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Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:25 pm 
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An alpha release is forecasted for Wednesday.
Some are working on SVN already.

Joomla! 1.1 is all utf-8 !
This means all your .ini files shall be saved as utf-8.

No choice anymore! JOY!  :)

For the moment, to test, you may create a db with the default encoding of your verson of PHPMySql for those that have no way of choosing utf-8.
All encoding matters shall be handled in core.
Not yet in the alpha version, but hopefully for release.

BTW: please do not upgrade any site for now as some more testing is necessary.

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Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:57 am 
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Hello

We are close to finish translating all the files.
but the forced  utf-8 thing ...is temporary? Am i right ?

you will let us choose our charset? ???

I noticed that in the current files on svn< what I did is removing the following line

from Joomla_admin index.php file and it works with my charset  :)

Thak you infograf

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Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:05 am 
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elasibe wrote:
Hello

We are close to finish translating all the files.
but the forced  utf-8 thing ...is temporary? Am i right ?

you will let us choose our charset? ???

I noticed that in the current files on svn< what I did is removing the following line

from Joomla_admin index.php file and it works with my charset  :)

Thak you infograf

It is not temporary.

As I wrote already, the ini files have to be utf-8. This is now compulsory.
All English ini files are now utf8.
You may see (from yesterday SVN) that in english.ini, some parts concerning the encodings has been deleted (end of file).
As of today, it is:
Code:
[Metadata]
__NAME=English
__ISO=utf-8
__LOCALE=en_GB
__ISOCODE=en
__RTL=0

The encoding is decided in the index.php for front and back end
(your SVN check-out is older, apparently, as what you quote is not there anymore)

Code:
header(' Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8');

is now what you get.

Therefore, your arabic.ini file should contain:
Code:
[Metadata]
__NAME=Arabic
__ISO=utf-8
__LOCALE=ar
__ISOCODE=ar
__RTL=1


And all ini files saved as utf-8.

Hope this helps.

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Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:51 pm 
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Hello

Thank you infograf for your quick replay

what with components and modules that have  been translated in the past  to my language as charset
should we update them all to utf-8? or its should work fine with utf-8?

also what with sites already working with windows charsets?Are there any special things to do for converting to utf-8
thanks

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Last edited by elasibe on Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:27 pm 
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English: __RTL=0

Arabic: __RTL=1

Sorry for stupid q., but why diferent numbers?

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Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:29 pm 
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as far as i know its all about right to left and left to right

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Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:00 pm 
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win2k3 wrote:
English: __RTL=0

Arabic: __RTL=1

Sorry for stupid q., but why diferent numbers?

RTL stands for Right-to-Left; the 0 = false; and the 1 = true
The idea is that if the language file set is for an RTL language (such as Arabic, Hebrew, Farsi, Urdu and others) then the value of the meta-data constant should be 1 and for all LTR languages (such as English and a few others  ;) ) the value should be 0

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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:02 am 
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elasibe wrote:

also what with sites already working with windows charsets?Are there any special things to do for converting to utf-8
thanks

This should be taken care of in core.
But we will certainly need your input by testing.

Not in alpha though, please. It is not implemented yet.

Thererfore I repeat: for testing only. Do not try to adapt an ancient site.

I'll ask concerning translation of add-ons, but the logic may be that the strings be also utf-8.
It is forecasted that add-ons should have also ini files in the future.

I will ask a dev to reply to this here.

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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:50 am 
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This shift to utf-8 without a choice to stay at the iso encodings once again breaks backward compatibility. :(

Guess it's time to evaluate another cms that does not break all private and 3rd party add-ons every now and then.


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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:18 am 
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Peter Koch wrote:
This shift to utf-8 without a choice to stay at the iso encodings once again breaks backward compatibility. :(

Guess it's time to evaluate another cms that does not break all private and 3rd party add-ons every now and then.


@Peter

I have asked the Devs to answer to you ASAP.

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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:23 am 
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Peter Koch wrote:
This shift to utf-8 without a choice to stay at the iso encodings once again breaks backward compatibility. :(

Guess it's time to evaluate another cms that does not break all private and 3rd party add-ons every now and then.


Hey Peter,

we are aware of this problem. On the other side we have the problem that the UTF-8 is only a 100% go or no go. We can't swtich partly.

Any suggestion how we should proceed?

Alex

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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:11 am 
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I am aware that using utf-8 and iso at same time is not possible (or just with a unaceptable performence lost by encoding on the fly), also I understand that utf-8 is the right way to go in long term. However why not give the user choise what encoding scheme he generally wants to use on his site?

While I am not savvy with the new ini file approach, I try to explain with the 'old' define approach and the germanf translation: You could keep backward compatibility by providing 2 sets of translation files for frontend as well as for backend such as:

germanf.php -> iso-8859-1 encoding, same filenames to keep 100% backward compatibility
germanfu.php -> utf-8 encoding.

This way a slow shift would be possible. All existing 3rd party components would continue to work as long as the user choose germanf als language. If the user chooses germanfu as language, he is aware that he needs get/make appropriate germanfu.php and admin.germanfu.php files for all add-ons too.


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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:21 am 
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Peter,

ISO-8859-1 is a subset of UTF-8. Any files that are ISO-8859-1 will work without any problems in the new system. There is no reason for a approach. For more info on the UTF-8 standard u can read theUTF-8 and Unicode FAQ

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Last edited by Jinx on Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:45 am 
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You need to understand that not all special characters of iso-8859 above 7F are available in utf-8, but only the "most important special characters". While german may be covered quite good, for example many special characters used in spanish are no longer mapping correct, probably because spanish people were not represented in the commitee which decided what are the "most important special characters".


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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:11 am 
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That is correct.

If you have any coded characters belonging to the upper half of the iso-8859-* code range and you want to advertise the datastream as utf-8  then you must either represent those characters above 127 by using & representations in HTML (recommended on the internet), or transform the data into a genuine utf-8-encoded datastream.

Joomla will provide a solution to transform ISO-8859-1 into UTF-8 by making use of the different transfomating functions available in PHP or will provide an alternative if such a function isn't supported.

Another solution is to simply re-save the laguage files as UTF-8.

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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:22 pm 
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hi i am working to upgrade my xoops to joomla/mambo in the future so where can i download the alpha version to change all javascript and xml files for support arabic like i did before with mambo 4.5.1x and 4.5.0x ?

Part deleted by MOD, infograf768: second time, fuga.
Please change this attitude.
Here we collaborate, not flame.
Any one may create a translation project on Joomlaforge, if one is not happy with anybody else translation.


Your question is out of topic btw. Alpha will be released later on today and your experience with 4.5.x series (i.e. changing javascript and xml) has to be reviewed, as we use the ini file system and RTL is in core. Please read the roadmap and announcements.


Last edited by infograf768 on Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:41 pm 
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The Alpha is not yet released. You can download it thru the developer.joomla.org subversion system or wait a little bit.

Alex

Fuga wrote:
hi i am working to upgrade my xoops to joomla/mambo in the future so where can i download the alpha version to change all javascript and xml files for support arabic like i did before with mambo 4.5.1x and 4.5.0x ?




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Last edited by infograf768 on Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:39 pm 
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I was looking for a good character transcoding for supporting international URIs in Community Builder: e.g. index.php?....&user=gabrièlle, as international URIs are in UTF-8 always...

- looking at Joomla! 1.1 svn, I also saw that all variable codings have now been hardcoded to UTF-8.  :-\
- looking at Joomla! 1.0.3, I saw that the transcoding was not really done
- looking at PHP manual, saw that the nice character transcoding library is NOT a standard install, and that support (e.g. in html_entity_decode) is starting with PHP 4.3, and for Multi-Byte-Character-Sets (MBCS) only in PHP 5.0.

I'm wondering if core mambo (and 3PD) UTF-8 support is still backwards compatible to PHP 4.1's prerequisite, or if PHP 4.3 prerequisite will not be implied by the switch to UTF-8...

Here a small piece of library code which took me hours to put together, which may save time to others to try to get php 4.1 - 5.0 compatibility for this stored using the internal encoding: $username = utf8ToISO($_REQUEST['user']);

Code:

function unhtmlentities ($string, $quotes, $charset) {
   if ((phpversion() < '5.0.0') && ((phpversion() < '4.3.0') || !((strncmp($charset,"ISO-8859",8)==0) || ereg("125",$charset)))) {
      // For 4.1.0 =< PHP < 4.3.0 use this function instead of html_entity_decode: also php < 5.0 does not support UTF-8 outputs !
      $trans_tbl = get_html_translation_table (HTML_ENTITIES);
      $trans_tbl = array_flip ($trans_tbl);
      return strtr ($string, $trans_tbl);
   } else  {
      return html_entity_decode ($string, $quotes, $charset);
   }
}

function utf8ToISO ($string) {
   $iso = str_replace(array("charset="), array(""),_ISO);
   if ($iso == "UTF-8") {
      return $string;
   } else if (strncmp($iso,"ISO-8859-1",9)==0) {
      return utf8_decode($string);
   } else {
      return unhtmlentities(htmlentities($string,ENT_NOQUOTES,"UTF-8"),ENT_NOQUOTES,$iso);
   }
}


Hope this can save some time to others.

In my quest to transcribing character sets, I've come to same conclusion as core team: Unless all is UTF-8, it's a headache which can't be correctly resolved.

I've made following assumption in Joomla! 1.x regarding character sets:

1) database storage and html output do match the same encoding, which is also used internally in php.
2) multilanguage website should have the same "_ISO" encoding into all their language files to work correctly and respect rule above.

Questions:
a) Are my assumptions right ?
b) if no, where is the corresponding transcription code in Joomla! ?
c) is there a way in the $database class to see in which encoding the database is stored ?
d) will php 4.3 be a prerequisite for Joomla! 1.1 or will it stay with php 4.1 and up ?

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Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:22 pm 
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Beat wrote:
In my quest to transcribing character sets, I've come to same conclusion as core team: Unless all is UTF-8, it's a headache which can't be correctly resolved.

I've made following assumption in Joomla! 1.x regarding character sets:

1) database storage and html output do match the same encoding, which is also used internally in php.
2) multilanguage website should have the same "_ISO" encoding into all their language files to work correctly and respect rule above.

Questions:
a) Are my assumptions right ?
b) if no, where is the corresponding transcription code in Joomla! ?
c) is there a way in the $database class to see in which encoding the database is stored ?
d) will php 4.3 be a prerequisite for Joomla! 1.1 or will it stay with php 4.1 and up ?


Beat hello, you are definitely quite "on beat" with your assumptions!  :)

There has been quite a debate on the utf-8 issue in the S&G group and as the dust is settling it can be summed up more or less as follows:

1) Joomla! 1.1 will have only one flavour for all languages and that is utf-8.
2) All stored data (content) and language files are expected to be in utf-8 encoding.
3) Backward compatibility regarding PHP will be achieved using a Joomla! supplied transcoding library. As you mentioned not all PHP versions support utf conversions and transcoding is not always activated. So PHP 4.1 and up may be OK. The API of this library will be provided with guidance to 3PD's
4) Backward compatibility regarding MySQL versions prior to 4.1.2 will also be addressed. There are some side effects when utf-8 data is stored in a db that does not support utf. These issues can apparently be handled in code and this is WIP. The goal is to still be able to operate on MySQL 4.0. This involves checking of database versions and available charsets and collations. Most likely there will be 'database' class fields indicating the 'mode' of operation depending on the database version and charset. 3PD's will also need this kind of service.

I seems that you have already been down this path. Any pitfalls that you can point out will be deeply appreciated.

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Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:39 am 
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davidgal wrote:
There has been quite a debate on the utf-8 issue in the S&G group and as the dust is settling it can be summed up more or less as follows:

1) Joomla! 1.1 will have only one flavour for all languages and that is utf-8.
2) All stored data (content) and language files are expected to be in utf-8 encoding.


So the final decision is taken to break backward compatibility by allowing no choise to stay at latin charsets?

Is this really the last word?


Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:58 pm 
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Peter Koch wrote:
So the final decision is taken to break backward compatibility by allowing no choise to stay at latin charsets?


Actually the decesion we took is one to support more languages in a correct manner and reduce backwards compatibility isses so the real minimum. We are convinced that most of the existing sites that don't have 'special characters problems now' won't have any after an upgrade.

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Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:06 pm 
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Jinx wrote:
Peter Koch wrote:
So the final decision is taken to break backward compatibility by allowing no choise to stay at latin charsets?


Actually the decesion we took is one to support more languages in a correct manner and reduce backwards compatibility isses so the real minimum. We are convinced that most of the existing sites that don't have 'special characters problems now' won't have any after an upgrade.


Hallo Peter!

I've spent numerous hours to try to understand how to best handle different charctersets between database, display, internal variables, language files (core and component-related) in my component, including the international URIs (which are UTF-8 by standard), and have come to the conclusions that:

1) converting at all places to get compatibility is not only a headache, but almost "mission impossible" while keeping compatibility with standard php installs back to php 4.1 and sql 4.0.

2) that UTF-8 is a tremendous simplification, which is compatible for almost all visible signs with ISO-8859-1 and -15 (at least for German and French).

3) in all cases, when having multi-language support on a web-site, all language files should use the same character-sets for it to work correctly already now.

I've also been against the hardcoding of "UTF-8" instead of the global define _ISO in Joomla! 1.1, but interestingly in Joomla! 1.0.3:
- UTF-8 is already used in the English file without (major) problems.
- The German file sets ISO-8859-1 and uses &-escapings for characters (correctly), which are compatible with UTF-8.
- The French file sets also ISO-8859-1 but uses in fact ISO-8859-15 (or UTF-8 as those are the same) accented characters (which is incorrect, but common and doesn't disturb).

I tried hard to give better transcoding support for other languages in my component for Joomla 1.0.x, but came finally to same conclusion as the core-team, given the poor transcoding support in standard PHP installs (the nice php multi-byte support library is an optional install).

Only the hardcoding of "UTF-8" as a string instead of using a global define _CHARSET or whatever name could be slightly better...

Also, the database conversion from ISO-8859-15 or whatever to UTF-8 should be transparent to the admin at upgrade...

What other backwards incompatibilities are you worried about ?

Besti Grüess aus der Schweiz,
Beat

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Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:56 pm 
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Jinx wrote:
Peter Koch wrote:
So the final decision is taken to break backward compatibility by allowing no choise to stay at latin charsets?


Actually the decesion we took is one to support more languages in a correct manner and reduce backwards compatibility isses so the real minimum. We are convinced that most of the existing sites that don't have 'special characters problems now' won't have any after an upgrade.


Great to hear. I was worried that I need to maintain 2 sets of my components, one with UTF-8 for users with 1.1.x and one with ISO translation files for 1.0.x and mambo 4.5.x. But I understand now that this is not necessary. :)


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Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:17 pm 
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Peter Koch wrote:
Jinx wrote:
Peter Koch wrote:
So the final decision is taken to break backward compatibility by allowing no choise to stay at latin charsets?


Actually the decesion we took is one to support more languages in a correct manner and reduce backwards compatibility isses so the real minimum. We are convinced that most of the existing sites that don't have 'special characters problems now' won't have any after an upgrade.


Great to hear. I was worried that I need to maintain 2 sets of my components, one with UTF-8 for users with 1.1.x and one with ISO translation files for 1.0.x and mambo 4.5.x. But I understand now that this is not necessary. :)


As I understand it, "reducing backward compatibility" is primarily in relation to older PHP and MySQL versions which have problems with utf-8.

In respect to language files, version 1.1.x will expect them to be in utf-8 encoding. This obviously poses a problem for a component currently installed in mambo 4.5.x which, for example, has a a Greek language file used with an appropriate Greek charset value in the meta tag (the _ISO setting). At the very least, for the same component to work in Joomla! 1.1.x, the language file will need to be re saved as utf-8.

There are likely to be some specific string handling operations in a component that will need to be modified to correctly handle utf-8 data. The intention is to provide these required functions in the Joomla API (thus solving PHP compatibility issues). However, there may be a need to modify components for Joomla! 1.1.x.

Taking the utf-8 route is a major milestone. It involves quite a lot of internal changes in Joomla! and, in my view, it is not realistic to expect all 3PD CMBT's to sail through the change with no implications. It appears that the utmost is being done to to minimize the impact and to provide API resources that are at least independent of server and db environment. The good news is that the community seems to be almost unanimous about the need to take the utf-8 route.

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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:38 am 
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What I am worried about is that files saved with UTF-8 encoding by using just normal NOTEPAD have some strange symbols like a "signture" left by Windows. Then when you try to use those files on Linux server, those symbols appear on the live site.

I have tried different editors in order to prent this, but it still includes this 3-4 symbols appeared in different places.

Can someone give a good file editor, which will prevent further problems.

I can not give more details about this problem, as I don't know it. The solution was - open the lang files under Linux:
enter, backspace, save and the problem was gone


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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:45 am 
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Yeah Notepad is no good.
You may try Jedit (a java editor).
Please save as utf-8 no BOM

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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:30 pm 
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Can you give that as advice in some "more official" way to the community, as it really can cause bang-bang situations.


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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:06 am 
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This would imply making a list of OpenSource editors usable on different platforms.
It could indeed be provided on the Dev site, along with the part on languages.
David's job.  :)

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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:08 am 
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BTW ivo

you have release a 1.0.8.1 patch in your project on Forge.
As this is no official patch (it is SVN as a few days ago), I suggest you add a read-me file in it and some explanations on what it is exactly for the users to know.  ;)

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Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf · http://www.info-graf.fr · GMT +1
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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:13 am 
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It is generally having some changes from the SVN from the official repository, related to bugs in 1.0.8

Nothing done by me really, just fixes. I test them, saw that work, so this might be useful. As this patch applies only the full hardcoded Bulgarian translation, I post the changes in http://www.joomla-bg.com.

Anyway in future I will take in mind your suggestions, because you are damn right.


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