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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:03 pm 
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Hi,

I'm currently working on a website using joomla 1.5. A few month ago September 2007 was the planned release for the final version.
It seems to be delayed now and my customers start getting annoying because the site is still not online.
Is there a planned release date for the final version at the moment?

greez
achim~


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:21 am 
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Hi
IMHO, YOU did bad.
Joomla! 1.5 isn't stable, and it is stated EVERYWHERE that it should not be used for production or live websites.

I'd go with the latest stable in the 1.0.x branch, and once 1.5 is released as stable, to upgrade it ...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:41 am 
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quiquedcode wrote:
Hi
IMHO, YOU did bad.

Hi,
Well i thought the stable version will be finished in september, as it was stated in august. I understand that it can take longer as expected, i'm just curious about the fact that there is no new planned release date. :pop
quiquedcode wrote:
Joomla! 1.5 isn't stable, and it is stated EVERYWHERE that it should not be used for production or live websites.

That was the case previous, I can not find such a note in the rc3 release note.
quiquedcode wrote:
I'd go with the latest stable in the 1.0.x branch, and once 1.5 is released as stable, to upgrade it ...

That whould be more or less a complete redesign, because i did all the coding for 1.5 using mvc whenever possible and it was a great fun by the way.
So going back to 1.0.x is the last option.
I guess i'lll have to stick with rc3 with fixes from svn and help the community getting 1.5 ready.  8)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:05 am 
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Achim,

I'm in exactly the same position - well I've been helped by client delays but that's a bonus.

My opinion is to try (it's hard I know) to keep an offline mirror of the site and test every svn update locally before patching the online site. I have a couple of weeks before launch date so I can break it if needs be BUT once we are into launch then it will be a very rigorous approach to testing each update and rolling it out overnight etc to create the minimum downtime!

I've found the latest svn updates to RC3 to be stable on my platform so far and clients are looking at a site in preview - so changes are being made one at a time! It is my own extensions and other 3rd party extensions that are going to require the most work and careful monitoring!

I too can not wait for the stable release but I want to see a finished product not something that our friends in Redmond would have us put up with  ;)

I can only implore everyone to review their security practices and be ultra careful about letting any version of J! into the wild - that should go without saying, but especially while in RC stage.

Jon.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:34 pm 
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achim71 wrote:
... That was the case previous, I can not find such a note in the rc3 release note ...


Don't search for a note, just don't use it in live/production websites. Just my opinion
I always wait until stable releases, and well, I also wait 1 or 2 weeks more, because sometimes bugs appear (because all users download this release) and some patches are released then, etc.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 pm 
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quiquedcode wrote:
achim71 wrote:
... That was the case previous, I can not find such a note in the rc3 release note ...


Don't search for a note, just don't use it in live/production websites. Just my opinion
I always wait until stable releases, and well, I also wait 1 or 2 weeks more, because sometimes bugs appear (because all users download this release) and some patches are released then, etc.


Fully agree.  ;)

There were recent changes in code to improve memory usage and the release is delayed as all features have again to be tested with these changes.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:17 pm 
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Thank you all for your replies.

These memory changes sound like the final release will still take a while. I guess the best thing will be stepping back to 1.0.x with stripped down features to make my customers happy and wait for 1.5 final for the full blown launch.

achim~


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:27 pm 
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achim71 wrote:
That whould be more or less a complete redesign, because i did all the coding for 1.5 using mvc whenever possible and it was a great fun by the way.
So going back to 1.0.x is the last option.
I guess i'lll have to stick with rc3 with fixes from svn and help the community getting 1.5 ready.  8)


Also keep a list of bugs that you consider "mission critical" in order for your clients website to work.

Document, submit bug reports, fix them yourself and submit patches, offer bounties on parts you can't figure out to have someone fix.

You might not get to a completely stable 1.5 release, but you can get to "good enough" for your own use.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:41 pm 
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infograf768 wrote:
Fully agree.  ;)

There were recent changes in code to improve memory usage and the release is delayed as all features have again to be tested with these changes.


Offtopic:
Long time no seen Jean-Marie !
I remember the old times when discussing about official spanish translations, problems with other translations groups, molok (I miss him) etc. ;D

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:09 pm 
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quiquedcode wrote:
IMHO, YOU did bad.
Joomla! 1.5 isn't stable, and it is stated EVERYWHERE that it should not be used for production or live websites.


Are you serious? This is the attitude presented to Joomla users? Yes, for sure, do not use a pre-release version of software for a live site, that is always good advice. But that's not what achim71 did. His site isn't live yet; he's merely been working with the 1.5 code base since that was planned to be released in fall 2007. He never planned to go live with the site in pre-stable version. He saw the planned release date for the final version listed as September 2007, and worked with that. I think that's pretty reasonable. He was creating a brand new web site to launch in late 2007; why shouldn't he have gone with Joomla 1.5, the newest version, that was supposed to be ready by then?

Now it's mid October, and the release date is TBA, and when anyone asks about it or complains about it in the forums, from what I've seen, they're told that they are being unreasonable for expecting an answer to that question since this is an open source project with unpaid developers with other jobs. We all understand the nature of the project, but why is a general time line too much to ask for, especially when there had apparently been an approximated final version release date of September given to the public? We all understand that deadlines sometimes have to get pushed back. But Joomla is a CMS system that is widely used, including in commercial environments. I think it's irresponsible to not have some sort of timeline set up, and to shrug off questions about its status.

And if not a timeline with dates, at least stick to the roadmap. Since when is there an RC4? The number of RCs keeps changing, and this has been really frustrating, as I, too, am working on a site using version 1.5 that needs to go live at the end of this calendar year. There were not this many RCs planned in the roadmap when we started this project, which was one thing we based our timeline on, and now we are too far along into development to use version 1.0, nor do we want to anyway.

infograf768 wrote:
There were recent changes in code to improve memory usage and the release is delayed as all features have again to be tested with these changes.


Any idea how much of a delay we can expect this to cause? I understand it would be an estimation only.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:46 pm 
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Moderator removed my earlier comment on this thread.

Since, I am not allowed to send personal message (No explanation for this on the error page).

Here is my reply to the moderator:

Please get a sense of humor.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:49 pm 
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doejohn6969 wrote:
Since, I am not allowed to send personal message (No explanation for this on the error page).


... as the rules you agreed to (you said you read them) explained, you need to have at least 5 posts before you can use the PM system. You can now send PM's since you have 5 posts ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:02 am 
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TracyDoesPHP wrote:

infograf768 wrote:
There were recent changes in code to improve memory usage and the release is delayed as all features have again to be tested with these changes.


Any idea how much of a delay we can expect this to cause? I understand it would be an estimation only.


Alas, no crystal ball here.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:45 am 
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infograf768 wrote:
Fully agree.  ;)

There were recent changes in code to improve memory usage and the release is delayed as all features have again to be tested with these changes.

Is there a thread about this memory issue? I wounder why such a modification was made in such an late state (rc) of development.
Was the previous implementation that buggy?
Also i noticed some api changes between rc1 and rc2 (did not update to rc3) affecting my extentions . I assumend that the api is frozen in an rc state of a project.
I'm not in the position to blame the developers for that, because I was part of the gentoo-linux developers during the pre 1.0 stage back in 2001. We had at least a dozend of 1.0 rc version and we also had pre versions of the rc's.
Unfortunately there is no version label for a project state at whom the project as a whole is stable but the api is still subject of modification.
I'd recommend you add a note to the release notes that the api is still subject to modifications whom can affect extentions and bigger modifications are still possible even if they are not fixing fatal bugs. Just to avoid confusion.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:31 pm 
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http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-d ... 3de74d4a53

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:52 pm 
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In other words... users are becoming nervous about the stable release date  >:( (end-users nature ;)), but it does not mean that we are not support all of you guys in your efforts  :-*

.... but please hurry up.... :P


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:56 pm 
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infograf768 wrote:

Thanks for making things more transparent. This legacy mode speed issue is something that's better be fixed before stable. I can completely understand the decision to implement the _autoload thing and related api changes before 1.5 stable, the mayority of users will benefit from that change.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:09 pm 
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TracyDoesPHP wrote:

infograf768 wrote:
There were recent changes in code to improve memory usage and the release is delayed as all features have again to be tested with these changes.


Any idea how much of a delay we can expect this to cause? I understand it would be an estimation only.


infograf768 wrote:
Alas, no crystal ball here.


Based on the information you wrote, it seems that the delay we're talking about here is due to the developers having to re-test the entire app due to some new features. Surely someone who has helped with Joomla development (this may not necessarily be infograf768, but anyone reading this thread) must know approximately how long testing the Joomla app takes, or has taken in the past.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:36 pm 
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Can I just add - the reply to this post said to use a 1.0.x stable -

IMHO 1.0.13 is NOT stable anyway.  This has a $task issue which has been patched (good work guys), but led me to start dev sites on 1.5, as it seems far more stable than 1.0 (and looks wayyyy cooler!).  My flatmate is a programmer, and he never uses the term stable, just working.  I can see his logic in that there is no truly stable software.

For the record, speed has not been an issue (using Joomla! 1.5.0 Production/Stable) although I do have a possible bug with css output on mainmenu - how do I report it and where?

R

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:21 pm 
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I thought I would cross-quotoe this post from Jonah on the Google Joomla Dev discussion site:

Quote:
For the coming weeks an months we will be releasing RC's using a
release early, release often strategy. With intervals of about 4/5
weeks. How many RC's it will take us to get 1.5 stable, I don't know
and to be honest I don't care. As long as the next RC is more stable
as this one and so on I'm confident we will get there. It will be done
when it's done.
( On Oct 12, 9:36 pm )
http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-devel/browse_thread/thread/65abbe73434f1bef

I think this is an important paragraph of text, as it should throw some water on people clamoring for a "stable" release of Joomla 1.5 in the next month.

We should take from this that Joomla is going through it's biggest development change ever, and end-users (like myself) should just step back, and take a deep breath.

We should realise that the organism that is Joomla is an organic, evolving group effort. It is a project, not a product.*

Either you watch interestedly, making forum posts, eagerly awaiting a new release, or you roll up your sleeves and join a Working Group and make a tangible contribution.

Anybody who has made plans on launching websites based on the release of Joomla 1.5 should take stock and make plans on desired features, and not on saving a few weeks redesign 6 months down the track.

Guarded apologies for my rambling, it is very late in Melbourne, and I may have been drinking...

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http://www.joomla.org/component/option,com_jd-wp/Itemid,105/p,427/

edited for debauched spelling

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Last edited by nhudell on Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:59 am 
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I guess we all just have to have a little patience. I too am hoping to launch a site at the end of the year. For now, I am testing my designs, and mods with the current release to ensure that everything works as it should. I would rather the stable be fully tested for reliability, speed, & security rather than having to continiously update my sites with patches that will inturn have to be tested by me first.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:52 pm 
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Although it requires patience, I think in the end everyone will prefer to have a stable release that is actually stable to having a release which is going to need to quickly be followed by a 1.5.1 release.  I'm not a developer but I think Johan's post really helped explain the process the development team is currently using.  A lot of us who are impatient prefer the early and often model, though it is definitely a change from what has been the team's practice and, as the user community, we have to adjust a bit. I think that is because they feel they have reached a stage in the development cycle where this approach makes sense and we just have to trust them on this.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:18 pm 
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I totally agree with you mcsmom, we should absolutely trust the core developers on the way that the release schedule is designed. Nobody wants an official 1.5 release that is not ready for prime time.

However, I think that there is a big communication problem here. A large group of end users and third party developers have  the feeling of being out of the loop on the state of Joomla! 1.5.

Everyone understands that the development of this new Joomla! version is a radical re-write, and no one expects it to be like going from 1.0.12 to 1.0.13. Joomla! users are engaged and understanding, but over the last few months, there has been this false impression that the release of RC2 and RC3 meant that a stable release was imminent. This is clearly not the case, but this is ok! People simply need to be part of the communication loop.

Case in point, Jonah posted an illuminating and succinct  message about the near future development of Joomla 1.5. But it was not a Joomla! News blog post, or a sticky in the forums, no one knew until a Mod (cheers infograf!) had the idea to post a link to the Google discussions.

To sum up, I think general users and third party developers simply have a very strong interest and curiosity about the development of Joomla! 1.5, and some development update postings on the Joomla Official Blogs, would go a long way, and be eaten up happily by all concerned.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:55 am 
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@richrock

If you want to report a problem, the place most people go is th Q+T forum, under Joomla! Development, 1.5.

@nhudell

I always think that communication is something that can be improved, just like everything else. I don't think people who are serious third party developers have been out of the loop at all, because they all follow the changelog closely and read the develop group. (And people who are serious third party developers are also submitting bug fixes and useful comments to the development team if for no other reason than that they are invested in having the strongest possible product.)  But I do think that for better or worse you are right that there are at least two other groups of people out there who aren't necessarily engaged in development in that way. First, there are early adopters and second there are third party developers who do not do Joomla! development as their primary activity. I think those groups tend to get most of their news from the forums and blog posts and it might be useful to think about how to communicate with them more effectively. I don't think that is something the development team should necessarily be asked to be in charge of, however. An enterprising person could probably make a nice contribution by running a news service with that kind of news. I be a lot of people would pick up that feed.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:24 am 
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@ mcsmom

I took your point about making a contribution by running a news service for small development news that would be of use to general users, and here it is:

[Look at my sig.  ;)]

It's just a simple wordpress site, and the first story is about RC4 issues from the Google Groups discussions.

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Last edited by infograf768 on Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:58 am 
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nhudell wrote:
However, I think that there is a big communication problem here. A large group of end users and third party developers have  the feeling of being out of the loop on the state of Joomla! 1.5.


I think we are having a communication issue, as well. I've got SEVERAL Joomla! v 1.5 sites up that are important to the people whose sites these are - and everything is going just fine!

Seriously, what is everyone waiting for? RC 3 is good to go, folks. Just like any other website you build - get your backup and restore processes fired up and working and you will be fine.

All the best,
Amy :)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:07 am 
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Hi Amy, I suspect what is holding people back is the concern about running 1.5, and then needing to constantly upgrade their Joomla install through the SVN, as is often the best and fastest way to solve many issues with 1.5 (at least from reading the forums).

The other big issue seems to be that many third party developers are waiting for the "stable" relase to bring out their apps, or in some cases, just to start developing them.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:15 am 
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You are probably right. I was also waiting and waiting and then I realized. Hey! There is no reason for me to wait. And, I'm not. I do resync the production sites from time to time - I've had to back out a change or two, but, if I can help it - and I think I can - I will not go back to the 1.0.x series because v 1.5 is so very sweet. I don't need every gadget under the sun and am impressed what can be built just with the core. There are a few extensions I used, but after last summer's security problems with third party extensions, I have learned to be more sensible with my choices, anyway.

Joomla! v 1.5 RC 3 is in very good shape. It really is.

Thanks for your community news service - that rocks. Be careful, though. Once you show your willingness to contribute to the community, you might become very popular and involved.  ;)

Amy :)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:52 pm 
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nhudell wrote:
To sum up, I think general users and third party developers simply have a very strong interest and curiosity about the development of Joomla! 1.5, and some development update postings on the Joomla Official Blogs, would go a long way, and be eaten up happily by all concerned.


I fully agree and I apologise for the lack of information ! Please see : http://www.joomla.org/component/option, ... 105/p,430/ for a first effort, I'll add a more technical update about RC3 in the coming days. First dinner time with the Hungarian community. Don't wanna let that one pass ;)

@nhudell : PS. I'll be a frequent visitor of your new blog, might even link to it from time to time. :) Keep up the good work ! It's really appreciated.

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Last edited by Jinx on Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:29 pm 
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richrock wrote:
My flatmate is a programmer, and he never uses the term stable, just working.  I can see his logic in that there is no truly stable software.


I've seen some versions of 'Hello World' that were pretty stable  ;D

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