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just have fun end vote [EDIT MOD: self promotion link deleted] untill its fixed 

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thanks for reopening, sorry for self promotion 

Right at this moment two things are happening.

Firstly OSM's 2006 financials are being finalised so that we can do our required reporting to IRS.
Second is the 501 app which is waiting the first item.

Once these two are out of the way some financial reports for 2006 will be made public.

Connected to this is that I have asked for a new donations component that will allow donators to choose to be listed in a donors listing. This listing would also maintain an automated tally of donations. This is trun will produce the information your after in real time all the time.

Cheers
Shayne

Thanks for the info, Shayne.

Is this likely to be released as open source?
Any timeframe as to when those informations could be expected (not that I have an urgent need to know..)?
Thanks

Hi Joe,

I couldn't tell you at this stage. I'm hopefull that Marko will be doing the component but we have only had initial discussions. I'll let you know as soon as I can.

Not sure it your refering to the financials, but if you are I would say late May (4-5 weeks). Only reason being that there will be a board meeting in May and I'd prefer to present them to the board first.

Cheers
Shayne

so in the begining summer we will have it, thats ok 

Shayne,

Have you thought about civicrm?

Works well with accounting programs etc. and really designed for contrbutions.

A little big

It will do the job, but it´s a waste of resources, like installing community builder to add a registration field, IMO.

Yes, it's big, but it does the job very well. 

your wish is good but contradicts with OSM Duties you must do 3 monthly Budget review, so you are very late, dont you? 

Only people who DO things are allowed to be late...

Thanks for all you do, Shayne.

It doesnt say that OSM have to report to you does it?

no it doesnt, but dont you think OSM should report to comunity? 

Not really....

Thier reports to the IRS is technically the report to the people...
If you have any questions about it the place to get that info is the IRS though the procedures they have set up.

on a side note....

Did I read correctly that you guys are going for your 501-C3 status?

If so there may be some possibilities for the developers both 3pd and core to get some tax benefits for contributing code to the project...
any addons produced that are distributed for free can be considered in kind donations to the project and therefore can write them off...
That should help in regards to getting more volunteers and in getting more 3PDs to develop free add ons...

I think OSM should have the lawyers look at that aspect. I am doing something similar with a local group here (not code related)

OK, first of all, I thought our donations were tax exempt. 

On the topic of being "required" to report to the community, I am surprised that some feel it is unreasonable that an organization who asks for community donations then report receipts and expenses. This is a perfectly appropriate thing to do!

Before someone jumps down my throat, I have given three times in what I consider a generous way to the OSM. And, I do not commercially provide Joomla! services.

There have been many statements made by members of the Joomla! Core Team and the OSM Board that receipts and expenses would be disclosed. When we started the "Support Joomla!" program it was stated that donations and expenditures would be reported monthly. That never took place. The community really did not complain very much, but I know people hoped that the updates would come. Not because there was a lack of trust, either, but because it's the right thing to do!

Last October, after growing community requests, the revenues were reported for only the second - and last time - for a combined period of four months: July 1st 2006 to October 30th 2006. At that time, it was indicated - and it still says so on the page - that the OSM would follow by November 24th, 2006 with a report on expenditures. Again, nothing has been provided and there has also been no information why this report was not made.

I completely understand Shayne saying that the processes are not together to automate the accounting to the point that the OSM can easily provide reporting on a regular basis. I also understand Shayne indicating he wants to share the financials with the board prior to sharing more broadly. Those things make sense and I accept that.

I would have said nothing about this given Shayne's response and I have said nothing about this before. But, I resent the notion that it is somehow inappropriate that the community would ask the OSM to follow through on providing these updates. This is not an inappropriate question and it was not inappropriately asked.

This will all resolve itself when the OSM is able to do what Shayne is saying - build the processes needed to provide updates on a regular basis. I think the community has been very patient and understanding and I think Shayne has worked hard for us. I also believe we will see donations increase and people will not have to ask these questions because our system will be working like it is supposed to work.

Shayne - you do great work for us and this is not a criticism of you or the OSM or the Joomla! core team. These things take time. But, we all need to remember when things aren't working perfectly, questions may be raised. That is not the fault of the one questioning and it is not the fault of the one who has ultimate responsibility - it is actually a good sign because it means our community cares.

I am by no means an expert on US tax regulations but my understanding is that donations are only tax exempt if either the donation is made to a 501c-3 organisation or that the organisation attains 501c-3 status during that tax year.

Boy, I must have missed something. I thought we were a 501c-3 corporation. That is my entirely fault, I am certain, for this misunderstanding. Yes, you are correct on the US Tax implications. Thanks.

I hope the penalty from the IRS for your "faulty" tax return isnt too onerous;)

Brian -

Interesting conclusion you have drawn.

Not that it is any of your business what my husband and I disclose to the US Treasury, but we will not have to make adjustments. Our reporting is still correct, even given this knowledge.

Thanks for your concern, though.
Amy

As I said I have no understanding of the US tax system. The rest was said with my tongue firmly in my cheek

We are in the midst of the 501c-3 application work. We need the finalised 2006 financials first. So its is certain that unles s for some reason we fail to get it we willl be 501c-3 this financial year.

Cheers
Shayne

You and your team are doing great work for us, Shayne, and it's much appreciated. I am certain you have more work than we even can begin to appreciate.

Thank the accountant

I accept the criticisms and understand where they are coming from. For better or worse a slow and measured approach has been taken rather than kneejerk bandaid patches along the way.

Two of the major obstacles have been a less than adequate banking facility for a global organisation & complications arising from international currency transactions. All of which have been rectified with the help of a NYC based CPA and policies set in place to ensure we don't end up here again.

Anyway... short story is that there will be information made public, but it will not be until the second half of May.

Cheers
Shayne

Shayne -

Sincerely, you have nothing to "accept criticism" for! I, for one, very much appreciate not only your contributions and talents but maybe even more importantly, your kind and thoughtful responses when questions are raised. You help make Joomla! better, Shayne.

One suggestion that at the OSM Board might consider. (And, you probably have considered this.) If there was a regular cycle of reporting and series of reports, it would be great. Also, it wouldn't hurt for the OSM to challenge the community with a goal. Now that you have the new board in place, it would be great to have a schedule of financial review, followed by public posting that everyone could count on. I am certain this is the idea.

Personally, I think monthly is far too frequently. But semi-annually or annually is too long. A quarterly update, IMO, would be helpful to keep the community focused on giving.

OK - thanks, again, Shayne - please stay encouraged!
Amy

Way to make a mountain out of a molehill Amy! You still got it!

First off financial Reports should not be just publicly posted on the net for anyone to see...
It should however be available to contributors and members of the ORGANIZATION on request or at the regular general or executive board meetings of the organization  (note that I didn't say community).

An accounting of what is spent is a reasonable disclosure but how much they have and how they plan to spend what is left is really no one's business but the officers and general membership of the organization.

to get 501-C3 status there must some formal organization such as a board of directors which will include a president, treasurer and Secretary at minimum. The rest is defined in their bylaws which would define how they go about approving expenditures and budgets.

With most 501-C3 orgs the most you can get from them is the total they collected and the total they spent in any given year. The rest is provided to the govt in which the organization is incorporated and available through them.

There are many reasons for not disclosing some financials....I'll just note a few as would relate to Joomla...
1 - the board might decide to invest in a licenced technology that other CMS' do not support. disclosing this attempt at partnership might notify the competing CMS' to the new feature and start a bidding war on the license!
2 - The board might decide to hire a librarian to create a new database infrastructure or some other programmer to create technology and by that disclosure could give competitors unfair notice of future plans.
3 - Some financial data could be used against contributors at a later date such as getting a low rate  as an in kind donation that somone from the drupal group could use to chew down that service provider for the same servicel. The company would have no choice but to not give any breaks on price because we didn't protect their contribution from the public!

And being a 501-C3 does not even require you to make financial reports to contributors. It can also be counterproductive towards fund raising. If the org has 1 mil in the bank but has already planned to invest 900K of that and needs 200K more to complete some as of yet unplanned project that disclosure of what is in the kitty despite what you disclose as planned spending might say to a potential donor, "You do what you have planned already and come back to see us when you have spent all that and are ready for the next step!"

Now what they do, how and how much is up to the board of directors and the general members of the organization. they can choose to disclose all or no financials if they so choose and it is supported in their By Laws!

If the only reason you are contributing is to feed your thirst for information I would suggest your contributing for the wrong reasons.

Now I do not know what the organization has planned or what rules they intend to operate under...

All I was pointing out was that if the 501-C3 status is achieved it will open up some possibilities for developers both core and 3PD to get some sort of payment without it costing the project a penny.

the biggest hurdle to getting OS projects developed is the problem of the developers having to pay rent!
They have to take paying jobs that will put the open source project on the back burner!
By allowing them to call their work for J! as an IN-KIND donation they can write off the work for the amount comparable to the amount they would have made if they got paid for that work.
J! won't actually have to pay them that amount but they would provide the tax credit paperwork that would allow them to keep more money from their actual paying jobs and then they would have more money to pay rent which means they don't need to work as much on paying projects and can dedicate more time to the free one!

It can also entice some people who now release commercial add ons to pay the rent a way to make back some money while providing a free product. It gives developers another option to contribute to the project and makes it easier for them to justify the work in some way other than by commercializing it!

The rules for what you can write off vary depending on where you live (in the US it even varies from state to state in some cases) With a 501-C3 there is no limit to what you can write off because the paperwork (an actual reciept so to speak) of what you donated id provided. but there is a general charity writeoff on every tax sheet. You may have to provide checks and payment details to the IRS if they ask and your contributions to each can only be so high. I don't know what the limits are but it is usually around $50 per organization. anything more and you need the tax papers or they will deny it as a write off.

there are oither restrictions even with 501-C3 status such as you can't sell TShirts and write off the entire price of the shirt as donated. In that case you can only write off the amount above the cost of the actual TShirt given. A few more like that....

there is no reason why J! will not get 501-C3 status. Just about anyone can get it provided they do not show any profit or means of income other than donations both monetary and in kind services. they do need to have their financials ready for application and they may need some insurance to protect the organization from lawsuit. But they should be able to qualify rather easily.

So this should not be a point of concern to anyone!

Shayne (manuman) is member of the OSM Board and Board Treasurer. He has indicated that financial reporting will be provided following the May 2007 Board meeting. So, that is coming. Shayne also indicated that the OSM will apply for 501c-3 status. So, more information on that will follow.

Anyone else's viewpoints on whether or not donations and other forms of revenue and expenditures should be reported back to the community should be considered personal opinion. We each have unique and important viewpoints, but, the OSM is the official voice on this matter.

I wouldn't want to discourage donations. Be encouraged to give, please, Joomla! requires our support.

Thanks!
Amy

It's theiur decision...no one said otherwise but if I was their lawyer I would sicourage financial reports to the community and limit it to the memebers of the organization...

If they left them open to anyone they would be the first 501c3 that I have ever seen that does it...

Yes it's my opinion...

Just as everything you have said is no more than yours!

Absolutely true!

Thanks, Mike.
Amy