Joomla! Discussion Forums

I must first say I am sorry if this is in the wrong place...

Bear with me guys an girls, I am a smart geek and I have been in computers/web design for 12 years, but I cannot wrap my brain around the structure of Category>Section>Item to save my life or build a Joomla site correctly with it.

I have basically set every single page as static since I don't understand the structure theory - which I know is bad.

Is there someone patient enough and willing to help me understand this via email, show you my site map and figure out how to get this flowing correctly.

For my site map I can see things not fitting in a category or a section, maybe a section but not knowing how to manipulate the category. The light bulb just has not come on yet and I am getting very frustrated, because if I get it - then I've got it.

I just got started and I love Joomla and would like to build more sites using it but I need some guidance to get me past this hurdle - then I am home free.

Who shall I be forever indebted to?

Thanks, Katherine

Katherine -

First of all, Welcome to Joomla! 

I wanted to quickly give you a few hints. Many find Anna's tips makes it very clear. So, certainly give that some focus.

I like to start with a Mindmap. Freemind is free/open source software to help with that.

Part of the reason Section-Categories are difficult is because they don't matter as much as the menu. The menuing is what your end user will see - and you can have an INFINITE number of nested menus.

I organize my mind map around the central topic (circle) and start thinking of basic sections (2nd level circles).

Beneath sections, I create categories. I will create a category for every subject that requires a blog layout. A blog layout simply means multiple articles will be shown on a "topic" page. So, if it's news, or agendas, or new members, or my daily blog, there will be many of these same items - typically organized backwards by date - so, they must be a category.

Many times, I have pages that stand alone. Those I can store into a category - even if they really don't relate to one another. It's just the bucket I place them in.

Keep in mind, you only have two layers - sections - then categories - after which the real thing - the article appears. So, you have to break up your subjects so that they fit in two layers - plus the article.

Again, don't worry if you really have content that is many layers deep - World - Continent - Country - State - City. You can "stack" these into many collections of Section-Category and your end users will never know since the menu items are what they see. Those CAN be organized into deeper and deeper levels.

Read Anna's tips. And, rest assured, *this topic* is the tough one to get your mind around; but, you'll get it!
Amy

I think of it as a newspaper. You have your main sections - News, Metro, Sports and then each section has it's own categories.

So under the Sports section you have Highlights, Baseball, Baskeball, Soccor, Volleyball, etc.

And then under each category you have individual articles.

Well the light bulb came on. I finally figured it out but I want to make sure I have got it right...

C=Category S=Section I=Content Item

Lets say I am wanting to start one page for FAQs for the entire site.

C - FAQ
S - FAQ
I - Static page

Yes I know I am still leaning towards static pages but as I see it that would be the best option.
So I went in and created a FAQ Category, then the FAQ Section and then I hit the Add New Content button. I was confused when I did not get a page to ask me what "type" of page I wanted to create - blog style etc... Where is it that I get to choose the page type. I use to run into it all the time and I constantly hit static. What step am I missing to get those choices?

Thanks again,

Kat

You are getting there! Now, the time you will answer that question - "blog style, etc" - is when you build the menu item.

Kat - Check out Anna's Tips. The questions you are answering and the path I see you heading will be aided GREATLY by that mini-tutorial. You'll be amazed! (And, I want to hear if it helped you!)

Amy

Sections are top level...Categories are within Sections...Content Items are within Categories...same concept as a file system main directory that has one of more subdirectories, wiht each subdirectory having a collection of files.

1. Create a Section called FAQ.
2. Create a Category within that section called FAQ.
3. Go to Content ...when you get there select the "New" button (next to last button in upper left.
4. When form appears to compose your content item, you will see two select boxes...one for Sections and one for Categorys...you should see selection in both for FAQ...choose these.
5. Compose  your Content Item (i.e., an FAQ) and and save it.

6.Then go to Menu and select which menu you want it to appear in  and select New.
7. You can then select what you want it to look like, i.e., blog, hierarchical Section > Category > content Item pages or whatever.


Think I got this all right...if any mistakes I'm sure others will correct me.  Hope this helps.

Yup - that's good! Of course, Kat already figured out steps 1 through 5 when she created the section and category and item, as she described. I understand her question to be more of that same general confusion most of us had (all of us?) when we started using Joomla!, which is how conceptually do all of these pieces fit together - the "Joomla! Structure" as Kat correctly puts it. I found that to be a challenge, as well, and many of us have found Anna's tips to clarify those concepts. Roger's example is also simple and excellent.

Thanks to all who have helped. I now understand the structure. I am glad to hear the new version of Joomla will be less strict to those structured rules.

That was the only thing holding me back, I pretty much had everything else down, modules, positions, templates, the endless CSS - you know the real hard stuff.

One last question or maybe opinion... In general on the code of a template, is it better erase the code you don't want or just comment it out, say like the banner position. I am thinking the answer will be commenting it out since it would be nice to have the code around if you want to use it later.
Thanks again,

Katherine

Commenting it out is an option. But I prefer to make a backup copy and then edit out what I don't need. This keeps the template lean and trim. So it helps the site load faster. Not much, but every little bit helps.

Amy, I'm curious how you can "stack" collections of Section-Category to access content layers deep. Using your analogy above, here is what I want to do:

Clicking a North America menu link would go to a "page" containing links to United States and Canada.
Clicking United States would bring you to a "page" with links to Florida and California.
Clicking Florida would bring you to a "page" containg links to Miami and Tampa
Clicking Miami would bring you to an article about such.

How would this be done? I don't see how to link a Category to another Section, only to an Article.

btw - Thanks for the tip for FreeMind Looks like another great program to get my head around

I'm not familiar with Amy's solution..and it may be a better one...but this extension might provide the capability you need:

http://extensions.joomla.org/component/ ... 35/#action

Thanks for responding to this, Harry, I missed this question. I also have not used that tool. Have you tried it before? Curious what it does.



That's an easy example because you are only need a menu system where the higher level items (continents, countries, states) link to single article "home pages" for each level. The article would contain links going down to the next level (ex. each continent would like to it's countries). Eventually, as you drilled down, further and further, you would find a collection of articles about cities.

North America: menu item links to article with links to each country, using the menu item URL from below.
-- Country 1
-- Country 1+
-- United States: menu item links to article with links to each state, using the menu item URL from below.
  -- Alabama
  -- etc
  -- Florida: Create sections for each state - but I would still use a single article page with links to each city, using the menu item URL from below. (Personally, I don't like section lists and section blogs would mix up the cities.)
      -- City 1 (Category Blog menu item, automatically creating links to each article about each city)
        -- Article 1
        -- Article 2
        -- Article N

In the cases above, the only sections would be states/provinces; the only categories would be cities; because articles are only needed for cities. I might create one other "dummy" section and category to store the "home pages" for each level. Everything other than a state/province or city would be a menu item linked to a single article, which had links to items in the next lower level.

That requires no stacking.

When it gets tricky is when you also need articles at some (all) of the higher levels, as well. Adding to your example, let's say that we are also going to have articles about the countries, in addition to the cities. I'll post something in a bit that shows how to use MindMap, and things you might consider as you design your Joomla! structures.

HTH,
Amy

Thanks, Harry, looks like a great extension. I'm going to look into this a bit further.

Amy,

Sorry for the delay but it is taking me some time trying to get my head around this... and still quite confused A few questions:

If we are creating articles for the list of countries and cities why do we create a section for the states and category for the cities instead of just creating other manually created lists?

What do you mean by "menu item Url from below"?

Please explain "a menu item linked to a single article" in your statement "Everything other than a state/province or city would be a menu item linked to a single article, which had links to items in the next lower level."

I apparently misunderstood your reference to 'stacking'. I thought my example was what you were referring to.

Could you please give an example of 'stacking' and how it is incorporated. It is likely that as I move forward I will be requiring articles at  the higher levels.

Thanks

Ted -

In your "challenge" question, you indicated articles are ONLY at the City level.



My response, above, was related to your "challenge" question, which essentially called for a framework that drills down from continent, to country, to state, into city, where articles would be found. That example is easily managed using Joomla!'s menu system.



When I finished explaining how I would implement your "challenge" example, then I said:


And, then real life stepped in, I got busy and have not had a chance to complete and publish that example for you. But, I will finish it as soon as I am able and post it here.

Now, see if my response makes sense given the requirements you posed. Even understanding that example will help you see how to work within Joomla!'s structure without limiting your site content. The "secret" is relying more on the menu items than the "section - category - article framework" to build in your site hierarchy.

It is confusing, and I apologize for not being clear.
Amy

Amy,

No, your response was clear, and appreciated. However, I did have some questions below which still remain:

If we are creating articles for the list of countries and cities why do we create a section for the states and category for the cities instead of just creating other manually created article lists?

What do you mean by "menu item Url from below"?

Please explain "a menu item linked to a single article" in your statement "Everything other than a state/province or city would be a menu item linked to a single article, which had links to items in the next lower level."


As for the stacking example, I look forward to it but there is no rush on my part, I have plenty here to digest.

Thanks

I would create a category for cities because it would allow me to use a category blog (or list) menu item which will link all of the articles for a city. When I add an article, it'll be there. When I remove a article, there are no links to change.

I would create a section for states because it would help me filter my city list when updating and I would also have the option of creating a section blog (or list) that would show all the cities in Florida.



When building a hierarchy, you have to build the menuing system in reverse order. (Think of it as building a real structure.)

Create the categories blog menu items for city. Then you have the URLs for each city.

Then, you can create your article that lists all of the cities - and link using the URL you just created. (This is the menu item URL below.) State is above City. Make the City URLs. Then, you can create links in the State level.



Step 1: Create State of Florida Section.

Step 2: Create City of Miami Category and Create City of Tampa Category.

Step 3: Create articles:
Create Miami articles 1) Nightlife in Miami 2) Schools in Miami.
Create Tampa articles 1) Nightlife in Tampa 2) Schools in Tampa.

Step 4: Create Menu Item with Blog Category Type to City of Miami Category. (Capture URL #1.)
Create Menu Item with Blog Category Type to City of Tampa Category. (Capture URL #2.)

Step 5: Create Landing Page Section and Landing Page Category.

Step 6: Create Florida article (in Landing Page section and category) that has Links to Miami with URL #1 and Tampa with URL #2.

Step 7: Create Menu Item for a Single Article linking to Florida article. (Capture URL #3.)

Steps 8 and 9: Repeat Steps 6 and 7 for United States article and menu item linking to Florida with URL #3. (Capture URL #4)

Steps 10 and 11: Repeat Steps 8 and 9 for North America article and menu item linking to United States with URL #4. (Capture URL #5)

Steps 12 and 13: Repeat Steps 10 and 11 for World article and menu item linking to North America with URL #5. (No more URLs!)



lol! I know the feeling! Let me know if that's clear as mud! 
Amy

Ahh... lightbulb moment

And thanks so much for the step-by-step... I'll play with this for a while... and let you know how I progress...

Again, thanks!

Amy,

How and where does one capture the Url as in "(Capture URL #1.)"?

The only Url I see when creating the Menu Item with Blog Category Type is Link: "index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog"

Thanks

Good clarification question. 

Save the menu item - click it from the front end - then, capture the URL.

With SEF URLs not activated, it will look more like: index.php?option=com_content&view=section&id=4&Itemid=37

With SEF URLs on, it will look like words: florida or us-florida-miami or us-florida/miami (those are your article aliases)

Looks like you are digging in - good stuff!
Amy

Of course! Duh! LOL!

Yes, "digging in"... deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper...

A related question, presently I do not have SEF Urls activated but when I do will these Urls have to be changed on the Article pages?

Thanks again!

Hm. That is a good point and something I had not considered. My guess is Joomla! would translate "normal" URLs to the new SEF URL, without any problem. It would certainly fail going the other direction (SEF URLs to "normal"). That will present challenges when moving a site between development environments, like windows, where the .htaccess file cannot be used, and a normal webhosting environment.

No good answer to that. I welcome good answers from others!

Don't think SO hard! 
Amy

Eureka! :)

Amy,

Following your instructions I was successful in created the hierarchy:

World > North America > United States > Florida > Miami > Articles

A couple of questions:

I also created a new 'hidden' menu to contain all the menu links except for "World" so that they won't show on the main menu. I trust this is correct?

Is there a way to show the full navigation links (not sure if this is the proper name) that shows at the top of each page as you decend? Now it simply shows "Home  >> United States" (depending on page) instead of "Home >> World >> North America >> United States" which would allow you to go directly to a particular page instead of having to continually click the 'Back' button.

And, presently the "City of ..." pages are shown in Category Blog Layout, as per the instructions. I would prefer to have these shown in a Category List Layout and to click thru to the Article. When I try to change these to the Category List Layout the Articles do not show. I have the Parameters Component set to the same settings that I use to display other Articles in other menu items. What am I missing?

Thanks

Excellent!


Ted - this I don't understand. I would expect your menu to look like this:

North America
-- America
    -- Alabama
    -- xxx
    -- Florida
        -- Miami
        -- Tampa
-- Canada
  -- etc.

Are you saying you don't WANT those levels to show up as menu items? If so, we wouldn't need to make them to begin with.  I think I am missing something.



Yes, the breadcrumbs will follow the menu items. If you show the menu items, then the breadcrumbs will be there. I think this relates to confusion from the previous question.



Personally, I do not like the Section or Category List. If I want a simple list, I prefer to do so with a blog layout. I make the "Leading" a larger number - 10 for example, then just turn columns and intro to 0. That provides a more elegant list.

But, a category list should provide the same articles that a category blog does.  But, I just looked and the Category List appears to be "broken" right now. That's why. Just development bugs.

Mainly - I'm confused about the hidden menu.
Amy

Sorry about that! Yes, the menu now looks the way you describe above (I discovered the 'Parent Item' :)) however I prefer to have just the 'World' link on the menu.

Since my last message, because of 'Parent Item' I now get the breadcrumbs to show:

When 'World' is clicked: Home >> World
However when 'United States' states is clicked on the page link list: Home >> North America
And on subsequent clicks on the pages: Home >> North America >> United States >> Florida >> City Of Miami

I expect that 'World' is missing on the latter two examples is simply because I have 'World' in Main Menu and the others showing in the 'hidden' menu.



You indicate above that it could be set up so that only 'World' would show on the main menu, with the drill-down being done by the 'pages' and that the breadcrumbs would follow through. If this is the case I'd be very interested in knowing this 'other option'.

As always, appreciate it!

One thing I appreciate about working with someone articulate and patient, like you have been, is remembering all of the details that, eventually, you simply take for granted.

Yes - Telling you about 'Parent Item' would have provide a helpful piece of information! Sorry!  :-[



I think something is a bit Quirky with "home." I posted a request in the wish list today for slight changes after reading your comments - been meaning to for awhile.

Here's the best "work around" right now. Turn "Home" off in the pathway module. Then, in your Frontpage menu option, make certain it says "world."

I don't think it works properly, so, I can't give you more than that.


OK. I see what you are thinking I was thinking.

If you want World in the menu - then drill downs into - City, without menu options, then, yes, create your menu, publish it and put it into it's own location in the module manager. But then, don't include it in your template. Since the URLs were generated from the menu, the breadcrumbs, modules, templates, etc., will continue to work properly.

Also, something for you to play with while your mind is wrapped around this complexity: there is a plugin called LoadModule that you are going to really dig. You can plant it in your article and tell it to load the modules for a certain position.



So, you can put a menu into your article that way - for example. If you are thinking of unique ways to provide navigation that get you away from traditional menus - LoadModule can be very helpful.

It's in the core, so, you already have it. Try it out!



Ted - this has been a lot of fun, thanks! Keep asking questions if you want,
Amy

Hi.. How do I keep my Joomla site Session and admin session infinite and will Fireboard be infinite too?

Amy,

Sorry for the delay. I'm on the road for the next week or so (a bit of business and pleasure) so my online time has been, and will be, a bit erratic.



But then I never would have dug deeper and learned so much more

Thanks for the new menu suggestion, as well as the tip on 'loadposition' - sounds interesting! I'll look into both of these and I'm sure I'll have some questions soon.



Now prepare yourself for a barage! LOL! No, seriously, you have been very, very helpful. Coming from a hand-coded HTML background it is a bit tough changing, not only the way of thinking, but learning a new program as well, especially one as in-depth as Joomla is. This has been very educational, therefore, like you said, a lot of fun! Thanks!

Hi Amy

A few days ago had posted a question on the Joomla 1.0 forum (didn't know where else to ask - have Joomla 1.5 installed but felt that in the 1.0 forum it had better chances of being answered) and was looking for pointers on how to plan my site.

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,216252.msg1008051.html#msg1008051

And then I happened to come across this post... and boy did it give me pointers !!!

Anyway will be reading it over carefully and try to figure out how to do what i wanted. The answer seems to be already there !!!
Would like to trouble you though if i get stuck somewhere  :P

btw while looking for answers i came across the following articles on Sections>Categories>Content Item which were very useful.....

http://www.dezinedepot.com/joomla/joomla-tutorials/learn-about-joomla-sections-categories-v1

http://www.easysiteguide.com/guides/joomla/plan-a-joomla-website.html

http://www.compassdesigns.net/tutorials/joomla-tutorials/a-beginners-guide-to-organizing-your-content.html

Thanks

Anirudh

Yes, feel free to ask questions. Hope you find it helpful.

The one disappointment I have with those guides is that they continue to use approaches that end up creating a three layer restraint. But, you get the basics, and that is good.
If I think I know so much, then I should write something and submit it to the User's Guide. 

But, yes, please give it some thought and ask questions. It might help come up with better approaches we can share as a guide.

Thanks...Amy