Daniel Tulp wrote:
Why not? Also extensions are using images, css and other "data" stuff. As read in the previous post that some core membesr are earning money with Templates a lot comes clear to me about this discussion. In my opinion Templates in Joomla cann't exists without the Joomla core functions and should be therefor under the GPL license. If not the same should be applied to commercial extensions. For example a CSS makes uses of the classes defined in Joomla (not?). So a CSS should be part of the GPL as well since it's connected to the elements from Joomla.
Templates can exist without Joomla, just remove the and etc. and you can just place text in there and use it for some static website.
And there lies the big difference between extensions and templates. Extensions can't be used without the calls to the Joomla! API.
hmm if this is the case the same is for extension if they are using their own classes, not? So make bridges will solve the problem for extensions.
If you feel that an individual extension is completely agnostic and uses their own classes and a whole heap of other maybes and conditionals then quite potentially it might be exempt from being required to be part of the GPL, but the only person who knows the answer to that is a lawyer who has the skills to do a code examination and determine if the GPL is applicable to the work. But consider a simple quote component with this simple line from a dummy 1.0 component:
class Quote extends mosDBTable
That alone invokes the Joomla! mosDBTable class which in turn invokes the Joomla! database class. If we remove these immediately this bit of code stops working. If a component has done everything on their own (e.g. written their own DB access class) and everything that their component needs to run is inside it, then they might be exempt because I could take it out and run it on my own without having to install it on Joomla! (e.g. after I extract the extension and configure it the extension just works), but you're going to have to talk to a lawyer about those things.
Also notice that what you mention is not the case within all the templates. I've seen a lot of templates which are "joomla" code and classes inside of the code. Beside the functions calls above makes that the template that is sold that way will only function within Joomla and no other CMS. Therefor it's developed for Joomla and should be compliant under the full GPL license.
I also have a template that has two lines of Joomla! code, I could make it completely agnostic and run a few checks to see if those functions exists and immediately it becomes a static, non Joomla! powered page, or some slight alterations turn it into a Drupal template.
And about the fact that some core members are selling templates: I find that a conflict of interest. In my opinion these guys should choose: stay in the core team or develop commercial templates. But doing both is not clear as we have seen in the discussion over here.
If you are personally willing to pay the salaries of the people who freely write Joomla! then I'm sure they will be happy to stop selling templates to meet your conflict of interest problems. You yourself can also join the development working group (or any number of other working groups such as design) but make sure while you're doing that you aren't doing anything that might conflict with what you do in Joomla!. You know what, this is silly. Its not a conflict of interest because the reason he is there is because he was making templates already and he is good at it. He volunteers his time for free, like everyone else on Core or Working Groups, to make Joomla! better. If he sells commercial templates on the side, or commercial components or commercial anythings to make money so that he can survive to donate his time for free then thats fine by me. Everyone has interests but not every one makes the effort to make Joomla! better and every one has to eat and live somewhere at the end of the day to make Joomla! better. You could call out each one of the Core for having some form of conflict of interest and then you would have no Core team, would you do all the work then?
Again, I haven't seen an implementation of this but its my view, consult with a lawyer about a specific case for sound advice, my thoughts would be that there is no direct way to integrate Flash into Joomla! which puts it into the client server model (e.g. I go to a Joomla! website with IE on Windows doesn't mean that Microsoft has to GPL those products).
Why should we consult every time a lawyer to get advice if this is possible? We have better things to do with our money (lawyers are not cheap) and time.
The core team must make clear what the license restricts to. As mentioned before my vote is that Joomla templates are the same as extensions (although other think different) since they cannot function without the Joomla classes and functions. Thereby they are restricted under the GPL license.
The Core Team isn't lawyers. The Core Team doesn't know your code. The Core Team can't judge what your extension is or isn't. We asked our lawyers and they said that in general this is how the world works. If you disagree with our lawyers advice because in your specific individual case
there is something unique then you
need to get legal advice on your specific individual case
. We made our position clear, we can't make it any clearer than that: simple rule, make everything GPL and you will have no issue.
Make it GPL and you will have no issue.
Now, you pay your lawyer to examine your code. You pay your lawyer to judge in their opinion if your extension has to be put under the GPL or if a non GPL compliant license would be acceptable. We're not in the business of being big bad evil people, we just want to slowly move from a lot of non compliant extensions to all completely compliant extensions. If you feel you do not have enough information to continue your business then you ask someone who does know, and that person is a lawyer. If you have specifics you need to talk everything through with a lawyer. There are tonnes of hypothetical cases for every example but they don't have every little detail that a lawyer would need to know to give you advice. Something may not be possible, and it may, I'm not a lawyer and I most definately know the specifics of your case, thats why you go to your lawyer and ask them about the specifics and what they think. If something is wrong, then that lawyer can defend you if it is required. What I suggest doesn't constitute legal advice which is why I keep saying "talk to a lawyer".
About the core team: My vote is for core team members that have no commercial interests related to Joomla by selling extensions and templates. If so I've my serious doubt about the decision of the Joomla explanation about the GPL license and templates.
You can vote all you like. You can even leave if you like. You can have doubts about the information that our lawyers have told us. This isn't a popularity contest, we're not commercial software, and we're happy for you to come and go if you please. We're not going to bow to commercial pressure just because some people don't like it and want the 'toys' thrown back in, we're continuing on the path we have always been. We've been educated by lawyers about the way things should work. If you don't things should work that way, then consult with your lawyer and clarify things. If they disagree in your specific case that things shouldn't work that way then fine, you're welcome to continue down that path. If the Core Team had _no_ commercial interests there would be nobody involved, even on the working group level. Being paid to administer a Joomla! site means that you have a commercial interest in it. The only way to get around not having a commercial interest in the project would be to run a home or charity website. If you run a business website then you have a commercial interest in the project by definition. Having a completely noncommercial team of people work on a product is near on impossible, but why don't you do it? Join the development working group and make sure that you don't make any profit from Joomla! what so ever. That means you don't charge any money to deploy websites, give support, write extensions (incl templates as you specificly lined out) or get paid to maintain a Joomla! instance. If it in any way links with Joomla! you _must_ give it away for free if you are to do it.
If you have specific questions for specific cases ask your lawyer. They know the answer. We have done our best to inform you and if you don't agree then we cannot help it.
Let me repeat again: if people want to know the "what ifs", then ask your lawyer. We don't know the answer.