1280x1024 pixels, the logo on page 12 in the brand guide is exactly 1.375 inches (at 100% zoom); but, if my resolution is 800x600 pixels, the logo is 2.1875 inches.  You should remove this requirement all together.  As long as the aspect ratio doesn't change, the logo will look fine in all resolutions.  I don't have any problem with the core team asking for the logo to remain in the same proportion, but a fixed physical width presents too many problems.

Also, on page 11, you forgot to finish your sentence.  It says "Examples of tagline placement may be found on page #."  Fix this too :)


Shoffman11,

I just realized the current manual on the site is actually a draft and not the final. It is pretty much the same as the final, there was only some minor corrections in the final. The unfinished sentence is actually finished. Also, we did add metric and pixel sizes for the logo. No worries though, I am close to completion on the revised manual which will have those corrections plus other corrections and modifications. As for the logo, the minimum size for the web would be 1.375" at 72dpi. This would work out to be 99px wide.
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby robertm » Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:25 pm

shoffman11 wrote:Another problem I just thought of: you say on page 12 that the horizontal version of the logo should not be smaller than 1.375 inches, but the size that the logo will display on a user's screen is dependent on their resolution.  [snip]  You should remove this requirement all together. 


You can always put a ruler up against your monitor. :)

There is no perfect answer but that doesn't mean the point is not valid: if the logo is too small it will become illegible.

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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby buzzlyhan » Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:14 am

Thanks for all replies.

I understood.
I'm a designer so that I like "Open Source" vector data simply... :)
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby mediawizard » Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:05 am

I dont understand what all the fuss is about, the brand manual basically is to prevent people from abusing the brand or the logo for that matter, if we have 5000 variations of the logo will only dilute brand equity

while i agree some restrictions might be too much ... like the space bit, which even this site does not follow, it is all in there for a purpose

basically you are not allowed to abuse the logo or alter it, that said, if it is used in a sense which is true to the spirit of the brand manual i do not think anyone will have much of a problem

loved the 3d background in the original submission, but its not that the current logo detracts from that

All in all, awesome job ladies and gentlemen, now onward and  forward.
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby doublebeast » Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:01 pm

another thing i want to mension is, why do you call it a brand, it isn't a product or company, it is opensource software. I know it is apposed to sound professional, however it looks to formal, like a kid trying to act like an adult. I think that, it should just put these are guide lines what the joomla organisation expects from users. Not that they should force users, but the fact they are given respect back to the communtiy. As the rules are to specific, we should judge for ourselves, whether it doesn't explot it or not

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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby manuman » Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:39 pm

doublebeast wrote:another thing i want to mension is, why do you call it a brand, it isn't a product or company, it is opensource software. I know it is apposed to sound professional, however it looks to formal, like a kid trying to act like an adult. I think that, it should just put these are guide lines what the joomla organisation expects from users. Not that they should force users, but the fact they are given respect back to the communtiy. As the rules are to specific, we should judge for ourselves, whether it doesn't explot it or not

I don't know what you personally use Joomla! for.. but for many people it is a product and as such a brand. These people range from individuals with a small home business right through to web design and developement companies that use Joomla! as a basis for all or part of their business. I'm quite certain if you added up the value of all commercial work that is done(based on Mambo & Joomla) globally each year it would be in the millions of dollars.

People shouldn't make the assumption that because something is open source, its amateur and for some reason shouldn't aim to match or better commercial products... just look at Linux, Mozilla & Open Office or look at the large corporates such as MS, Sun Microsystems, Novell and IBM that have adopted open source for some development. One of the primary goals of Open Source is that by way of its open nature the developement should exceed commercial software. Any arguement that it shouldn't be presented as a professional product simply because its open source, shows a complete mis-understanding of open source.
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby xperis » Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:47 pm

doublebeast wrote:another thing i want to mension is, why do you call it a brand, it isn't a product or company, it is opensource software. I know it is apposed to sound professional, however it looks to formal, like a kid trying to act like an adult. I think that, it should just put these are guide lines what the joomla organisation expects from users. Not that they should force users, but the fact they are given respect back to the communtiy. As the rules are to specific, we should judge for ourselves, whether it doesn't explot it or not


It sure as heck is a product.  Only the development process and organizational structure of how it is developed is any different from an Adobe or Microsoft.  I think the Kid vs Adult analogy is insulting to the work and the devs that create it.  This product has a historey that includes awards where it beat out Firefox etc.

LINUX is an Open Source Product
Apache is an Open Source Product
Open Office ""

They all have logos and identities that they protect at different levels.

The developers don't give their time to this project just to fill a HD with bits. They want it used.  Just like a product where the license costs money, the way to get the product used is to give it an identy and market it.

FYI - I used Mambo to help get a US Congressman elected last year.  Porche in Brazil uses it. 
Last edited by xperis on Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion about: Joomla! Brand Guide & Logo Usage Released

Postby TomT » Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:18 pm

I agree with manuman and xperis: Joomla is a professional application to create and maintain websites. It's only natural that the Joomla! brand is threated with the same level of professionality and quality as is the Joomla! CMS itself. To me it feels somewhat like a non-discussion this talk about restrictions in the use of the logo. What is important is that we are allowed to change the code when we need it.


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