The Joomla! Forum ™

For a short article series about Opens Source communities on TXP Magazine, i like to ask you:

What makes an open source community a 'good' community for you?

Obviously a well organized forum is a precondition to build up a community but ahead of that, what are your expectations of a well driven open source community?

I did ask the same question on other OS forums/communities as well. Having been involved with OS projects for more than 3 years already myself, i am curious what other people think.

[TXP Mag is an online magazine i founded 2 years back when i was strongly involved with the blogCMS Textpattern. By now more authors joined and we like to write more about other recommended Open Source software and communities. Currently we go through a redesign and restructure content.]

btw. congrats on the Packt Pub Award!

joomla love  We are like brothers and sisters, we have arguments and disagreements, but we always kiss and make up. 

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I don't agree that a forum is a pre-requisite for a good os community. just look at debian. not a forum in sight. [they tend to use mailing lists and irc]

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"Exploited yesterday... Hacked tomorrow"
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I joined this community with no expectations other than ones of myself to grow, learn and contribute.  The experience thus far has been overwhelming and positive. 



I'd be interested to see some of the responses you got.  Care to share some links?

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Wendy Robinson
Joomla! Community Leadership Team member

Hi there 

i will def report back on who said what where....

Right now i am interested in some more precise answers like

* a 'good' os community is where i get recognition for my contributions

or

* Open and Accessible Leadership with an ear on community
* Transparency in development and direction

etc...

You know what i mean?

Actually I hope you aren't meaning what it looks like, it looks to me like you want to script, or spoon feed the answers.  I have never come across someone asking for people to respond to a survey, where they tell people how to answer.  Unless it was a straight 1 to 10 scale sort of survey where they ask how you feel and ask you to quantify it. 

As precise as I can get.. what makes a good OS community is the people that are involved.  The community from the top developer to the newest non-posting lurker is what makes a community.  Without the community there would be no open source anything.  The diversity of everyone from everywhere, from all walks of life coming together for a common good for everyone else.  The one thing that binds each and every person to each and every other person is the project.

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Co-author of the Official Joomla! Book http://officialjoomlabook.com
Marpo Multimedia http://marpomultimedia.com

An open source community that is a 'good' community for me is one where I am able to come as I am and contribute my gifts to the common good while benefiting from the gifts offered by others.

A while back, I blogged on a closely related topic trying to define what an open source community is. Also, I have a category on "community" that you might find material to help you with your research.

Mod note: removed self promoting link.

Good luck with your topic. What a good one - we are all trying to sort these out.

If you remember, please post the article location when it is published. I look forward to reading.

Amy

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http://Twitter.com/AmyStephen
http://www.alltogetherasawhole.org/

.. and yet we are successful without any public mailing lists and official IRC channel.

What should this teach you?
That all projects are different and what works for one, may or may not work for the other. So it's not the method of community interaction that makes or breaks a project. Could the people make a difference? Perhaps how the project is managed? NEVER some will say, the Core Team are, and I quote "stupid", "not listening".. and many other things....
Seriously though, we're not perfect, but I'm constantly disgusted at how little credit is given in the tone of note, posts, blogs etc towards the team who work so hard to bring everyone Joomla, the WHOLE team, all WG members included. Those are the people I'll defend to the end!

*You're all* (if the cap fits, wear it) happy to moan and pick faults with Joomla all the time. The facts are, we ARE a sucessful open source project, and we are doing a great job. History shows we WILL NOT stand still. You can join in with the current established status quo (*reference below) and contribute, or you (plural, again if the cap fits..) can choose to see only negatives and be the very ones who foster and continue to promote a 'them and us' attitude but your negative and argumentative posts and participation.

In any case, I'll do a blog post on this sometime, to share my opinions and thoughts. I think I have a fair bit of an understanding with regard to guiding and helping to share in the building of a 'good' open source community. No, GREAT open source community!

* reference

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Brad Baker - Follow me on Google+
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..somewhere in this hospital the anguished oink of a pig man cries out for help..

Do you know how much I love Joomla!, Brad? Do you have any freaking idea how much I care for every single member of this community whether we agree or disagree? You were not alone this past year, my friend. There were MANY of us helping community members for long hours. Making certain they understood how to build websites - how to back them up - how to secure them.

Brad - IMO - you *personally* are responsible for Joomla! standing up after one year of excruciatingly painful growth. You are our rock and you are here for us day after day after day - first thing in the morning on the other half of the earth until late at night. We would not be here without you, Brad. We would have fallen apart. It is no lie and anyone who has spent anytime at all in these forums would agree - you may be a stubborn man - but, thank God you are since we needed stability in this first year of birth and growth.

You get not near the PRAISE and the THANKS that you deserve and most of the reason you don't is because, dammit, Brad, you are uncomfortable with it.

I know the developers are laying the code. I know that the Quality and Testing group is closely reviewing the developer work - and now that I know where they talk - I see them insisting on TOP results from the developers.  I know the documenters are writing guides and help screens. I know the translators are all busy taking this hard work and transforming it for the use by others. I know that the PR folks are broadcasting the availability of Joomla! - this amazing, world class, award winning CMS free-of-charge and free-as-in-liberty to all of the world's people.

But, there are not over 70,000 people using Joomla! if it weren't for the Moderators and the Forum Administrators. You guys are not perfect but you are WAY UP THERE in terms of performance and you have NOTHING but my respect and my gratitude.

Joomla! is the definition of what a "good" open source community is to me. I am able to come as I am (and that is a HUGE mouthful), I am able to contribute what gifts I have (even if it's not much), and I get so much freaking benefit from this community, I learned more than I would have learned in ten masters programs at the University, both in terms of who I am and how I interact well and not-so-good with others and what is going on in this world of free software and an exploding Internet.

I could go on and on and on...

I love Joomla!, Brad. Jenny and Brian - dammit - I love this project. I was with you all year. I did my best. We all did. And, together, some of us WAY more than others, but, look what we managed to do.

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http://Twitter.com/AmyStephen
http://www.alltogetherasawhole.org/

That was exactly my point. There is no one way to build a successfull community

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"Exploited yesterday... Hacked tomorrow"
Blog http://brian.teeman.net/
Joomla Hidden Secrets http://hiddenjoomlasecrets.com/

Sorry but that is the best answer I have seen....

No not really ... I'm a member of any OS projects and communities and contributer to quite a few...


Absolutely not ... the best OS projects are where people do not seek recognition indeed this is one of the more destructive elements in any OS project.  Many OS projects attract leeches, people who are constantly seeking some recognition for what they have done... and seeking to subvert the project into their personal self promotional image or pre-conceived ideas about what the project is. 

just my 2c

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Getting back to the original question... "What makes an open source community a 'good' community for you?"

Personally it's to do with with nothing and everything all at the same time. I could just have easily fallen into a rugby community or a yachting community but as chance happened, it was Joomla! (Mambo at the time). Ultimately is about having a bit of fun, a past time... why do people collect things or play sport?

I think the moment you start over analysing it will be when its stops being fun and quite possibly when it ceases to be a "good community for you".

So... jump on board, go along for a ride. If you like it you'll  have another go, if you don't you'll move on to the next ride.... nothing lost but you may be a little bit wiser.

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http://www.cloudum.com Perth's Joomla! Development
http://www.nooku.org Home of Nooku Framework (koowa) the RAD development framework for Joomla!.

What makes a OS community good to me? I think the better question would be what IS an open source community...A Good Community is no different for OS than it is for real life...
What that community does and how the community chooses a direction is the only real difference...In real life we need politics and elections to choose a direction and everyone in the community is equal. In OS this is not the case and can't be because the direction is tied to a product whose direction can only be decided by the developers who are making it!

Here are some thoughts of mine on this topic:
Mod Note:  Removed link to website. Text is located here in this split thread: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,117441.0.html

What makes a good community depends on how you DEFINE community in regards to OS...
you can have a great OS community that consists of nothing but developers of the OS project. Success in OS (and of that community) does not depend on how many users use the project but how well the project does the job it was developed to do! It may only solve an obscure need but no matter how widespread the need is if it does a job and does it well then it is a successful project!

Other people define community as anyone who identifies themselves with a particular OS project. I signed up and registered on the message board of the project so I am a member of that community. This in essence is true to an extent but at it's heart it is really a SEPERATE community from the original community of developers who made the OS project. And it has a very different function (Passive Role or pubcom) in the project as opposed to the (Active or Projcom) role of the developer community.

In both cases what makes a GOOD OS Community is people working together and helping each other do what they are trying to do...
In the Projcom it is developers working and helping other developers with particular problems and coming to a consensus on how best to integrate the work of each developer to work in harmony with the rest of the work being done. They also as a community decide what direction the project should take and where each developer would like to see the project go!

In the Pubcom it is Users helping other users with problems and showing tricks they have learned. sharing their past experience with other users who don't have that experience yet. Pubcom has an advisory role to the Devcom where the people who use the project can suggest things they would like it to do. But that advise does not require the Projcom to act on it unless the projcom decides that it an issue they wish to address.

So what makes a good OS Community? Well it can't exist without a Projcom...It can be improved by but does not really require a Pubcom!



AMEN!
If your contribution is worth recognizing it is because you did it without expectations of being rewarded. should you be rewarded for charity work if you expect to get paid for it?
I recognize the developers of a project and their contributions because their contribution is doing something for me without asking for a payback. It is this generosity that I reward! the best OS projects are made not by people looking for recognition but by people who have a need that isn't being met and decide to meet their own need by creating a project. After that need has been met they then GIVE IT AWAY to others who might have the same need. I recognize the fact they did a good job and their generosity in sharing that work. But I think the real issue here doesn't relate to this coding aspect...

What IS a CONTRIBUTION to the OS community?
Is simply helping users a contribution? to the one who got helped...yes! to the community as a whole? Not really...

It is my opinion that a 3PD who creates a commercial program still contributes more to the community than someone who simply helps others in the community....the only reason is they are providing code that expands the use of the project...they are adding capability whereas help simply helps a particular user make use of the capability that already exists. Sure it is a contribution but it has minimal impact on the community as a whole!

What makes a BAD community....well I could go on forever on that topic....
I won't...Too many people here will identify themselves with anything I say on that topic and pester the mods into trying to edit out the parts they feel guilty of!
So I won't go there!

very interesting comments about recognition. reminds me of Maimonedes and his 7 levels of charity

_________________
"Exploited yesterday... Hacked tomorrow"
Blog http://brian.teeman.net/
Joomla Hidden Secrets http://hiddenjoomlasecrets.com/

oops on checking there are eight.
There are eight degrees in the giving of charity one higher than the other:
He, who gives grudgingly, reluctantly or with regret.
He who gives less than he should, but gives graciously.
He who gives what he should, but only after he is asked.
He who gives before he is asked.
He who gives, without knowing to whom he gives, although the recipient knows the identity of the donor.
He who gives without making his
identity known.
He who gives without knowing to whom he gives, and the recipient not knowing from whom he receives.
He who helps a fellowman to support himself by a gift, or a loan, or by
finding employment for him, thus
helping him to become self-supporting.

Maimonedes

_________________
"Exploited yesterday... Hacked tomorrow"
Blog http://brian.teeman.net/
Joomla Hidden Secrets http://hiddenjoomlasecrets.com/

No problem Jenny, I will post the text of my article after this post since it is rather lengthy....
It's just easier than trying to shoehorn it into the previous post or this one....

Yes Brian there are levels of generosity where the intent and the expectations of reward make some efforts more charitable and commendable than others...Someone who donates turkeys to a soup kitchen for free should be commended more than someone who simply sells turkeys to them at cost...
One is making a bigger sacrifice than the other and therefore deserve the better commendation.

How this compares to an OS project is that a developer might spends hours of every day writing and debugging code that someone can use...But someone who simply offers help to a user might spend one hour on those users a day. Between the amount of people affected and the amount of time spent, a developer deserves a MUCH GREATER acknowledgement of gift than the one who gave user support. And in most cases the user support is given because at some point the user who helped got help themselves from someone else...the pay it forward principle!
I consider the contributions by the Pubcom to be a form of THANKS to the developers not a contribution to the project in and of itself! It is in many cases self serving even if unknowingly...By helping other users that means less users the developers themselves have to help. Which leaves more time to code which means better product for everyone including the one who reduced the workload....So they benefit themselves as much as they benefit everyone else when they do this!

the key point in OS though is that you can elevate yourself to developer status by simply picking up an editor and contributing code. No user in pubcom is restricted from adding functions to the project and earning that greater thanks from the masses.

Ok my article is here: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,117441.0.html

Mod note: edited post to link to split topic.

Just my two cents here. I expect of an Open Source Community:

a) as a "community" (the holding of certain attitudes and interests in common), the clear definition of the interest and the ability to become (or be a part of) a "metacommunity", where different communities sharing the main interest can interact.

b) as related to "Open Source" (http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php and the FSF as separated political camps within the same community), the advocacy and accomplishment of the Open Source principles in every facet of the community.

Having a clear definition of the main interest, people is able to identify those communities that better fit in their own interest. Having the ability to become a metacommunity an Open Source Comunity can take advantage of all the people involved. The accomplishment of the Open Source principles strengthens the communities.

As an example, and taking in mind that we are still a young metacommunity (yes, I do believe so: my main interest is Joomla! but I don´t share with some of you other interests, like the non-english speaking communities, the spanish communities, the translation and the licensing policies), the Joomla! community is a a "good" Open Source Community for me. But we are still a young Open Source Community and there are a lot of things to do!

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Hi there,
thanks for your answers so far.

It seems the question : What makes a 'good' OS community for you? - emphasis on YOU - is hard to answer for many people. Some rant on OS communities in general or on gratitude for devs.... the thread had to be even split into two...

Okay, let´s say, you have one sentence for an answer, what would you say? Please no rants anymore. Just specific personal short answers.

In one sentence then  :
"Patience and willingness from supporters that help newbies to become supporters with patience and willingness for helping newbies"

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Ole Bang Ottosen
Nye joomla! kurser. Lær joomla 2.5 af erfaren underviser www.ot2sen.dk
Dansk Joomla! support websted - www.joomla.dk

Hi all,

thanks for all the great answers! I just published a poll on the topic (-> 'good' OS community) on TXPMag
http://txpmag.com/article/poll-what-mak ... ty-for-you

If you like, please feel free to take part and vote: select up to three statements you agree with! Not more than 3 please .
(I published the poll as i noticed that people really have difficulties nailing it down...)

You are funny! lol...

Those were very good options, how could we possibly keep to only THREE choices? You are making this hard! 

So, hopefully, even given our rambling, dysfunctional ways you were able to easily figure out that this community matters very much to each of us. And, I think you were able to articulate from our indirect responses, why.

Dude - you did very well. It is much appreciated!

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http://www.alltogetherasawhole.org/